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I was reading the criticism thread regarding the disbelief in female soldiers in Erickson's books. That fact that females are weaker, wouldn't work, got pregnant, don't exist in our history so don't make sense in Erickson's world, etc.
Since that cristicism thread shouldn't really be a place for discussion on the validity of female soldiers I thought I new thread appropriate to discuss the topic. I'm not sure if this is the correct forum for it, but I couldn't find one that seemed more appropriate since the original subject topic thread lies here as well.
On to the issues of soldiering:
Why was the Malazan Army compromised of so many female soldiers?
When you read GotM, DG, MoI it pretty clearly states that the Malazan Empire is on a huge recruiting drive. Male or female, they are looking for bodies to train. The Empire is stretched thin and pushed out on all fronts, they don't have enough soldiers to sustain the push, the very reason they allied with the Moranth. This is clearly stated in MoI. The Empire was crumbling and honestly didn't have enough forces to continue the push and hold what it had. Hence the 7 cities revolt, and Tavore assembling a fresh army, many raw recruits. When you've enlisted the vast majority of your manpower into the military already, even in a society that considers men warriors, pragmatism often wins out. Realization that you could either use female soldiers and get more bodies out there - or not use female soldiers and probably lose for lack of troop support. Now factor in a society, which seems to accept female soldiers and women in roles of power and authority "Malazan Empire" and you would see a higher percentage of female recruits.
Well how do they keep the women from getting pregnant?
I'm pretty sure it was MoI where there is a mention of an anklet that is magically charmed/imbued to prevent the female soldiers from getting pregnant. They in fact discuss the very issue of this problem in the book.
Well women are weaker then men?
In terms of average mass vs muscle strength - this is "sort of true". Having been both a soldier and a martial artists for a fair majority of my life I can attest that in basic upper body and muscle development men often develop to be stronger then women.
However, war has a way of evening things out. You look at the factor that the Malazan Empire was compromised of disciplined troops. They fought in tight formations often, utilized fairly strong medevial tactics (at least from the inferences from the first 3 books), and were very remisicent of roman military discipline.
You could have an army of 50% female soldiers if your army was composed of units, that utilized their strengths or downplayed their weaknesses. From all aspects of the first 3 books, the Malazan military leaders did just that. For example the Malazan Infantry was feared not so much because of their sheer ferocious power, but because they were taught to adapt. Free thinking soldiers which if anything might seem the most "unrealistic" aspect of the army. If you look at the most commonly referred weapon "the Malazan Heavy Crossbow" you could see how female soldiers would easily fit into this mix. 1 or 2 soldiers male or female could load, arm, and fire these weapons. In mass concentration they would be devastating against any medevial level infantry forces. Malazan forces were not big masses of people that just charged in and fought the 1 on 1 fight in a huge melee, which is often glorified in modern day movies. I think that is where the misconception that female warriors wouldn't be as effective really comes from. The "holly wood" protrayal of medevial combat being immediately associated with Erickson's world.
Women weren't warriors in our history so how does it make sense in Erickson's world?
Well, there are 2 answers I could give to this.
1) His world is a unique fantasy setting in which women in the Malazan Empire have already earned a respected place as equals to men. Is this totally true, I can't say since I haven't read farther then MoI.
2) The belief that our history isn't filled with women warriors is blatantly false.
Following examples taken from:
http://www.lothene.d...rs/women12.html
The Rig-Veda, an ancient sacred poem of India, written between 3500 and 1800 BC recounts the story of a warrior, Queen Vishpla.
On the walls of Hittite fortresses dating to 1300 BC paintings of woman warriors carrying axes and swords
Zabibi and her successor Samsi reigned as Arabian warrior queens from approximately 740 to 720 BC. Both commanded armies containing large numbers of women.
The Greeks had legends of the a group of women warriors called the Amazons
Archeological finds of Scythians have included female skeletons with bows, swords, and horses
In 39 AD Trung Trac and Trung Nhi led a Vietnamese uprising against the Chinese. They gained control of 65 citadels and reigned as queens until 43 AD. Their mother Tran Thi Doan (also known as Lady Man Thien) trained them in military skills and led troops to support them.
According to Suetonius, the Emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81-96) made women gladiators fight by torchlight at night.
The British Museum has a second-century relief carving of two women fighting. Each has a short sword and a shield.
