[Ellestra]

I think Dragons are magic. Not just magical but magic itself. They are all aspected because that's what they are. And there are many ? Tiam?s daughters speak of hundreds or maybe thousands(I don?t remember) of births/deaths.

Quote

"I am Eloth, Mistress of Illusions - Meanas to you - and Mockra and Thyr. A Shaper of the Blood. All that K'rul asked of me I have done."

"I am Ampelas, who shaped the Blood in the paths of Emerlahn. The sorcery wielded by the Tiste Edur was born of my will."

They didn't get an aspect when working with K'rul - they've given their aspect to his creation.

As I understand it warrens are two things - places and sources of magic. I think warrens as places always existed ? Jaghut have one from before Imass, and K?Chain had one even earlier. K'rul made them accessible as magic sources - he created paths that can be used to access magic and connected them to warren with dragons shaping his blood in their image. He made it possible to access warrens you weren?t born into ? they were no longer properties of one race. It used to be Omtose Phellack - -Jaghut only, Tellan ? Imass only etc, but humans now can use any and many at once. Before Shaping of Blood they had to use holds ? they didn?t have warren to access.

I think that when dragons die the magic dies and the warren becomes just a place. Or at least it can no longer be accessed as path to it disintegrates.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, running with your idea puppy, Otataral is supposed to be created in reaction to overwhelming use of magic.

So if Otataral is dragon-blood as you propose, then are we led to the thought that a level of magic sufficient to create Otataral is actually wounding the dragons associated with the warrens, and as they bleed in Starvald Demelain Otataral is created in the mundane world?

[Varan]

umm i just read the first couple of pages, but a point to make - there are loads of dragons, they have a whole world to themselves (SD) plus it says in MT, when those two sisters sukul and menandore are ranting on, that tiam has given birth to thousands of elient, so it follows that there are thousands if not tens of thousands of the regular dragons spread out everywhere not neccesarily in the malaz world tho...

[Tattersail_]

I thoroughly enjoyed this read from start to finish, I wonder what yopu all would say about this subject now in 2010 after reading DoD. Obviously no spoilers but this could be a thread in a later book like DoD and it would still be interesting, and many more people could add to it!


MODGOD EDIT TO NOTE - AGREED AND SINCE THIS WAS A DEAD THREAD SINCE 2006 I HAVE MOVED IT TO THE DoD FORUM.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 03 September 2010 - 02:31 PM
Reason for edit: Thread moved to DoD forum. Proceed.

[Abyss]

We've seen otataral pop up in reaction to the Jade giants (we think) on Otataral island and as a result of the twelve high mages/priests' ritual at the beginning of TB to release Dejim, so at a minimum otataral can be a natural 'reaction' or it can be 'manufactured' without the use of the Jade. There's also the otataral on the Laerdon Plateau that seems to grow into the trees and land and affects Karsa's Teblor - obviously it's already there but it seems that it affects natural things like trees, assuming bloodwood and bloodoil are linked to it as i think they are.

It's interesting that despite the otataral 'infusing' Karsa, he is still aspected by the 7 rocka faces, the House of Chains and ultimately his own warren. Despite his resistance to magic, the whole 'follow the souls back to the CG' thing in RG wasn't affected.

But just to complicate things, ota' seems fairly magical itself, considering what we've seen it do to Lorn, Rallick, Heboric and Tavore. we might even say there is an 'otataral warren'.

It's been suggested more than once that the Otataral Dragon is the 'answer' to all the other dragons. This follows on the notion that ota' itself is an answer to magic.

Back to the dragons, the dragons who assisted K'rul shaped the warrens, but they didn't create them entirely. In TB Iccy speculated that after Sorrit's death, something happened to Osserc than Serc would be unprotected, (which is interesting since Osserc is primarily associated with Kurald Thyrrlan/Liosan, altho RCG suggests air/wind is also his aspect) but not that the warren would just disappear. It might be more vulnerable although whether that opens it to shattering like KE is hard to say.

