[Mael]

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You are making vaild points Dolorius. As you said, dragons and sole taken die but not sole taken dragons. We know Dragons die but they are not sole taken so hence the whole argument of gothos trapping Blood eye's soul n the finnest and bloodeye not being able to kill Silchas outright. Were I see your point is that soletaken's have been killed before like the soletaken bear that Karsa killed so maybe you are right.

As for Andarist, we all know he has foresaken his draconean blood (if he ever had any) or else he wll have wooped those edur on drift avali so you really cannot compare rake and andarist.

I don't believe Andarist was soultaken. He asked Cutter if Rake had forsaken his draconian blood because it made rake "impure" in Andarist's eyes.

[Monoch Ochem]

Andarist is not Soletaken, as far as we know. Well, Raest seemed to think himself equal to the task of destroying Silanah and the Soletaken dragons. So in theory, it could happen.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Andarist used to be a Soletaken Eleint like his brothers, but renounced it and became a normal Andii again.

I brought him up in anticipation of the argument "Rake can't die because he's the son of Mother Dark," since that was no impediment to Andarist's death. Not because he was an example of the mortality of Soletaken Eleint.

Rake is a Soletaken, an Eleint, a Tiste Andii and a direct descendant of Mother Dark. We've seen members of all four groups die in the series, and I don't think you can use Rake's status as any of these things to argue that he can't die.

Just for storyline reasons, I think Rake will die. He's got "noble tragic death" written all over him.

[S Ruin]

I know all of those groups you mentioned have had a member of it killed but not the combination of a sole-taken dragon. No sole taken dragon has yet to be killed with finality - Rake, Osseric, Bloodeye, Ruin, Olar Ethil, spite and the rest - cannot remember all their names. Even Draconus - he is still stuck in the sword and will be released eventually

[Dolorous Menhir]

Proper dragons have died. Why not Soletaken ones?

[Dark Mac]

Vorcan killed Orfantal easily enough, despite her being Soletaken Eleint.

[Illuyankas]

You got Serrat and Orfantal mixed up, old bean.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It's not confirmed that Serrat was a Soletaken Eleint.

She appeared to be superior to Korlat & Orfantal, both Eleint, which would suggest she was. Rake spoke of his four assassin-mages who fell immediately below him in the Andii power structure. I think Serrat was one of them, and when we saw the three dragons at Coral they were the three surviving assassin-mages.

But we don't know for sure.

[Illuyankas]

They didn't actually say how many dragons there were at Coral, only that one of them was red - Silannah - so the 'bookish warlocks' might be also Soletaken. And you're right, we don't know for sure. We hardly know anything for sure. Gah.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought there was Rake, Silannah, and three additional dragons at Coral. I'll need to look it up.

[Abyss]

Bit of a Gotm'ism there, but Serrat was an assassin-mage, of whom there were more than 4, given how many showedup to fight the Daru assassins and QB and Kalam on the rooftops. It's certainly possible that Serrat was one of four major assassin-mages, who are just second to Rake, with multiple others less powerful.

There were, iirc, four major powerhouses who drop with Rake at the end of the fight to face demon Pearl. I took those to be his four soletaken Andii, including Korlat and Orfantal.

It's not unthinkable that the bookish warlocks are anything - i personally like the pet theory (sit theory, sit!) that they are the same three who led the retreat to Bluerose post MT prologue as told by Ahn in TB.

I don't remember the exqct quote in MoI as to how many dragons showed up when MoonsSpawn busts out, tho i recall the ref to Silanah.

- Abyss, assassin-chef.

[Illuyankas]

Rake never changed to dragon form at Coral at all, I'm pretty sure.

[Monoch Ochem]

@ Abyss: But weren't the ones who led the retreat to Bluerose the ones who actually became the Onyx Wizards?

[S Ruin]

I cant remember for sure if it was mentioned in GOTM that Serrat was a soletaken - will have a quick browse. If she is, then there goes my theory.

Just to reiterate that I was not saying Rake could not be killed but how exactly (due to the fact that if a sole taken dragon is kiled then the sole will just escape the corpreal body and probably find another host - like what we all think will eventually happen to scabby)

[Mael]

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Rake never changed to dragon form at Coral at all, I'm pretty sure.

this is correct. Rake transformed during the retaking of...the city whose name i can't remember that the Grey Swords were defending. This was when Rake swooped down to grab anastar and wounded anastar's eye before dropping him.

During the battle of Coral the Andii simply showed up and fully unveiled their warren to engulf the city. I believe that Korlat and her brother may have viered into soultaken form during that battle though.

[Monoch Ochem]

Korlat and Orfantal were veered and fighting by the time Moons Spawn arrived at Coral. Other dragons from Moons Spawn also joined in.

Rake veered once in MoI and that wasn't at Capustan. It was where the Tenescowri (led by Anaster) met Dujek's and Whiskeyjack's army..some way away from Capustan, iirc.

[Tather Demaleon]

Thanks to Kallor for the RG intro...

"His gaze settled upon one such soldier, a woman near the hill’s summit. Mangled by sorcery, her armour melded with the twisted flesh"

Does this remind anyone of a certain Sorcerer from Drift Avalii who Crokus/ Cutter came across? I know it doesn't add up with the locations, but there were survivers from the Battle with the Tiste Edur...

Also a couple of people were complaining about the inconsitancies of time lines; the way that I ignore/ explain these to keep myself content is by thinking of the books as historic stories which quite regulary get things mixed up as are told down the ages and by different people who see and remember things in different ways.

Tather Demaleon

[Dolorous Menhir]

Tather Demaleon;160398 said:

"His gaze settled upon one such soldier, a woman near the hill’s summit. Mangled by sorcery, her armour melded with the twisted flesh"

Does this remind anyone of a certain Sorcerer from Drift Avalii who Crokus/ Cutter came across? I know it doesn't add up with the locations, but there were survivers from the Battle with the Tiste Edur...

There were survivors, yes. However Hawl (the female sorcerer you are thinking off, who was badly burned) was not one of them. If you remember, Cotillion & Ammanas themselves came to collect the body, since she was a member of the Family, and the wife of Admiral Nok.

[Izingad]

Interjecting: gods can die. No one is immortal (even Burn). Rake can be killed.

a+b=c.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

One question: when Rake and Kilmandaros set off in that rent they enter Emurlahnn.. But, I don't get it then from where did they go? Where did they slay Scabby? *confused*