Among the ancient Celts women rulers and warriors were so common that when a group of Brigantian captives was brought to Rome in the reign of Claudius they automatically assumed his wife, Agrippina the Younger, was the ruler and ignored the Emperor while making their obeisance to her.
The Roman historian Plutarch described a battle in 102 B.C. between Romans and Celts: "the fight had been no less fierce with the women than with the men themselves... the women charged with swords and axes and fell upon their opponents uttering a hideous outcry."
Urraca, Queen of Aragon became ruler of Leon-Castile in 1094 when her husband died. She remarried in 1098 and then spent 13 years at war with her second husband, Alfonso the Battler, to protect the inheritance rights of her son by her first marriage. She led her own armies into battle.
These are just a very few examples.
I would think that it would settle the debate that women couldn't be warriors in ancient times.
Women as Warriors - From Criticism Thread
#2
Aptorian 
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 03:22 PM
Very good points and I think the main point to make is that this is fiction.
I'm one of those people that find it a bit irritating that women should be able to be soldiers but putting women into the fray makes some of the stories more interesting.
Also SE doesn't always make the women sound like mens equals in hand to hand combat. You hear of women being overpowered and raped in at least two instances. The Aquitor in MTs (although she was drunk) and a female warrior I can't remember in the House of Chains (on the escort). I think that's the conection, in a fight women have to use different tecniques. Daggers, speed, surprise. Besides we all know how vicious women can get
I'm one of those people that find it a bit irritating that women should be able to be soldiers but putting women into the fray makes some of the stories more interesting.
Also SE doesn't always make the women sound like mens equals in hand to hand combat. You hear of women being overpowered and raped in at least two instances. The Aquitor in MTs (although she was drunk) and a female warrior I can't remember in the House of Chains (on the escort). I think that's the conection, in a fight women have to use different tecniques. Daggers, speed, surprise. Besides we all know how vicious women can get
#3
Illuyankas
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 03:46 PM
Not to mention Stonny from MOI, Apt. Although, LionsDen, you'll have to find me a page reference for this 'pill'-anklet, as I don't remember it from MOI at all. Not to say that the healers and various hangers-on (witches, tinkers, etc) don't have various methods of birth control, just that it may be in a different book (could be GOTM, haven't read that one in ages).
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#4
Agraba
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 04:50 PM
Evolution may have taken a slightly different course in the Malazan world. In our world, before we formed civilization, all power was determined by strength of brute force, which is what put women in second place from the beginning. Then, we formed the fabric of civilization from the current state, and the tradition was kept, to keep women in the inferior class.
But some other species evolve in a way that the female is four times bigger than the male, and eats it during the mating process.
So many humans just happened to evolve in a way that made women equal in strength, or at least a little closer in strength to men.
But some other species evolve in a way that the female is four times bigger than the male, and eats it during the mating process.
So many humans just happened to evolve in a way that made women equal in strength, or at least a little closer in strength to men.
#5
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 05:00 PM
The point, is suspect, is that with weapons and training or sheer grit, the male advantage of average superior physical strength is offset enought that women can be just as effective.
Consider Hetan - her brothers are bigger and stronger, but she runs the show.
Consider the two Malazan marines who were guarding Silverfox in MoI - but for magic, they would have taken Kallor out, even at their own cost. There were plenty of female claw. In DG, Duiker stabs a female semk warrior in the face...
...but in Capustan the women are not allowed to fight until they join the Grey Swords.
Point being, i think SE takes a realistic, but more egalitarian view. When you consider the theory that most of the 'surpression' of women through history is due to male religious leaders enforcing an inferior female stereotype, and contrast that with SE's use of powerful female leaders (Ardata who defied Kallor, Laseen...) and gods, you could see how in the Malaz world, there is simply less opportunity for keeping women down.
But, as with Stonny and the seerdomin, SE doesn't shirk from the obvious risks either.
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Consider Hetan - her brothers are bigger and stronger, but she runs the show.
Consider the two Malazan marines who were guarding Silverfox in MoI - but for magic, they would have taken Kallor out, even at their own cost. There were plenty of female claw. In DG, Duiker stabs a female semk warrior in the face...
...but in Capustan the women are not allowed to fight until they join the Grey Swords.
Point being, i think SE takes a realistic, but more egalitarian view. When you consider the theory that most of the 'surpression' of women through history is due to male religious leaders enforcing an inferior female stereotype, and contrast that with SE's use of powerful female leaders (Ardata who defied Kallor, Laseen...) and gods, you could see how in the Malaz world, there is simply less opportunity for keeping women down.