And that raises the interesting question of what happens if someone kills the otataral dragon.

- Abyss, all speculated out.

[Tattersail_]

Firstly, thank you for moving it to here.
secondly, a point from me about the forum, I have been coming on here almost everyday since I found it in May time, there are threads that go back to 2006 and only by chance I have started reading them. My point would be that some of the older more popular posts get moved forward to here, or am I just rambling and may as well do a re read and go to the first posts of each topic..

The points you make about the Otataral are interesting, rather than thinking of the world of wu I am now thinking of the universe it is set in. SE seems to have gone all out super intensified complex when he created this world with ICE. The first question is where did Otataral come from? Many pople have speculated but we don't actually know. If the otataral was created by the jade giants colliding with wu, then it suggests that there will be a jade giant near where the teblor are. That suggest there is 3 jade giants that we know of on the world of wu. heborics mines, ho's mines and where the teblor are, would you agree? Is this related to tCG being pulled from his realm? Is the crippled God the master of the jade giants? where are they related? the amount of worlds/realms in the universe could mean that tCG could be from one realm and the jade Giants from another or both from the same realm...

Karsa is no longer aspected to the unbound as he rejected him, but the rest of his clan/tribe/people are, how will he free them? by killing the unbound, i hopes!!

back to your post Abyss, i like how rallick used otataral and doesn't Kalam have a blade of the same thing? it has been hinted at that the better assassins are the ones that use otataral rather than magic, so maybe Kalam, rallick and co may want to help the OD?

What would happen if the OD got killed? Then Tiam would need to die too as one cannot exist without the other, is this correct?

Abyss, do you think dragons will be fundamental to TCG and if so how so?

Brain Freeze!

[ShadowRaven]

Tattersail, on 03 September 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

The points you make about the Otataral are interesting, rather than thinking of the world of wu I am now thinking of the universe it is set in. SE seems to have gone all out super intensified complex when he created this world with ICE. The first question is where did Otataral come from? Many pople have speculated but we don't actually know. If the otataral was created by the jade giants colliding with wu, then it suggests that there will be a jade giant near where the teblor are. That suggest there is 3 jade giants that we know of on the world of wu. heborics mines, ho's mines and where the teblor are, would you agree? Is this related to tCG being pulled from his realm? Is the crippled God the master of the jade giants? where are they related? the amount of worlds/realms in the universe could mean that tCG could be from one realm and the jade Giants from another or both from the same realm...

Otataral as a material probably comes from dragons' blood, although the jade giants' seem connected to it somehow. However, there is an interesting passage at the beginning of TB that somewhat confuses me (Bantam paperback p.37) in terms of otataral. It's from the scene where the nameless ones free Dejim Nebrahl, and the last Nameless One, Sister Spite casts her part of the spell:


She said, 'In the name of the Warren of Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release.' And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral.

And Dejim Nebrahl rose into the world of the living.


They way I understood this is that the magic of SD is in fact otataral? This little section certainly raises some interesting questions but it has always confused me a bit.

[Tattersail_]

ShadowRaven, on 03 September 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 03 September 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

The points you make about the Otataral are interesting, rather than thinking of the world of wu I am now thinking of the universe it is set in. SE seems to have gone all out super intensified complex when he created this world with ICE. The first question is where did Otataral come from? Many pople have speculated but we don't actually know. If the otataral was created by the jade giants colliding with wu, then it suggests that there will be a jade giant near where the teblor are. That suggest there is 3 jade giants that we know of on the world of wu. heborics mines, ho's mines and where the teblor are, would you agree? Is this related to tCG being pulled from his realm? Is the crippled God the master of the jade giants? where are they related? the amount of worlds/realms in the universe could mean that tCG could be from one realm and the jade Giants from another or both from the same realm...

