[Terez]

Grief, on Oct 3 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

Terez, do you deliberately try to be obtuse, irritating, and seem to ignore what people say on these religious debates, or does it just sort of happen?

I didn't ignore what anyone said. Osric voiced a common misunderstanding of what atheists believe. I corrected it. Then Obdi posted some redundant dictionary definitions.

Grief said:

Atheists do not believe in god, at all, and are certain one doesn't exist.

This is not true. Most atheists aren't "certain" that one doesn't exist, but rather see no reason to believe in something that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Those that are certain that no deity exists are more accurately referred to as "anti-theists".

[James]

Christianity, however sometimes i find that i seem to make jokes that are almost over-the-line. Probably in retrospect should have chosen "other", probably better as sometimes i couldn't care less, but love to have theoretical talks on this stuff.
i think the song "If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife)" by Tim Minchin,best sums up my view, or views.

[Terez]

Jimms, on Oct 4 2008, 03:34 AM, said:

i think the song "If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife)" by Tim Minchin,best sums up my view, or views.

I don't know the song, but the title (minus the wife bit) sums up mine fairly well also.

[James]

My idea would be to Youtube it, you'll get at least one laugh out of it.
Ill stack my life on that.

Jimms

[Obdigore]

frookenhauer, on Oct 3 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

Damnit, I thought I was being original. It really has all happened before and god does really exist...I BELIEVE! All I need to do now is build my Synamosqathedral and begin the incantations. /crap idea

I take it you are a staunch athiest Obdi. I'm obviously borderline agnostic leaning towards full blown proof led belief, which lets face it probably won't happen until the big day...Er, maybe I should remove the word obviously.

how about you Gem? I won't insult you by picking the wrong deity...

I've stayed away from this end of the forum for a long time and only the events of today have made me want to come up and voice my personal/shared opinions. I generally keep religion at barge-pole length away, its too frikkin sensitive a subject.

Erm, my take is that nothing has been proven, and if there is some sort of deity who would allow things that happen, its not one I would worship or even respect.

More Agnostic than Athiest.

Gem is a christian I believe.

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer,

Obdi is right, I'm a Christian. However there are tons of Christians out there that I don't feel I have anything in common with other than the 'Jesus is the son of God' thingy. It goes a long way sure, but it doesn't say anything about how I live my life or what I think on certain subjects, or how I see other people and or how I see science and other ideas etc.

I think the thing that gets to me sometimes is the generalization that I get from people when I tell them what I believe. I don't try to generalize atheists or people from other religions, so I don't get why people have to do that with me.

I know the faith is like a blinding light to people, and that it makes them not being able to focus on anything except that in a debate, but seriously, there are limits to how much stupidity that should be allowed because of it.

The same goes for Christians that are blinded by what they think is non-righteous or whatever - I sometimes don't get the non-critical thinking of some Christians.

Bottom line, people take themselves and what they believe too seriously. The infinite stupidity of thinking you know everything there is to know and that everyone else is a retard because they don't agree with you is astounding. When I attack someone in a debate I always attack their arguments, not them, and if anything else happens you can be sure I didn't mean for it come out like that. However I am allergic to stupidity. You might see me throwing missiles at things I think are clearly stupid. That doesn't mean I think the person is stupid - quite the contrary - I don't argue with people I think are stupid, because they're not worth the effort.

Don't you find it fun to be challenged?

[frookenhauer]

Ah, we're on the same boat then Obdi. I'd like to point out that if God did prove he/she/er existed then, I would subscribe to the religion God pointed at, it would be the prudent thing to do. Then I can spend eternity discussing the merits and detractors of gods plan

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 4 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

...Don't you find it fun to be challenged?

Hey Gem, nice words, so a liberal minded christian with missiles, I don't know whether I should be reaching out my arms in friendship or setting up a perimeter with mines and explosives and a missile defense network, hmmm

And yes it is most definitely fun to be challenged

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 04 October 2008 - 02:02 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 4 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

And yes it is most definitely fun to be challenged

Tell me about it - I get high when people try to corner me in a debate. I love a heated debate so much, that endorphins are released in my body and I start to shiver and a start smiling big. It's the most amazing thing. Yeah, I'm a freak. I think those mines wouldn't do any good, to be honest, because I usually just walk right through them with my force absorbing shield.

[frookenhauer]

Okay, lets see if I can get a smile out of you...

In terms of your christianity, when did you start to believe? The reason is that my upbringing included a significant amount of conditioning/brainwashing that made me want to believe in god and his messengers and all that, I have a background in Islam BTW. Its the same for christians in that they take their kids to church and sermonise them. Is it fair to indoctrinate children into religion before they have a chance to develop the wherewithal to make a decent choice?

[Morgoth]

Nownow, children .. There's no reason to be so agressive towards each other

Terez, on Oct 4 2008, 03:05 AM, said:

Grief said:

Atheists do not believe in god, at all, and are certain one doesn't exist.

