[Abyss]

Cause said:

... one problem I see is if they train only with broadswords its not really and army more groups of champions in one place...

They used teamwork quite effectively against the K'ell.

Still, loath as i am to engage in a 'ho'd win', a trained Malazan army with munitions and a mage cadre would probably be able to take a Seguleh army straight on. Thurule was an initiate or some level. Senu and Mok were both 'ranked', but i'm thinking not all Seguleh are THAT amazing. And the Malaz army has a history of dealing with would-be 'Champions' by assassination at least.

The interesting point in question is whether the Seguleh were meant to be a Tyrant's army, or stop him. There's something of a cult to them... and cults training in martial arts for thousands of years for one big confrontation is a staple of Gemmel-brand fantasy.

- Abyss, wants his own cult. and t-shirts!

[Ellestra]

Seguleh don't use magic - when they wanted to fight Rake Envy stoped them by saying that they would have to face all the Andii mages first.

Everything suggests that Cabal took care the magic and Seguleh took care of fighting.

I think Cabal made sure the times of tyrant kings wouldn't come back. That none of aristocrats will rise to absolute power. Soldier suggested it was more - some specific tyrant who will come back.

But Cabal seems much weakened now - there were 9 I think (don't have GotM now) . Vorcan killed 4(?) and Raest destroyed Mammot. He, at least, is lost for ever. If they are immortal it must've been a shock.

[PannionDude]

"No matter how good of a swordsman you are, if 20 Imass appear around you and start hacking you are done for" (paraphrased)

I buy that for bad guys, good guys would each triumph in their respective idioms.

Apsalar would annihilate 20 Imass, while angsting about whether or not Cutter loved the killer or the peasant girl, and longing for death. QB would fade into a warren. Itkovian would take their pain. Pust's mule would buck in such a way as to throw him clear of the initial attack, and then he'd talk them out of killing him possibly removing them from the Vow in the meantime. Rake would go to his Eleint form and eat them. Kruppe would draw them into his dream world while rambling in the third person.

On another topic, I like the idea of Rhulad as the Tyrant who Daruhljistan is in danger from. According to the Ceda's prophecy Rhulad is the Tyrant of the human First Empire reborn, right?

[Abyss]

Y'know, if there IS a link between the Tyrant king(s) of Darujhistan and the Seguleh,
AND
there's a link between the Tyrant Kings of Darujhistan and the Tyrants on Assail,...

...this might explain why the Imass are getting their undead a$$es kicked... the Assail tyrants have their own Seguleh.

- Abyss, wonders what the start up costs of a seguleh franchise are.

[Hume]

A bit off-topic but the Imass would be almost immune to Assassin type attacks. Someone like Apsalar or kalam would never have a chance against them as If you stab them, it does nothing.
You need something like a full broadsword to literally dismember the whole T'lan Imass.

[Folken]

Abyss makes sense...and if its true...it'd be quite...freaky...

[Dark Mac]

HUME said:

A bit off-topic but the Imass would be almost immune to Assassin type attacks. Someone like Apsalar or kalam would never have a chance against them as If you stab them, it does nothing.
You need something like a full broadsword to literally dismember the whole T'lan Imass.

Heh, Apsalar can kick a HoS across a room. I doubt she'd have any problems taking out an Imass. And isn't Kalam well practiced at breaking necks? Breaking an Imass neck would sever its head.

[Hume]

The difference is that Imass are dead, any damage you inflict is meaningless unless like I said you literally tear them limb from limb with a weapon. You probly right with Kalam, but I doubt Aps could be capable of it.

