[Abyss]

Well, we now know there are dead dragons in KE, which could serve as a basis for their ghosts showing up in Meanas a few millenia later. So it's possible.

But SE has fooled/misled us before. *coughcoughBluesSegulehSecondcough*

- Abyss, won't be fooled again. Until next time.

[Monok]

Orfantal;109198 said:

"T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas.......Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The Pure Dragons."

By this list, assuming it's correct, and excluding Olar, assuming that's Olar Ethil, that gives us 14 pure dragons. Of which at least 6 may be dead. Potentially that could be 8 (6 plus Sorrit plus T'iam) and an Otataral dragon imprisoned, so perhaps 9 out of commission. This might leave 5 still around... the 3 we've seen, Silannah, and another. Weren't the 2 spirits that Apsalar picked up draconean in origin?

Sorry if this point's already been made, couldn't be bothered trawling through this topic looking for it, but:

I assumed that Olar was the Imass word for dragon. After all, the Imass Bonecasters seem to have their word for the creature they veer into as a part of their name.

[Midnight]

Going back to the idea of Dragons in Dragnipur. The three dragons in Meanas said that K'rul wanted them to be a passive force within the warrens but clearly the three took on a very active role. Perhaps certain dragons tried to claim Kurald Galain for themselves and Draconus stepped in and stopped them. The dragons could have been aspected to Warrens that have since died out or maybe have come under the thrall of other realms since their dragons have been enslaved.

[Imperial Historian]

I think your all making some assumptions about the dead dragons which aren't warranted... ie that these dragons were aspected to any warren, as far as we know k'rul hasn't created the warrens yet, they seem to be a realitively recent creation (if a couple of 100 thousand years ago can be considered recent in the timecycles of the gods) ie post imass

As such I suspect many of the dragons/soletaken seen dead here are not mentioned in the imass lists, or aspected to any particular warren, the imass after all would have no reson to know there names them being dead 100,000 years prior to the ritual.

[Orfantal]

Sorry but K'rul has clearly created the warrens at this point. The dead dragons are in Kurald Emerlahn, one of the warrens created by K'rul as attested to by Ampelas who is the dragon who provided the power for that warren.
I don't think they are a recent creation at all but go back a very long way.

The Imass may well not know all the dragons.. on the other hand their info may come from Olar Ethil.. a draconic soletaken .. and apparently a friend of Silannah

[Imperial Historian]

Hmmmm, I'd always got the impression that K'ruls creation of the warrens, (not the realms, they were always there, Krul's shaping of the warrens only shaped the existing power of the realms), was a realitively recent thing, after all why would people use the holds if K'rul had shaped the warrens already?

The way I saw it was that the elder holds and relams were always there, and K'ruls shaping brought them together into the warrens, and to do this he used the dragons as power sources, and this was done in realitvely recent times... but I admit it could have done by the time of the MT prologue, and thinking on it the fact that rake likely imprisoned the dragons in KE shortly after the MT prologue suggests they were...

Oh and if that list consisted of all the dragons, and the 6 dead in KE were some of them, that would suggest that there are a lot of vulnerable warrens out there, enough so that Iccy wouldn't have thought it so dangerous that sorrit was dead, which makes me think that the dead dragons weren't involved in the creation of the warrens, after all presumably rake didnt kill eloth and co becauseif he had he'd be damaging the structure of the warrens.

[Orfantal]

Hettie -- oh no!

Well I guess we've always known that the human warrens are branches of existing warrens.. perhaps as they grow and develop .. or as human mages began to occur and drew the warrens to them. But certainly the initial creation must have happened before this to create K Emerlahn, amongst others.

"I am Ampelas, who shaped the Blood in the paths of Emerlahn. The sorcery wielded by the Tiste Edur was born of my will."

I always had the impression that it was a very old event.. K'ruls recollection makes it seem like the Elder Gods were lost in Chaos before the warrens appeared.