Otataral as a material probably comes from dragons' blood, although the jade giants' seem connected to it somehow. However, there is an interesting passage at the beginning of TB that somewhat confuses me (Bantam paperback p.37) in terms of otataral. It's from the scene where the nameless ones free Dejim Nebrahl, and the last Nameless One, Sister Spite casts her part of the spell:


She said, 'In the name of the Warren of Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release.' And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral.

And Dejim Nebrahl rose into the world of the living.


They way I understood this is that the magic of SD is in fact otataral? This little section certainly raises some interesting questions but it has always confused me a bit.

You did say probably, and I did say there has been lots of speculation. otataral deadens the jade statues, maybe it comes from the same planet/realm as them. Otherwise, taking on your point and what you said, if otataral was dragons blood then it wouldn't be dragons magic would it? Is the passage you quoted about sister spite word for word correct? If so, then it does suggest that she uses otataral to dispense with the magical aura surrounding Dejim.

[Abyss]

Otataral is a reaction to the Jade, not a product of it. Put another way, it seems there are many ways to cause otataral to come into being. the presence of the Jade is one. The TB prologue ritual is another.

Relatedly i read that as SD being used to trigger otataral as part of the ritual, not in and of itself. Tho you could read it as each part having a different effect, since dejim reacts to each iirc.

As for dragons in TCG, see the synopsis in that forum. I don't see how it can be avoided. Cotillion back in TB said that the conflict relates to dragons somehow.


As an aside, old threads can certainly be necro'd upforum. Just PM a mod if you find one you want to ressurect.

[ShadowRaven]

Abyss, on 03 September 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

Relatedly i read that as SD being used to trigger otataral as part of the ritual, not in and of itself. Tho you could read it as each part having a different effect, since dejim reacts to each iirc.

I see your point here, it could certainly be seen that way as well. It's even more confusing as on the previous page Spite's raises her 'slim, rust-red, scaled hand', which immediately made me think of otataral. She wasn't described looking anything like that in the later books, but this might be her true appearance, and the beatiful woman just an illusion. This could also imply that her body is part otataral and maybe that enabled her to release Dejim, not just the use of SD?

@Tattersail: Yes, the passage was word for word.

[SiriusL]

ShadowRaven, on 03 September 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 September 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

Relatedly i read that as SD being used to trigger otataral as part of the ritual, not in and of itself. Tho you could read it as each part having a different effect, since dejim reacts to each iirc.

I see your point here, it could certainly be seen that way as well. It's even more confusing as on the previous page Spite's raises her 'slim, rust-red, scaled hand', which immediately made me think of otataral. She wasn't described looking anything like that in the later books, but this might be her true appearance, and the beatiful woman just an illusion. This could also imply that her body is part otataral and maybe that enabled her to release Dejim, not just the use of SD?

@Tattersail: Yes, the passage was word for word.

I was happily reading this thread, formulating the idea that the Otataral Dragon is aspected directly to Starvald Demelain, and then ShadowRaven posted above and it fell into place. It all ties in very nicely with what I've bolded below:

Quote

"Draconean blood hardening into stone, horizontal sheets of the substance, already beginning to separate from the surrounding earth, to lift up on edge, forming strange, disarticulated walls. Some then began sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood?s aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood."

Now why would SD be the death of blood? Because dragon blood powers human magic, and Starvald Demelain's aspect is Otataral--the death of magic. (This also might explain why dragons want to escape SD and were literally dying to get out when Trull and Silchas and Co. were traipsing through.)

Another idea I have is related to what Ellestra posted way before in this thread (same page, different year ) about how the dragons power the paths to magic that K'rul created. If dragons are the prisms through which K'rul created the paths to the aspected warrens, their deaths would mean the magic is no longer accessible. In a more literal sense, the blood of dragons is anathema to human magic. The blood of dragons is otataral. I would then reinterpret the quote above: Starvald Demelain is the death of blood because K'rul's paths allow for human magic without a blood sacrifice.