[fan_83]

aps would be able to take out indivudual imass but her weapons are not suited for the task.. to permanently sever an imass from the ritual and thus making it useless, someone has to take the imass apart.. taking the head off would probably not be enough.. the imass do not see using their eyes.. they use the ritual in some ways..

therefore kalam would have to grapple with an imass to take one apart.. stabbing an imass would achieve nothing..

an army of imass warriors agaisnt an army of seguleh would be interesting.. if the imass don;t use the bonecasters and hteir abilities to turn to dust.. it would be a very close and even fight.. cos on a one to one fight, a seguleh can be killed, incapacitated with one good blow, whereas a seguleh needs to dismember the whole imass..

with the bonecasters and dust trick, the seguleh army would be annihilated.

agaisnt the teblor, again.. it would be close .. the seguleh are smaller in size and stature, but makes up for it with skill.. however, their abilities to work in squads, teams are questionable, and their weapon choice of swords and no shields makes it hard for them to be truely effective as a team.. so its very close..

i would say an army of imass would take apart and army of teblor, with same tactics as against the seguleh

while a malaz army do not have the guts to go up against an imass army.. first,,, the soldiers know what the imass are capable of, and that their mages are outclassed so even though they have moranth ammo, they cannot win against the imass.. against the seguleh, teh claw if employed, is doubtful to be very effective.. the seguleh are an martial race that is ever vigilant.. so a claw may take out one or two but will get butchered in return.. in a battlefield, the mages will take out the seguleh, and in close combat, the malaz will prob still win but wit htremendous losses..

against the teblor, its more intimidating.. the mages are neutralised due to the bloodoil, but the malaz team effort will be able to take down the teblors fast.. and i am wondering if the moranth will react to the blood oil?
if it does, then killing hte teblor would be easy.. keep on lobbing moranth and the chain reaction will take out plenty

[Abyss]

Obviously whatever the Assail Tyrants are using is effective, because the T'lan Imass, dusting and boncasters notwithstanding, are being severely pwned over there.

We know that at a minimum, sorcerous weapons are being used. And presumably the female imass Envy met, with the three swords sticking out of her, travelled to Genabackis a la dust-mode... and the swords came with her, which suggests the damage they do sticks. Pun intended.

We also know that whatever the link is between the Daru Tyrants and the Cabal, Baruk and co were some seriously powerful mages (albeit Vorcan was MORE powerful, and she couldn't stand against the andii magessassins... but i'm venturing into ho'd win here, so moving on...). So either it takes a cabal of High Mages to deal with a Daru Tyrant, or a Daru Tyrant keeps High Mages as pets.

So if the Assail/Daru'n connection is valid, not only do the Tyssailrants have their own Seguleh, they have their own High Mages too. Ergo, Imass bonecasters are bonecasterated, Imass dusting is dusted, and Imass weapons skill is all that's left. Impressive, but apparently not impressive enough.


- Abyss, thinks Malazan 'Risk' would be way too complicated.

[Cause]

It is entirely possible that their are seguleh mages, bowmen, spearmen etc. I cant be bothered enought to look up the excact the line or quote but one of the brothers refers to I think the black masks the first level initiates to weapons. The key word of course is weapon and not sword. Perhaps some seguleh learn sword others the spears. Perhaps they learn evrything at once. And just because we have not seen a seguleh mage does not mean much. We know they dont like to talk so no ones knows much and we have only met three.

[Dolmen 2.0]

@Cause we've met Three and a Half...sorry but I had too:D.

I Was thinkin that the seguleh are not in fact human at all. Perhaps they are a fallen tribe of barghast or a super elite tribe of barghast. I was thinking that the barghast had little mention of mages and yet, as the watered down offspring of the T'lan Imass, thats not too surprising. In an army of millions of T'lan Imass there is a select few bonecasters. Maybe a mage/shaman amoung the seguleh is almost as rare.

[GingerBreadMan]

Cause said:

It is entirely possible that their are seguleh mages, bowmen, spearmen etc. I cant be bothered enought to look up the excact the line or quote but one of the brothers refers to I think the black masks the first level initiates to weapons. The key word of course is weapon and not sword. Perhaps some seguleh learn sword others the spears. Perhaps they learn evrything at once. And just because we have not seen a seguleh mage does not mean much. We know they dont like to talk so no ones knows much and we have only met three.

It's true we don't know, but wasn't it said somewhere that Seguleh viewed magic with disgust?

I will have to look, but I thought when they were enspelled/entranced that there was some comment made about Seguleh and Magic.

