[Dolorous Menhir]

Since Blend mentioned the Moon-related sorceries of Mogora, I just wanted to note that the Moon behaved in a similar fashion during the creation of Silverfox in Kruppe's dreamworld. I think it that case it was either due to the work of K'rul or (more likely) the Rhivi sorceries of the Mhybe.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

I agree with the "Ardata is Ardatha" line of thinking. Whether or not she is an EG is a little shaky. She may have been an EG and been in a human form for "fun" and then just gained the title of Queen of some realm. Or she could've been a powerful sorceress who was also a queen, and ascended before or after the fall of Jacuruku. I kinda thought the EG's were around in the beginning, so she could just be an Ascendent that's been around for ages. If she's not an EG, that doesn't make her any less powerful. I'm still undecided on whether she is an EG.

Don't forget that a warren can be a time, not just a place. Tellan in GotM for example. And as for her being capable of healing, whether it was from 100 000 years in the past or not, is rather irrelevant of her aspect. Oponn healed Paran, and one gets the idea that the only reason it wasn't done properly was because they didn't really care. And an unascended Imass shaman helps in the delivery of a baby from thousands of years in the past. Shit, he wasn't even a Bonecaster yet.

[D'rek]

Though this thread's been dead for a while, It was just recently referenced in a new thread so it may be worthwhile to start this one up again... or not.

Anyways, my tidbits:

1. Ardata is "elder" as being from that time, but not one of the original gods like Draconus or Kilmandaros. I would say there's a good chance she's the offspring of some of the elder gods.

2. D'rek is the "Worm of Autumn". A worm could have all sorts of aspects, but in D'rek's case it's mostly decay and whatnot. Likewise, Ardata may be the "Mistress of Spiders" but that could lead to a wide selection of aspects, including perhaps even the moon's size and luminosity.

3. Ardata may reside in a "pocket" warren that has not progressed in time since just before Kallor's thingamajig. Maybe she was at the height of her power then and maintaining a part of that time period strengthens her (or kept her alive until she found new followers).

4. Obviously the moon is tied to the planet by a giant, invisible strand of spider-webbing. Otherwise it would just float away.

[Seed]

I don't think the moon actually moved during the healing ritual for mappo, I envisaged it more as if a large web of many hundreds of square miles cast up into the air to gather all the moonlight over that area and focus it down to one point. The bending light would give the appearance of the moon being larger and closer over the ritual site. IMO anyway.

It's quite possible Ardata used the death of her nation during the destruction of kallor to fuel her ascension and the creation of her pocket warren as a reflection of her old capitol/palace/temple. She seems competent enough to perhaps have forseen the coming disaster, although the giant flaming god falling out of the sky to land on the continent next door may have clued her in enough that she would start making plans. Any survivors she sent to other places before the final destruction would sing her praises, over time Queen Ardata who likes spiders so much it's their national symbol, becomes the Queen of Spiders their saviour... *poof* instant god.

Hmm something I just thought of then...We're really not accounting for the age of some of these Human empires. Kallor and Ardata are contempories (IIRC) from the time of the first human empire of the Tyrant Disembelakis (over on the other side of the world)...humankind was still learning it's civilisation sea legs as it were. It's quite possible Ardata was set up as a pharoah style rule as opposed to a straight monarchy, there's no reason why we can't have God-Kings (and queens) ruling. It's possible she was already a goddess before the destruction, that would be one way she could keep being so uppity to kallor, although kallor was under the impression he was humouring her little rebelliousness so perhaps she wasn't that uber, although her nation was a satrapy of kallors and not subsumed completely tend to say to me they had to be treatied with and must have had some power of defence. Speculation abounds!

-Seed

[D'rek]

Great point!
I believe somewhere in the first couple of books, when one of the characters is realizing that Shadowthrone and Kellenvad are the same, they remark that the pantheon would never have allowed him to continue ruling a mortal empire after ascending to godhood. But, as you say, that's now and back in Kallor's day they might have seen things differently.