But, as with Stonny and the seerdomin, SE doesn't shirk from the obvious risks either.
- Abyss, speaksy in big words yes.
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#6
Cause
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 06:03 PM
the thing that bugs me. And its not a SE thing. But often in fantasy they make female soldiers bowmen because they are the weaker sex. It would take more strenght to pull a bow than it would to swing a sword.
Women with the right training can be mens equal and even superior in strength. They just have the disadvantage of having to take longer without the added benefits of large amounts of tetestorone. But than dont describe them as being lithe beuties, at least not in the classical sense of our world.
Women with the right training can be mens equal and even superior in strength. They just have the disadvantage of having to take longer without the added benefits of large amounts of tetestorone. But than dont describe them as being lithe beuties, at least not in the classical sense of our world.
#7
fan_83
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 07:15 PM
the thing about being bowmen is that you only need to work on a specific sets of muscles, therefore easier to train and since htey are often placed at the back of hte battlefield, they are not involved in the close combat. this way, women as bowmen have twofold purpose, although it takes more strength to draw a bow, it takes less training than a bowmen when you factor in size, stamina and endurance especially in formation fighting
#8
Dark Mac
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 07:23 PM
I actually take more of an issue with the lack of women warriors in SE's works than anything. There aren't really any women up there in the upper tier of warriors with Rake, Brood, Dassem, Seguleh First, etc. other than Apsalar, and her skills come second hand.
#9
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 07:38 PM
well he doesn't does he?
The only one I can remember as being described as attractive is Stonny Menackis, who is not a soldier per se, and Apsalar who was a young recruit but is no more of course.
Picker for instance is an older woman... All the female heavies are..er.. heavy!
so certainly not lithe...
I like the fact that SE gives credit to women for being able to carry out a role within a military environment, it's refreshing not to be wimped into a corner
The only one I can remember as being described as attractive is Stonny Menackis, who is not a soldier per se, and Apsalar who was a young recruit but is no more of course.
Picker for instance is an older woman... All the female heavies are..er.. heavy!
so certainly not lithe...I like the fact that SE gives credit to women for being able to carry out a role within a military environment, it's refreshing not to be wimped into a corner
#10
percival
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 07:57 PM
this may be just a basic response to this and not that well thought out, but.. i love the balance of male female characters and their respective roles. the interaction between them is great, with both strong and weak members of either sex in various situations.
i think there is a large amount of possible realism to what women can or cannot do, depending on their upbringing. there was a thread about would you want to live in this world and more so could you handle living there. the women in this world do live there and they do what is necessary to get by - warrior or other. add to the mix magic and other forms of humanoid and it seems obvious.
i think there is a large amount of possible realism to what women can or cannot do, depending on their upbringing. there was a thread about would you want to live in this world and more so could you handle living there. the women in this world do live there and they do what is necessary to get by - warrior or other. add to the mix magic and other forms of humanoid and it seems obvious.
#11
Cause
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 08:12 PM
Ceda it takes years to train proper bowmen. And a decent military bow such as a longbow or recurve bow would have a draw of 150 pounds. Thats 70kg. I dont recal when last i saw a person who could manage that feat.
And hetan as i said not necasserily a SE thing but definatly a fantasy thing. Also recall that Korlat and smiles are both considered pretty. of course pretty in the malaz world could mean ripped with muscles its never really said. And to say apsalar is still lithe as shes a recruit. They would not let her on a real field of battle if she could not hold her armour shield weapons and actually use them
And hetan as i said not necasserily a SE thing but definatly a fantasy thing. Also recall that Korlat and smiles are both considered pretty. of course pretty in the malaz world could mean ripped with muscles its never really said. And to say apsalar is still lithe as shes a recruit. They would not let her on a real field of battle if she could not hold her armour shield weapons and actually use them
#12
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 08:41 PM
Well Korlat's out of the frame being a soltetaken eleint
the whole thing with these women are they fulfill certain roles in the way that mages or cutters do...sure, they need to be able to fight and Smiles certainly has a way with knives, and Apsalar has her own skills which really take her out of the frame too. But I was thinking more along the lines of characters like Detoran.. a heavy, used for fighting and holding her ground, whereas Blend was more of a scout.