This is not true. Most atheists aren't "certain" that one doesn't exist, but rather see no reason to believe in something that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Those that are certain that no deity exists are more accurately referred to as "anti-theists".

So you're basically saying that you disagree with the two definitions Obdigore brought forth and that you have another definition of atheist that you find more apropriate? IF so, what is it?

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 4 2008, 02:29 PM, said:

Okay, lets see if I can get a smile out of you...

In terms of your christianity, when did you start to believe? The reason is that my upbringing included a significant amount of conditioning/brainwashing that made me want to believe in god and his messengers and all that, I have a background in Islam BTW. Its the same for christians in that they take their kids to church and sermonise them. Is it fair to indoctrinate children into religion before they have a chance to develop the wherewithal to make a decent choice?

Generalizations, generalizations. I can haz generalizations.

But to answer your question - and I can only speak for myself, obviously, not for any other Christian: I've always believed in God, one way or another, but I made a conscious choice when I was about 16. In my family we always discussed everything involving faith. We've always been encouraged to think critically. And faith has always been a choice. My parents have always been like: "this is what we believe, and this is what we think" and then let us decide for ourselves.

Generally, Christians are no more brainwashed than people that grow up in a certain political household etc. I'm not even sure how brainwashing would work tbh. I don't think it's even possible to brainwash, indoctrinate people in this country, without isolating children - and that is not allowed (I don't think - children have to go to school). You can't have a school more openly critical of Christianity than ours. We're a socialist bunch, and shamelessly proud of it. Even our 'right wing' is socialist.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 04 October 2008 - 02:46 PM

[frookenhauer]

Maybe brainwashing is too harsh a word to describe the relentless barrage of religious beliefs and information that kids in a religious household are subject to. We are the sum of our experiences and if a lot of those experiences are prayers before meals, hymns and going to church and reading the Bible and whatever else our loving parents drag us off to, can we help but become servants of god?

More generally we are indoctrinated by our society on many issues: Thin is beautiful, its okay to be in debt, good always wins, honesty is the best policy, and so on and so forth.

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 4 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

We are the sum of our experiences and if a lot of those experiences are prayers before meals, hymns and going to church and reading the Bible and whatever else our loving parents drag us off to, can we help but become servants of god?

Yes, there's always a choice. Many people in my close vicinity is proof of that. Now will you please stop generalizing. You asked me a question, and I answered. If you don't believe me, that is fine, but I am telling you; there's just as many people not staying Christians as there are people who do - with similar environments and whatnot. Just like there are lots of people that weren't raised in a Christian home, but still chose to be Christians in their adulthood. Just because you have a faith doesn't mean you automatically stop thinking critically.

And if you interpret 'brainwashing' as the thing that happens all around society, the 'soft version' if you will, then I don't understand what you're asking? There's just as many people that are not mainsteaming in society as there are those that do; we are our choices.

I don't believe in that kind of predestination - I believe we all have a choice.

[RodeoRanch]

Every time I see the thread title, I automatically want to shout "drunk!"


I'm an atheist. Whooo.


I also cannot figure out how to edit the poll options so I can spell "atheist" correctly. KHAAAAAAANNN!

[frookenhauer]

So the terms "I'm raising my child to be a good christian" are foreign to you? I'd argue that the ratio between those that are born into christian families and those that convert to christianity is huge. Its the same for Islam and Judaism. Indoctrinating ones child about their faith is part of all religions. I'm just wondering whether its ethical to do so.

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 4 2008, 07:31 PM, said:

So the terms "I'm raising my child to be a good christian" are foreign to you? I'd argue that the ratio between those that are born into christian families and those that convert to christianity is huge. Its the same for Islam and Judaism. Indoctrinating ones child about their faith is part of all religions. I'm just wondering whether its ethical to do so.

Yes, that is a foreign concept to me. I'm not even sure what it means exactly. Maybe it has something to do with my country not being catholic, but I'm not assuming anything, since that is generalizing and I don't want to do that.

But if 'indoctrinating' according to you means simply to live your life and make decisions based on your own beliefs, so the children take notice, I don't see how that can be unethical. It is what all parents to - atheists parents do the same. What is important is to create an environment that encourages the children to think for themselves and make their own choices when they grow up.

[frookenhauer]

I'm not talking about your specific case, which seems to me to be a fairly liberal upbringing. But seeing as you want things to be more specific, because you cannot/will not attempt to look at the broader picture and pass it off as generalising

Faith, its an interesting concept and so is belief. Neither requires proof, because it just is, isn't that how it goes? So what do you believe? How did you come to believe in it? How does thinking for yourself interact with something that requires no proof?

