[Dolorous Menhir]

This has been debated many times, but there is enough information given in the books to settle the matter once collected.

As we all remember, Mappo was healed by an unnamed woman in BH.

He exchanged these words with her:

The Bonehunters, on page 399, said:

"Who are you?" Mappo asked.

"A queen about to be driven from her throne, banished from her empire. My vanity is about to suffer an ignominious defeat."

"Are you an Elder Goddess? I believe I know you..." He gestured. "This vast web, the unseen pattern amidst seeming chaos. Shall I name you?"

"Best you did not. I have since learned the art of hiding. Nor am I inclined to grant favours. Mogora, that old witch, will rue this day. Mind you, perhaps she is not to blame..."

So she is Elder. The passage this exchange occurs in is full of spiderweb imagery - silver threads, webs, silk, hiding. The shadows form an array of webs on all sides.

She refers to Mogora in the manner a god would describe a misbehaving disciple. Cotillion later calls Mogora "one of Ardata's." Mogora is a spider D'ivers.

Later, this exchange occurs:

The Bonehunters, on page 516, said:

[Sister Spite is speaking to Mappo]

"Oh," she murmured, "Ardata's hand in this, I see. Healed in the Queen of Spiders - you foster dangerous alliances, Guardian." Her free hand pressed against her lips, eyes widening. "How rude of me! Guardian no longer. How should you be called now, Mappo Runt? Discarded One?"

So, Mappo was healed by "Ardata," an Elder Goddess. She is the Goddess of Spiders. This is established beyond doubt.

Now what about the Ardatha of the MoI prologue?

She was a vassal of Kallor's Empire in the time of the Fall of the CG, always late with her tribute.

Memories of Ice, on page 38, said:

Kallor's brows rose. "You would take from me all that I have worked so hard to achieve? Fifty years, dear rivals, to conquer an entire continent. Oh, perhaps Ardatha still held out - always late in sending me my rightful tribute - but I ignored such petty gestures. She has fled, did you know? The bitch. Did you imagine yourselves to be the first to challenge me...[monologue continues for some time]

First of all, the similarity of names immediately points to a link between Ardatha and Ardata. Such a small variation in names is no obstacle, this is commonplace with gods in the books (Anomandaris Irake/Anomander Rake, Treach/Trake, Osric/Osserc, etc).

Second, there are clear links in the passage of Mappo's healing.

The Bonehunters, on page 398, said:

[Mappo has just woken in Ardata's realm]

He found himself standing amidst tall pillars of stone that had been antler-chiselled into tapering columns. Heavy iron-wrought clouds scudded over one half of the sky, a high wind spinning strands across the other half, filling a void - as if something had punched through from the heavens and the hole was slow in healing. [The aftermath of the Fall] The pillars, Mappo saw, rose on all sides, scores of them, forming some pattern indefinable from where he stood in their midst. They cast faint shadows across the battered ground, and his gaze was drawn to those shadows, blankly at first, then with growing realization. Shadows cast in impossible directions, forming a faint array, a web, reaching out on all sides.

And now, Mappo understood, he stood at its very centre.

A young woman stepped into view from behind one of the pillars. Long hair the colours of dying flames, eyes the hue of beaten gold, dressed in flowing black silks. "This," she said in the language of the Trell, "is long ago. Some memories are better left alone."

"I have not chosen it," Mappo said. "I do not know this place."

"Jacuruku, Mappo Runt. Four or five years since the Fall. Yet one more abject lesson in the dangers that come with pride."

[snip, then later]

"Who are you?" Mappo asked.

"A queen about to be driven from her throne, banished from her empire. My vanity is about to suffer an ignominious defeat."

So we know that Mappo's healer was:

- on Jacuruku, Kallor's continent
- at the time of the Fall, and thus Kallor's Empire also
- a queen
- shares almost the same name as a ruler under Kallor in the same time period.

I think it is fair to conclude from these links that Ardata and Ardatha are one and the same.

It is thus established beyond all doubt that Mappo's healer was:

- Ardata, the Elder Goddess of Spiders
- Ardatha, an apparently human ruler subject to Kallor's Empire

This dual identity is easily explained - Ardata indulged in the same pursuits as Mael and Nightchill, "playing the mortal game."

Mael was a manservant, Nightchill a powerful mage, and Ardata a queen.

I hope that settles this once and for all. If anyone has spotted any flaws in my reasoning, please share them.

Thanks for reading.

[GardenGnome]

I'm still not convinced she's an Elder Goddess. That he recognizes her does not neccesarily mean that she's an elder goddess, allthough he does ask this first. It could be argued that he recognized her, but wasn't certain if she was an EG or not. Ok, that's weak... All evidence points to that she is an EG. It's just that it sounds silly - Elder Goddess of Spiders?? - but then again, Sister of Cold Nights doesn't sound too great either... I mostly disagree because I don't like it, not because of any contrary evidence

[Falco]

Werd GG. The only problem I have with all of that is the bit where she's Elder. The rest of it yeah no probs. Only thing we have to say she's Elder is Mappo recognising her and there's been plenty of evidence of SE and his unreliable character viewpoints before. Furthermore if she was Elder, there's no mention of her in the section where Cold Nights, K'rul and Draconus face-off with Kallor. I realise she might not have allied with them, but there was a mention of Togg as he wandered around on the continent back then...it just seems unrealistic. Doesn't sit right. So same as GG in the end.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Perhaps I was too strong with the "she is Elder" part.