Perhaps Cotillion just means that the relevant dragon powers all warrens derived from it's original source. .. So Silanah provides the power for Thyr etc

[tiam]

To when the warrens appeared i also admit my confusion to the actual date. The Imass had the warren of Tellan i think so that gives us a rough time line on when it happened. However a fact no ones commented on (i think) is that 70000 years ago (which was the first empire middle period according to Samar Dev or it may have been 50000 years.) the ppl of the First empire were using holds. Its likely that warrens cannot of existed before then as they seem a very advanced ppl and would surely have used the profoundly safer warrens. SO yes the warrens are very old but not in the context of what we know. 50000 years (give or take) is a long time and can be considered ancient just not ancient as we see it given are overall view of the life spans of different ppl. Becuaase the Imass have bin in a war for the last 300 000 years we see 50000 years as oddly new

[Dark Mac]

tiam;110418 said:

However a fact no ones commented on (i think) is that 70000 years ago (which was the first empire middle period according to Samar Dev or it may have been 50000 years.) the ppl of the First empire were using holds. Its likely that warrens cannot of existed before then as they seem a very advanced ppl and would surely have used the profoundly safer warrens. SO yes the warrens are very old but not in the context of what we know.

Indeed, MT does screw things up a little. However, I believe that the people of the First Empire actually did use warrens. Warrens can't be used on Lether, at least not between the time of Gothos's Ritual and MT. It was only on Lether that Holds were used. I suspect that none of the First Empire's mages would've wanted to be there (since they wouldn't have been able to use their magic), so all the Letherii colonists were mundane. When mages were eventually born, they learned the use of Holds on their own, and eventually it was forgotten that mages used anything else.

[tiam]

No i dont think thats quite right Dark Mac.

By what your saying you beleive the colonisers of Lether (the founders if you will) had no mages with them at all and in the course of their isolation they came upon magic and went from basic magic to the eventual use of the holds. I would have thought that all the mages of the first empire used holds and that it ended with the downfall of the First empire (the ritual thing). Also your statement they couldnt have went to Lether because they couldnt have used their warrens is untrue. Corlo used a warren and although there was special circumstances i believe warrens could be used seen as Corlo not only travelled in the warren but still frequently used mockra through out his time in Lether. So the mages could have used their warrens. But i think its stated inj BH that the First empire used holds.

'When mages were eventually born, they learned the use of Holds on their own, and eventually it was forgotten that mages used anything else.'

So the Letherii system of magic evolved on its own in isolation? Interesting but i think they were just left behind in the time due to Gothos ice. Corlo proved warrens could be used. So the first empire travellors likely used holds. I think there must have been mages with the expedition that found Lether. Im not saying the Letherii couldnt have simply come up with holds but it seems like with tribes in 7c and the barghast (i know tribal cultures are different but as an example) that magic takes the form of shoulder men and shamans who use more primitive forms of magic. Although its perfectly reasonable to assume that the Letherii civilisation came up with magic it seems they had it when they arrived

[Murrin]

The ruins of First Empire cities in Raraku (as seen in Deadhouse Gates) had temples decorated with the Tiles. The First Empire most certainly used Holds.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That would mean then that the system of human warrens came into existence after fall of Kallor & Dessimbelackis' Empires, ie after the MoI prologue.

I can believe that, no examples spring to mind of human warrens being used in earlier times.

[S Ruin]

Just a quick mention on something I noticed. If you look at the prologue to Reaper's Gale really closely, it looks like the 1st chapter that was posted with the heading - The Age of Sundering actually occurs after Kilimandaros and rake go back into the rent to cleanse the warren. I think erikson is playing his tricks with us because although the passages look like they follow each other, he does not actually state that. If you read between the lines closely, you will see this to be the case. I am at work now so will post the lines I am refering to later.

