[Aptorian]

Baudin was almost ascended through the fires of thyrlan/the dragon immunsystem-paintshop. Hood was in need of a new herald.

If the Wolves were gonna use Toc for a position they would have come to Hoods gate and bargained for his soul, they didn't, Toc stepped through and his soul is now lying on a heap of ash somewhere inisde Hoods path while he dreams of flowers, and bambies and bigboosumed women.

[Urb]

Aptorian;232608 said:

Baudin was almost ascended through the fires of thyrlan/the dragon immunsystem-paintshop. Hood was in need of a new Knight.

Corrected (I can be such a wiseass some times )

Toc is coming back. K'rul told him he would cross paths with Kilava again in the future, and he has not done so yet. Convert damn you. Stop this foolishness .

[Aptorian]

Actually they met again, she stood twenty feet or so away from his corpse. Not the most pleasant of reunions, but the EGs aren't nice people.

Tocs dead, dead, dead

[Urb]

Ah, I see.
Well, to me that doesn't count. Toc was with Hood at the time. Only Anaster's body was left. I'll leave it at that.

[Aptorian]

Perhaps one day Killava will take a shortcut through Hoods Path and bump into Toc.

It will be akward, Toc being a rodden corpse and all. Kilava will decline Tocs generous offer of a cup of ash and plate of dust. Toc will ask her to give his best wishes to Tool and she'll depart.

Toc returns to lying around all day on a pile of corpses.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;232575 said:

He had no positions of note, no special power needed, no alliances with gods.

Urb's already been on top of this one, but I just wanted to reiterate how wrong it was:

It's wrong.

Toc was BFF with a God of War, the First Sword of the T'lan Imass and the Master of the Deck. He's been a Mortal Sword. He knows things - Redmask's secrets among them. And even in death, the Winter Wolves maintain a hold over him - and now we find that Hood does too, and always has.

Is there not enough to make a return from the dead likely? I haven't even mentioned yet that he has DONE IT BEFORE.

[Mentalist]

Toc was a decent archer, he mastered Imass Stonecraft, he was a Mortal Swword of the wolves, his spirit went Riding with his God, and he could see visions. That's plenty enough to qualify him as "useful" in my book.

Baudin was an expert at survival, as far as old-school Talons went, he got annealed in holy fires, then died.

Really, by comparison, Toc is way better off.
Also, as Apt mentioned, Hood is indeed in need of new herald.

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;232704 said:

Urb's already been on top of this one, but I just wanted to reiterate how wrong it was:

It's wrong.

Toc was BFF with a God of War, the First Sword of the T'lan Imass and the Master of the Deck. He's been a Mortal Sword. He knows things - Redmask's secrets among them. And even in death, the Winter Wolves maintain a hold over him - and now we find that Hood does too, and always has.

Is there not enough to make a return from the dead likely? I haven't even mentioned yet that he has DONE IT BEFORE.

Meh, I'll argue against this. I seem to be disagreeing with people a lot lately... strange, I'm not drinking enough beer of late.

As I mentioned earlier, Tocs visions/knowledge come from Kru'll or the Obelisk force that gave him the exploding arrows.

Just because you know people doesn't make you special, it's not like namedropping is gonna get you into the heavenly banquets.

That whole mortal sword thing, if I remember RG right, is something Toc himself shrugs at. He was never any good at it, it wasn't a role he assumed or cared for. He didn't evolve into a werewolf ala Gruntles transformation.

He hasn't "really" died before RG. When he was thrown into chaos he was grabed by Kru'll (al least that is my understanding) and dropped off at Morn. When he speared himself in Coral, his soul was set free and immediatly shoved into Anasters empty husk (probably by Kru'll again but it might have been the (damn) wolves)

The only thing I find of note is his Stonemanipulation ability, which I wish we heard more of, according to Tool it sounded like a big deal.

Please stay dead Toc.

[Mentalist]

you thought wrong
Toc found himself in the warren of chaos, lying there, being unconscious. that's where he was approached by the long-lost Togg, the wolf of Winter, who went inside him. and then he emerged at Morn
If his visions were granted by K'rul, that makes him even more special.

also, he did die: he ran his heart through that sharp beam thing at Coral. his death was necessary to release Togg.
I assumed that the exploding arrows came from the Imass stonecraft that Tool taught him. (stones being one of the focal points of the Imass culture, it seems).

All in all, Toc did more than enough to warrant his return. The fact that he at least 3(4?) gods have vested their interests in him.

[Dolorous Menhir]

kud13;232724 said:

also, he did die: he ran his heart through that sharp beam thing at Coral.

I don't want to encourage Apt's annoying insistence that the obvious isn't, but I see his point regarding the deaths.

What I think he is pointing out is that, although Toc's body ceased to live at Coral, his soul did not pass through Hood's Gate. It did after his RG death (right?). That's the standard for death in this series, not "did his heart stop beating".

Apart from that, I agree with you kud. I think Apt has adopted stubborn rejection as a new hobby.

[Aptorian]

Like the Paran thing I see what people mean, I just... I really want Toc to stay dead because I didn't like him that much in the first place.

There, I said it.

On the topic of death, yeah, I'd say no one is dead before their soul has passed through hoods gate. SO Toc is dead, dead, dead.

[Mentalist]

AHA!!!!!
Tremble in fear, Apt, for:
RG, Trade paterback, pg 776!!
"Toc the younger tried to halt again. 'Hood, a question - please.'
The god stopped, looked down at the mortal
'Hood, why do I still have only one eye/'
the God of Death, Reaper of Souls, made no reply. He had been wondering that himself
Damned wolves

so, when we last leave him, Toc is yet to cross the gate. HENCE, HE LIVES!!!!!!!!!!

[Optimus Prime]

I agree...we NEVER SAW him go through the gate.

*I also don't think we've seen the last of Trull*

[Aptorian]

Damn you, people. DAMN YOU!!!

Stop using my own logics against me.

[Optimus Prime]

MUWAHHAHAHAHA....I think people want Toc to come back so much because we've seen him go through so much...he is in a very real way the "most human" character...if that makes any sense. in many times..he finds himself in situations which are totally overwhelming

He is also immensely likable...that is rare in Erikson's world...someone who isn't completely flawed in some way

[Aptorian]

Xander;232799 said:

MUWAHHAHAHAHA....I think people want Toc to come back so much because we've seen him go through so much...he is in a very real way the "most human" character...if that makes any sense. in many times..he finds himself in situations which are totally overwhelming

He is also immensely likable...that is rare in Erikson's world...someone who isn't completely flawed in some way

By the end I was a bit tired of his world weary pessimistic view. I was also worried when a handful of poems suddenly arrived in the start of the chapters.

He could have used a visit from the God of Prozac

[Optimus Prime]

Heh...or the god of optometry..but i digress

[Mentalist]

Muahahahahaha!!!

APT LOSES, I WIN!!!!!

now, if SE would just say in an interview "Paran is an Ascendant"....

EDIT: for the sake of not spamming, Darujhistan Tyrant will be a demented EG who forgot who he is. No factual backup, totally crazy theory

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;232801 said:

By the end I was a bit tired of his world weary pessimistic view. I was also worried when a handful of poems suddenly arrived in the start of the chapters.

He could have used a visit from the God of Prozac

Suddenly? Toc's poems as chapter openers go all the way back to GotM.

[Optimus Prime]

That's true.

Anybody think we'll see a lot more about the Gods/Ascendants in this book...like more coming out of the woodwork? And where is Grizzin Farl!?!? Dead? A proxy? Selling Cookies on Assail?!