What other kind of Goddess could she be? She doesn't match any of the human gods listed in the glossary. Could she be a god to another race?

It's also possible that she's an Elder that has so far gone unmentioned, or that there was some reason why the three Elders who faced Kallor did make any mention of her.

Or she could be one of the two unaccounted-for Elders, Sechul Lath & Grizzin Farl. If I had to choose one I would go with Sechul Lath, because it has that "ath" sound, and Grizzin Farl sounds unmistakably male. That's just guesswork though.

[GardenGnome]

Yeah, that's the problem - what else could she be? Could she be just some normal Ascended human (or humanoid)? It seems that was possible at Kallor's time too, as the curse ensured he'd never Ascend.

As for the pantheon of Elder Gods: I think it's far larger than what we know of now - it's just that not all of them are around any more, or affect this particular storyline, so they haven't been mentioned.

[ASAGO]

dont forget there are also ancient gods as introduced in MT The warlock king released one from the sea and there were others trapped, who know's how many are out there.

[Illuyankas]

There is a difference between Elder Gods and the merely antique deities.

[tiam]

i agree with D menhir that she is an elder goddess but i find the idea of an EG of Spiders a bit crap. Also the only problem i have with D menhirs facts is that isnt MOI prologue with Krul 3 years after the fall. At this time Ardatha had already fled. When mappos goes back hes 5 years after the fall and ardata is still there. Although i still beleive your right just a point. Could be wrong.

Also as for the reason why she never helped/ was found by Krul and co is because, as she states shes become good at hiding

[Dolorous Menhir]

Being strict, Spite does say "Mistress of Spiders."

So - and this would agree with what's been suggested - Ardata is an Elder God with a spider-related aspect, and "Mistress of Spiders" is a subtitle like "Maker of Paths."

I'm striking out on what that aspect could be though.

[Abyss]

The spider/weaver/threads/fate/destiny theme is well established in mythology generally.

And others have caused me to doubt this theory in other threads, but i've wondered more than once whether Ardata/spider-woman isn't also the Queen of Dreams.

- Abyss, resurrecting the dead horse again...

EDIT: to note to whomever just neg'repped me for mentioning the above theory... I will find you. Oh, yes, i will. And your brainz will be mine. Mwa hah ha haaaa....

[Bl1nder]

Crazy idea, shes a Imass Godess, who has actaully survived. If you think about it, it has been said that the Imass outlived their gods. But this specific godess, flees, and eventually finds followers as a Queen on Jackuruku. Then after kallor destroys the continet, she is once again left without anyone worshiping her. Then eventually she finds followers once more (mogora for one), but since she doesnt have many of them, she is weak, and therefore is hiding.... just a theory

[Dinivan]

Actually she never striked me as Imass...they're mostly described as thick and broadshouldered. I don't remember anything like that in the Ardata-scene...Correct me if I'm wrong...

The point about the Elder Goddess. Yeah I think that just spiders would be a very meager aspect for a EG. But then we got

Quote

the spider/weaver/threads/fate/destiny theme.(as Abyss is putting it )

That would make her into a really important Goddess though, and I wonder why she didn't turn up more often in the books.

QoD? Without a pond? But if she's doing camouflage she'd have to desert it for a few moms. So why not? I mean, I see no evidence in favour or against it. (except that there is none in favour). And we know the QoD is joining the fun. She might want some more influence than just Leomann/Dunsparrow (and perhaps Crokus). And as Queen of HH Life a healing should be within her powers...

[Dolorous Menhir]

But we know the Queen of Dreams is an ascended human sorceress called T'riss, who once travelled with Rake & Brood. This doesn't really agree with Ardata's known history. I don't think they are the same, especially since the QoD is quite active in the world and Ardata most definitely is not.

As for the Imass suggestion, Ardata's appearance was not Imass at all. But perhaps she was appearing more human to Mappo than she really is (in the same way that Mael-as-Bugg is more human than MT-prologue-Mael) for some reason. So we can't rule out Imass origins.

[Folken]

Look put it this way if it was the Queen of Dreams we would've known because then SE wouldn't have covered it up the way he did all shrouded in clues and such. If it was the Queen of Dreams why would she care if her name was called out? As DM said she's an active player in the game now and has no reason to hide or be hidden from us. I like DM's reasoning cause it makes sense.

[Bl1nder]

Well she is a goddess, I doubt she would atract much followers if she looked like Imass, plus who knows what T'lan Imass would do to her, if they knew she was alive? So she might just have changed her appearence

[Falco]

Bl1nder;146240 said:

Well she is a goddess, I doubt she would atract much followers if she looked like Imass, plus who knows what T'lan Imass would do to her, if they knew she was alive? So she might just have changed her appearence

I think it would be fair to say her appearance would not have a bearing on her ability to attract followers- the gods do not generally make themselves seen in person, although obviously that's not true in the case of the books ie. QB and Hood, Heboric and Fener and Paran and Soliel/Poliel. In general though they are hidden as referred to by Paran's disappointment in seeing Soliel in the flesh compared to her statues.

[Bl1nder]

Oh fine, I give up on the argument
but if she is just some godess of spiders, why would she be "about to be driven from her throne"? Why would anyone care enough to do that anyway?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think Queen Ardatha was being driven from her throne, not Ardata, Mistress of Spiders.

The enemies of the queen don't necessarily know she's a goddess. After all, Kallor didn't.

[Abyss]

It's possible she wasn't a goddess at the time Kallor was demanding tribute.

- Abyss, assumes the open nature of above post doesn't merit negative rep this time.