Also I dont think it was a typo regarding the rake and osseric fight. It is too glearing a mistake for erikson to have missed. If we could notice it easily, then I am sure kallor would have spotted it as well when given the advanced reading. What I think happened is this. I think osseric and rake did have a fight just after rake woke up. this will have happened just as mael and kilimandatros were on their way to deck scabby. only lord knows how long that battle went on for - it could have been quite long. So I think rake decked osseric and then went to the rent to wait for kilimandaros because as he said, he never had any intentions of participating in the slaying of scabby. so after he decked osseric, osseric still probably thought rake was heading to the slaying so after he spoke to his 2 daughters in MT, he could have gone out to see if he could find rake again which is what i think prompted rake to state that osseric was circling round and round looking for him.

Anyway, who knows with rake - never has a character come close to interesting me as much as he does.

And where the hell is kilimandaros now - maybe rake or draconus sliced off her head with draginpur.

[Orfantal]

Tne whole issue of Holds, Houses, warrens etc is pretty confusing .. guess I've always thought of it as K'rul creating the basic warrens..ie Emerlahn Thyrllan and other key warrens.. Omtose Phellack for example? a long time ago.. but these sources of power are accessible in ways that match the user... so when humans were more primitive this was in the form of Holds.. which then developed as humans did into the warrens as they are now.. Letheras is a special case as that development was prevented...Corlo was able to access warrens firstly because the Tiste Edur brought them with them.. Emerlahn.. and Galain via the wraiths.. and also as the freezing effect weakened and disappeared

One question is how much control the dragons powering the warrens have. It's indicated that Silanah brought the power of fire to the Imass, as her aspect was fire ie Thryllan presumably, and they used this in the form of Tellan... leading to Telas and Thyr? .. but did she reshape the warrens or simply show them how to access that power?

[Abyss]

Imperial Historian;110286 said:

Hmmmm, I'd always got the impression that K'ruls creation of the warrens, (not the realms, they were always there, Krul's shaping of the warrens only shaped the existing power of the realms), was a realitively recent thing, after all why would people use the holds if K'rul had shaped the warrens already?
...

Good point, and that was my thought as well, but...

"Draconean blood hardening into stone, horizontal sheets of the substance, already beginning to separate from the surrounding earth, to lift up on edge, forming strange, disarticulated walls. Some then began sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood?s aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood."


SO it may be that K'rul and the dragons rearranged the warrens at some point, but the aspect element to their blood already existed.

And it may be that 'feral' dragons are those not aspected, and perhaps their presence in KE during the sundering is due to an effort to gain an aspect.

- Abyss, feral cat.

[Imperial Historian]

Good catch abyss, so we have the fact that the realms were aspected to dragon's/k'rul's blood in a time before the warrens as they are today were formed, and they were linked to dragons even then, but the only realms mentioned in these times are the ancient "hold-like" warrens, the beast hold, fire, ice, light, dark, shadow etc, and we know K'rul was around then so presumably he helped in the ordering of these warrens.

Then later within realitively recent times ie during the 1st empire period he got the dragons to create the human aspected warrens, the problem is if we assume the 3 dragons imprisoned in meanas, were the same as those we saw in KE fleeing kilamandros, then the human aspected warrens were already around in those days... but no-one actually used them till after or during the 1st empire.

I have to admit to being at a loss to explain why they weren't used though...

[Use Of Weapons]

tiam;110454 said:

Corlo used a warren and although there was special circumstances i believe warrens could be used seen as Corlo not only travelled in the warren but still frequently used mockra through out his time in Lether. So the mages could have used their warrens. But i think its stated inj BH that the First empire used holds.

Did he not state that he'd been trying to access a warren for ages, and only recently been able to do so? Perhaps because Gothos' ritual was failing...

[Illuyankas]

Corlo could use Mockra because of what the Edur brought with them, the brainwashed nameless god and the corrupted Emurlahn/Galain. When Gothos' Ritual was performed, it might have frozen what was available to mages as what was currently there - Galain, Emurlahn, other Elder ones - and not allowed the newer humans ones until it began to unravel during MT, allowing Corlo to use Mockra and etc. Besides, the Empty Hold was created by the Letherii's worship of the Errant, (presumably would have been the Empty Warren had that been available to be made) and could be accessed by them even if the normal mages could not find a warren.