As for women warriors of the class of Rake etc.. it appears that beyond a certain point they are either killed or ascend.
I'd be curious to know how you guys would react if some real kick-ass swordswoman came along and trounced someone of the ilk of Dassem. Would you find it believable? or would you all think no-way could that happen?
the whole thing with these women are they fulfill certain roles in the way that mages or cutters do...sure, they need to be able to fight and Smiles certainly has a way with knives, and Apsalar has her own skills which really take her out of the frame too. But I was thinking more along the lines of characters like Detoran.. a heavy, used for fighting and holding her ground, whereas Blend was more of a scout.
As for women warriors of the class of Rake etc.. it appears that beyond a certain point they are either killed or ascend.
I'd be curious to know how you guys would react if some real kick-ass swordswoman came along and trounced someone of the ilk of Dassem. Would you find it believable? or would you all think no-way could that happen?
#13
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 09:17 PM
I would love to see a real kickass swordwoman with her own power(ie not from Dancer). I suppose Envy doesn't fall in this class because she is a mage, and presumably soletaken, but she certainly kicks ass and takes names(come to think of it Envy may be the perfect woman, with her ass kicking and smile to stop a man's heart, ferrocity and beauty!)
And yes, Hetan, I am a guy, so my desire to see an ass-kicking woman is valid.
I do, however, have a single compaint about the OP,
A matter of semantics really, but I think in this case it is not that they have earned equallity, but have merely never been subjected to the evils of sexism as in our world. IE, our world displays more of a decline in respect for women over the ages, with a more recent rise back to equallity, whereas it would seem in SE's world that women were never considered to be anything but equal.
This may of course be my own desires projecting themselves upon the works of an author whom I love, but I will call it my own perception for the moment at least.
And yes, Hetan, I am a guy, so my desire to see an ass-kicking woman is valid.
I do, however, have a single compaint about the OP,
Quote
His world is a unique fantasy setting in which women in the Malazan Empire have already earned a respected place as equals to men. Is this totally true, I can't say since I haven't read farther then MoI.
A matter of semantics really, but I think in this case it is not that they have earned equallity, but have merely never been subjected to the evils of sexism as in our world. IE, our world displays more of a decline in respect for women over the ages, with a more recent rise back to equallity, whereas it would seem in SE's world that women were never considered to be anything but equal.
This may of course be my own desires projecting themselves upon the works of an author whom I love, but I will call it my own perception for the moment at least.
#14
Cause
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 09:19 PM
So long as the writing was good and the battle exciting I would accept dassem gettibg beat by a 10 year old girl. Its the malazan world after all. i would hardly consider it an afront to the superioty of my sex its fantasy after all. please dont kill me.
As for female uber warriors. we have korlat, serrat, lady envy, apsalar, sister spite etc.
As for female uber warriors. we have korlat, serrat, lady envy, apsalar, sister spite etc.
#15
tiam
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:17 PM
also there are very prominent female sorcerers. Nightchill tattersail Vorcan etc. they seem to know that sorcery is a better more logical option for woman. also spite has 2 swords and although they may be rapier duelling swords (like stonnys) there still weapons. Woman aprat from Detoran seem to go for finesse rather than strength so there using there strengths aswell as men
#16
bwgan
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:24 PM
@Cause - unsurprisingly I'm with Hetan on this one. Of all the ones you name only Apsalar is human and for reasons already mentioned she is out of the frame.
I had high hopes for Lostara in HoC, but she seems to have...well mellowed is hardly the right word, but she didn't seem as...tough(?) in BH as in previous mentions...harder in certain ways, but not the superior warrior.
I LOVE the fact that there are strong (not necessarily physicaly so) female characters. I LOVE the battle scenes...I don't want to be told that it can't happen - notwithstanding (ooh don't get to type that very often!) that it is fiction and anything can happen - I want to believe that with the right training etc it's possible in our world too. And woe betide ayone who tries to convince me otherwise...because they'll get a four inch stilleto somewhere nasty! (May as well do that with them, can't wear the darn things anymore!...stupid laminate flooring....)
I had high hopes for Lostara in HoC, but she seems to have...well mellowed is hardly the right word, but she didn't seem as...tough(?) in BH as in previous mentions...harder in certain ways, but not the superior warrior.