[PannionDude]

Are we certain that the battle on Assail is entirely one sided against the Imass? The one who is impailed and sent floating mentions their losses, but not the losses of the enemy. They might even be slaying at 100x casualty ratio, but that wouldn't stop an enemy with Tlenascowri-esque numbers. I tend to lean towareds the theory that the losses are roughly equal, but the T'lann Imass are outnumbered and that they've had a couple massacres when the Tyrants used whatever their schtick is.

[Rat Mentor]

Have been pondering the whole Tyrant - Seguleh - Cabal - Darujhistan sub plot for some time.....

Abyss - love the soulshiffting - saving theory...

To me the Cabal have been formed - recurited... the Seguleh trained to be an army and then developed into a warrior caste system....

Darujhistan has a bloody worshiping past - K'rul temple for instance..

Could it be possible that Darujhistan was, in the past, a city of a Cult? The Tyrants being the Cults leaders i.e. like the "Whirlwind" cult of seven cities.

The Cabal keeping a low profile.. The Seguleh waiting in seclusion.....

The Tyrants of Darujhistan to return..

The Cult to reappear?

Over to you all.....

[tiam]

i doubt it. Kruls time past long ago and darujhisatn has only been goin for 3 thousand years

[Abyss]

Not exactly Tiam. At a minimum, we've seen that Krul, Mael, and Togg/Federline all had at least minimal/residual worship into the present time. Not enough to keep Krul active and empowered until 'recently', but they weren't forgotten like Mael's pillar gods in MT.

But back to the Seguleh, note in MoI Mok's recognition that Envy's use of Poliel's warren was killing Garath, when Envy herself didn't notice. Don't be so sure Seguleh are totally magic-aversion. What they are, interestingly, is reluctant to attack women, including female Imass with swords through them.

- Abyss, likes to make a point.

[Dark Mac]

I thought they were reluctant to attack her because she was an Imass with swords through her, not because she was female. The only Imass they knew at the time was Tool, who was a pretty good guy, and it's not really sporting to attack someone who already has three swords in them.

The Tenescowri also have lots of women, as do the rest of Pannion's forces. The Seguleh certainly showed no reluctance in killing them.

[Ellestra]

Abyss said:

Not exactly Tiam. At a minimum, we've seen that Krul, Mael, and Togg/Federline all had at least minimal/residual worship into the present time. Not enough to keep Krul active and empowered until 'recently', but they weren't forgotten like Mael's pillar gods in MT.

But back to the Seguleh, note in MoI Mok's recognition that Envy's use of Poliel's warren was killing Garath, when Envy herself didn't notice. Don't be so sure Seguleh are totally magic-aversion. What they are, interestingly, is reluctant to attack women, including female Imass with swords through them.

- Abyss, likes to make a point.

Elder Gods never disappear completely - Elemental forces.

I think Seguleh don't really care about anything that doesn't concerns sword fighting your way to become first. All other things are auxiliary.

They don't have real army or practice other weapons or do magic. They have one goal - to be the best swordfighter and become First.

That doesn't mean they are stupid and unobservant.
And Envy has problems with noticing trivial things - remember that BB incident later?

Dark Mac said:

I thought they were reluctant to attack her because she was an Imass with swords through her, not because she was female. The only Imass they knew at the time was Tool, who was a pretty good guy, and it's not really sporting to attack someone who already has three swords in them.

The Tenescowri also have lots of women, as do the rest of Pannion's forces. The Seguleh certainly showed no reluctance in killing them.

Envy actually informs Lanas Tog that Seguleh won't attack her because she is female but she should not provoke them as they were a problem for the First Sword.

So if attacked they fight with women but they don't feel they are part of the hierarchical structure and don't fight for a number in ranks with them.

[tiam]

i tokk the Seguleh to be chivalrous (?) not attacking women.

Abyss and Ellestra- yes i know but you must understand that i reognise that Mael wasnt forgotten but his aspect was a bit more common than the warrens. Sailors and marines pay homage to Mael alot making him still sort of active. Just not dominant. Also mael chose to lose his preemeinence. Krul however did have on worshipper. In darujhisatn in GOTM Crokus notes that the last monk of Krul died many generations ago. So i agree my coimment was a bit flippent but there are circumstances involved