[Imperium Corruo]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before in the thread, but even if it is Ardata who is the vassal of Kallor in a mortal capacity, that does not necessarily mean her loyalties are with him in her capacity as a an ascendant or god.

Just as Nightchill was a wizard in the Maazan Empire, but was not necessarily loyal to the empire itself as a God, that was merely her mortal role.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Imperium Corruo;217336 said:

I don't know if it has been mentioned before in the thread, but even if it is Ardata who is the vassal of Kallor in a mortal capacity, that does not necessarily mean her loyalties are with him in her capacity as a an ascendant or god.

Just as Nightchill was a wizard in the Maazan Empire, but was not necessarily loyal to the empire itself as a God, that was merely her mortal role.

I explained that when I started the thread.

[Imperium Corruo]

Alright, I'll work on my reading comprehension skills.

[Tomau]

Why discount the obvious; that Mogora is Ardatha (not one of but the). When she's talking to Mappo she says something like:'oh, I'm young again' meaning she is hiding in the guise of some old woman, and Mogora is a real hag. And when she hides before Cotillion is because he came too close to the truth.
And with Iskaral Pust being some god gone demented, they make a perfect pair, don't you think!?

[Aptorian]

Crazy theory much?

[Tomau]

Why? Which part?

[Aptorian]

When you refer to a quote, please make a pagereference so that we might look it up ourselves. Or better yet, type up the quote.

I don't remember that scene well, but I ment that it's pretty obvious that Mogora is Ardathas priestess. Nothing made me think different.

And of course, Pust is STs high priest and the Magi of Shadow, not a god.

[Tomau]

I don't have the book with me, and that of the Pust was just for the fun of it, but I wouldn't say that it's that highly unlikely.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Tomau;232822 said:

I don't have the book with me, and that of the Pust was just for the fun of it, but I wouldn't say that it's that highly unlikely.

I think it is highly unlikely. Most obviously, Mogora had to perform a complicated ritual just so that Mappo could visit Ardat(h)a to be healed. Kind of pointless unless you want to speculate that Mogora was going to extreme lengths to hide the fact that she was actually Ardat(h)a.

[Fiddler]

Not to belabor the issue, but in the passage Ardata seems surprised that Mappo is there and kind of annoyed, if she had started the ritual in mogora guise, then why would she act that way?

Also, she could be an Elder Goddess, I would think that her aspect of web spinning would also apply to the warrens, after all how do you get from Kurald Galain to Rashan without a network or a web if you will? The spiders come into it as makers of their own destiny I'd think, as such she might be a deity of freewill and it's converse. Just my thoughts on it.

[Havoktx]

Any possibilities it could be Mother Dark herself?

[Aptorian]

I don't see why you would ever connect the two.

Why would you connect spiders with darkness? Or think that Mother Dark possibly decided to run a kingdom that was a vassal state of Kallors empire?

More about Mother Dark in RG and TTH.

[HoosierDaddy]

Havoktx;351456 said:

Any possibilities it could be Mother Dark herself?

No. There is absolutely no evidence that either Mogora or Ardatha is connected to Kurald Galain. While in all evidence Ardatha/Mogora's power seems to be elder, or more appropriate sans-warren, there is absolutely no connection to the Andii or Galain itself.

The connection between Liosan, Emurlahn, Galain, Meanas, Rashan, and Thyr remains one of refinement of hold to house, or as neither of the three appropriately are contained in holds: elder to warren.

[eekwibble]

Aptorian;351459 said:

I don't see why you would ever connect the two.

Why would you connect spiders with darkness? Or think that Mother Dark possibly decided to run a kingdom that was a vassal state of Kallors empire?

More about Mother Dark in RG and TTH.

Also more about Mappo & Ardata in TtH. Admittedly not much as far as I've read up to, but enough to whet your Spider-Goddess-loving whistle.

[Grief]

Btw, since Elder is described at one point as being an elemental force, which has been there since the time of All Darkness(Cotillion with the dragons and edgewalker at beggining of the book iirc, if your at the Ardatha bit i'm assuming ure past it) does this mean that spiders existed there so there was a position for an elemental force or what?