I LOVE the fact that there are strong (not necessarily physicaly so) female characters. I LOVE the battle scenes...I don't want to be told that it can't happen - notwithstanding (ooh don't get to type that very often!) that it is fiction and anything can happen - I want to believe that with the right training etc it's possible in our world too. And woe betide ayone who tries to convince me otherwise...because they'll get a four inch stilleto somewhere nasty! (May as well do that with them, can't wear the darn things anymore!...stupid laminate flooring....)
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#17
pippin
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:26 PM
Cause said:
So long as the writing was good and the battle exciting I would accept dassem gettibg beat by a 10 year old girl. Its the malazan world after all. i would hardly consider it an afront to the superioty of my sex its fantasy after all. please dont kill me.
As for female uber warriors. we have korlat, serrat, lady envy, apsalar, sister spite etc.
As for female uber warriors. we have korlat, serrat, lady envy, apsalar, sister spite etc.
Of those mentioned only Korlat is something of a warrior (also soletaken of course), the others are either mage, assassin, soletaken or a combination of these. Powerful females there are enough, to name a few powerful ones other than you have mentioned so far: Kilava, Olar Ethil, Silverfox, Crone, there are also a bunch of female goddesses and ascendants (among them Burn and Mother Dark), most of them are not fighters though. Of course you do have Serenity and Calm (I think both are female) who are very capable fighters and maybe Kilmandaros, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore or Sukul Ankhadu is also a great fighter. At least Sukul is described as a warrior.
#18
pippin
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:36 PM
tiam said:
also there are very prominent female sorcerers. Nightchill tattersail Vorcan etc. they seem to know that sorcery is a better more logical option for woman. also spite has 2 swords and although they may be rapier duelling swords (like stonnys) there still weapons. Woman aprat from Detoran seem to go for finesse rather than strength so there using there strengths aswell as men
I am looking forward for a magic duel between Spite and Envy, but I am afraid Draconus, Rake, Osserc or Sheltatha is going to interfere. Maybe Icarium has a twin sister;)...
#19
fan_83
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:39 PM
the simple reason i believe that there is a lack of female fighters is simply due to the difference in size and strength.. although it is possible for a women to train and be as good or even better than men. but law of averages say that on average, men iwll be stronger and fitter than women, while women on average are faster.
this would lead to a smaller population that is in the upper area of hte curve that makes it to the heavy infantry, while we see a more balanced mix in the assasin, scout and light fighter area.. while mages of course are around 50% due to random luck as far as we know.
also sukul is described as a weak fighter as she died early on.. also you haven;t yet taken account of the other half of the perish/grey swords, their complement seems quite balanced with a mortal sword, shield anvil and desteraint as female.
this would lead to a smaller population that is in the upper area of hte curve that makes it to the heavy infantry, while we see a more balanced mix in the assasin, scout and light fighter area.. while mages of course are around 50% due to random luck as far as we know.
also sukul is described as a weak fighter as she died early on.. also you haven;t yet taken account of the other half of the perish/grey swords, their complement seems quite balanced with a mortal sword, shield anvil and desteraint as female.
#20
pippin
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 11:07 PM
fan_83 said:
the simple reason i believe that there is a lack of female fighters is simply due to the difference in size and strength.. although it is possible for a women to train and be as good or even better than men. but law of averages say that on average, men iwll be stronger and fitter than women, while women on average are faster.
this would lead to a smaller population that is in the upper area of hte curve that makes it to the heavy infantry, while we see a more balanced mix in the assasin, scout and light fighter area.. while mages of course are around 50% due to random luck as far as we know.
also sukul is described as a weak fighter as she died early on.. also you haven;t yet taken account of the other half of the perish/grey swords, their complement seems quite balanced with a mortal sword, shield anvil and desteraint as female.
this would lead to a smaller population that is in the upper area of hte curve that makes it to the heavy infantry, while we see a more balanced mix in the assasin, scout and light fighter area.. while mages of course are around 50% due to random luck as far as we know.
also sukul is described as a weak fighter as she died early on.. also you haven;t yet taken account of the other half of the perish/grey swords, their complement seems quite balanced with a mortal sword, shield anvil and desteraint as female.
Where does Sukul fall, I can remember Sheltatha haven fallen (midnight tides hardback 195-198). Those few pages tell a lot of the power of Elder Gods (Mael and Kilmandaros), Jaghut (Gothos), the Forkrul Assail and several Tiste Ascendants.