[Tattersail_]

SiriusL, on 11 October 2010 - 08:13 PM, said:

ShadowRaven, on 03 September 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 September 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

Relatedly i read that as SD being used to trigger otataral as part of the ritual, not in and of itself. Tho you could read it as each part having a different effect, since dejim reacts to each iirc.

I see your point here, it could certainly be seen that way as well. It's even more confusing as on the previous page Spite's raises her 'slim, rust-red, scaled hand', which immediately made me think of otataral. She wasn't described looking anything like that in the later books, but this might be her true appearance, and the beatiful woman just an illusion. This could also imply that her body is part otataral and maybe that enabled her to release Dejim, not just the use of SD?

@Tattersail: Yes, the passage was word for word.

I was happily reading this thread, formulating the idea that the Otataral Dragon is aspected directly to Starvald Demelain, and then ShadowRaven posted above and it fell into place. It all ties in very nicely with what I've bolded below:

Quote

"Draconean blood hardening into stone, horizontal sheets of the substance, already beginning to separate from the surrounding earth, to lift up on edge, forming strange, disarticulated walls. Some then began sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood?s aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood."

Now why would SD be the death of blood? Because dragon blood powers human magic, and Starvald Demelain's aspect is Otataral--the death of magic. (This also might explain why dragons want to escape SD and were literally dying to get out when Trull and Silchas and Co. were traipsing through.)

Another idea I have is related to what Ellestra posted way before in this thread (same page, different year ) about how the dragons power the paths to magic that K'rul created. If dragons are the prisms through which K'rul created the paths to the aspected warrens, their deaths would mean the magic is no longer accessible. In a more literal sense, the blood of dragons is anathema to human magic. The blood of dragons is otataral. I would then reinterpret the quote above: Starvald Demelain is the death of blood because K'rul's paths allow for human magic without a blood sacrifice.

Interesting theory. If Otarataral is anathema to magic then dragons would not be able to produce magic if their blood was made of Otarataral

Maybe SD is where dragons come from but it hurts my head trying to link Otarataral to it

[SiriusL]

Tattersail, on 12 October 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

Interesting theory. If Otarataral is anathema to magic then dragons would not be able to produce magic if their blood was made of Otarataral

Only if they have an open wound.

Quote

Maybe SD is where dragons come from but it hurts my head trying to link Otarataral to it

Me too. I also can't explain why drinking Tiam's blood would turn someone Soletaken.

[ShadowRaven]

SiriusL, on 12 October 2010 - 08:05 PM, said:

Me too. I also can't explain why drinking Tiam's blood would turn someone Soletaken.

Well, SD is often described as a somewhat ordered form/evolution of chaos, and Dessimbelackis created soletaken by using the power of chaos. The way I see it is that the power of SD (i.e. the blood of dragons) might therefore be able to produce draconean soletaken.

[masan's saddle]

Quote

Maybe SD is where dragons come from but it hurts my head trying to link Otarataral to it

Following your line of thought, maybe because it's also where dragons go to die........ ?

[Paran]

The blood of dragons has been referred to as chaos (by Rake), with KG being referenced as the order that were the two chambers at the heart of K'Rul's design. Assigning aspects to dragons and soultaken dragons for each path effectively ensured a source for the magic from those paths. SE has always brought the way of nature being to provide balance, eventually. The OD is the balance to the others dragons - the answer to them.

[Excellence]

I had the impression it was the Nah'ruk who killed Sorrit to open the Imperial warren big enough to plop out the Citadels. Going by Sorrit found in a Nah'ruk keep; Bonehunters.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Excellence, on 17 October 2010 - 10:51 AM, said:

I had the impression it was the Nah'ruk who killed Sorrit to open the Imperial warren big enough to plop out the Citadels. Going by Sorrit found in a Nah'ruk keep; Bonehunters.

wasn't it the dragon in the prologue that they were bleeding to make that gate? sorrit was killed way to long ago