I live in England. As a child when school finished we would go home and have a glass of milk. We would then go off to learn about our religion from the local preacher for an hour and then come home. Our parents would regularly give us talks about our religion and ensure we performed our prayers....The same is true for most of my generation.

If you do anything often enough, it becomes a habit. You were converted to christianity before you had even formalised it in your mind at 16. It was the right choice as far as you were concerned. Am I right?

[Osric]

Terez, on Oct 3 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

Osric, on Oct 3 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

Agnostic, I don't believe in the bible, or anything thought of by man that supposedly came from a divine source noone can check. However I don't believe that just because we have a better understanding of how things were created that it didnt GET created by a force more powerful.

I don't believe in the cold futility most athiests believe in, I think my life has meaning, I just dont know what it is, and Im not inclined to take anyone else's word for it either.

That's a common misrepresentation of what atheists believe. We don't believe that our lives have predetermined meaning, but we don't believe in "cold futility" either. Life has meaning - whatever meaning we choose to give it.

Also, we don't believe that the existence of god is impossible or disproven - it's just unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. Someone who says that the existence of god is beyond a shadow of a doubt impossible would be an "anti-theist".

The only difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that agnosticism carries connotations of apathy. Atheists tend to be more overtly concerned with the problems in society that are justified and perpetuated by religious belief.

Hmm alright, that's interesting. To be honest with you I don't care much for "labels" as you might call them. I don't think for this kind of thing there is really 1 definition that fits all. For religion sure, religions have rules and guidelines, they tell you what to think and believe, which is why I don't like them (as in personally, I respect anyone else's views).

I explained my point of view, what catagory it falls in precisely is not that important to me. I appreciate the heads up on my wrong info on the definition of atheists though. I think I'll look into it a bit more when Im not tired.

I have to agree with frookenhauer as well, I don't think it's really morally right to indoctrinate a kid with religion. I see videos on youtube of little girls taht just learned to talk read a load of texts from the bible and frankly I feel sorry for them. Theyve not been given the choice on wether to believe it's true or not, theyre kids, they'll believe anything. Don't even get me started on stuff like circumsition either, male or female.

I have a friend who has been a jehova's witness for a long time, he was always told and always believed that the only reason he's here on earth is because he had to repent for the sins of his ancestors. Everything he did that was fun was wrong to him, and he desended into a spiral of drugs and alcohol and eventually got psychotic and had to be put into a mental institution. He's better now but he's not the person I used to know and he never will be again, which is really shit. Im not saying that his religion is to blame totally, but I do think it played a big part in it, the futility it made him feel was always too much for him, knowing that he will never get into heaven because of the sins he already commited were enough to deny him that without a chance to repent. Stuff like that makes me angry.


on a side note:
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?view...0df34e41b93636a

This post has been edited by Osric: 04 October 2008 - 10:51 PM

[Terez]

Morgoth, on Oct 4 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

So you're basically saying that you disagree with the two definitions Obdigore brought forth and that you have another definition of atheist that you find more apropriate? IF so, what is it?

Do you know what "redundant" means?

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 4 2008, 11:31 PM, said:

I'm not talking about your specific case, which seems to me to be a fairly liberal upbringing. But seeing as you want things to be more specific, because you cannot/will not attempt to look at the broader picture and pass it off as generalising

Faith, its an interesting concept and so is belief. Neither requires proof, because it just is, isn't that how it goes? So what do you believe? How did you come to believe in it? How does thinking for yourself interact with something that requires no proof?

I live in England. As a child when school finished we would go home and have a glass of milk. We would then go off to learn about our religion from the local preacher for an hour and then come home. Our parents would regularly give us talks about our religion and ensure we performed our prayers....The same is true for most of my generation.

If you do anything often enough, it becomes a habit. You were converted to christianity before you had even formalised it in your mind at 16. It was the right choice as far as you were concerned. Am I right?

It had always been a choice. But I think most children want to be like their parents in that respect - no matter what the parents are. When I got older I saw every side of it, and I had to find out what I thought, and what I believed. It never occurred to me that anyone could make that choice for me - because it was always assumed by everyone I met that I had to make that choice myself. I remember we even talked about it - when I was going to make the choice for myself. But when I did, it was I that initialized it, not my parents.

Everyone believes in something. You have to believe that your eyes give you a fair representation of the world around you, that your brain interprets your touch and smell and other senses to a correct representation of what's actually true. You can never 'prove' beyond any doubt that your brain actually knows what's our there - at some point you have to trust your brain.

What I believe...it comes from what my mind and my soul tells me is true. I cannot deny it, the same way I cannot deny that I can see the sun or that I can touch my relatives. I choose to believe that my senses don't lie. The same way I choose to believe that my mind and my soul (or whatever it is) don't lie to me about what this universe is about.

Maybe we're all crazy - i.e. have no real perception of what's really around us - but we all believe something. Nothing can ever take me further than the possibility that you're all just the figment of my imagination.