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Edit : just wanted to add Cause... those 'fighters' you mentioned are all ascendants..both male and female.
We need to get back to the core of the topic... your average fighting man/woman.
Women as Warriors - From Criticism Thread
#21
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 11:19 PM
Sukhul hasn't fallen as far as we know... last seen dragging Sheltatha to an Azath House with Menandore.
Edit : just wanted to add Cause... those 'fighters' you mentioned are all ascendants..both male and female.
We need to get back to the core of the topic... your average fighting man/woman.
Edit : just wanted to add Cause... those 'fighters' you mentioned are all ascendants..both male and female.
We need to get back to the core of the topic... your average fighting man/woman.
#22
pippin 
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Posted 02 June 2006 - 11:56 PM
Hetan said:
Sukhul hasn't fallen as far as we know... last seen dragging Sheltatha to an Azath House with Menandore.
Edit : just wanted to add Cause... those 'fighters' you mentioned are all ascendants..both male and female.
We need to get back to the core of the topic... your average fighting man/woman.
Edit : just wanted to add Cause... those 'fighters' you mentioned are all ascendants..both male and female.
We need to get back to the core of the topic... your average fighting man/woman.
Did I also mention males instead of females, and I am not even drunk:) I was musing about the top tiers, that's true, and in that category the only "normal" fighters we have seen are the Seguleh and some exceptions like Brys. The average female soldier does not seem worse than the average male soldier in the Malazan Armies that is, but in the upper tiers the females are less represented. Women also appear to be more sane:) (most sappers are male)
#24 Guest_LionsDen_*
Posted 03 June 2006 - 05:51 AM
Serrat said:
I do, however, have a single compaint about the OP,
A matter of semantics really, but I think in this case it is not that they have earned equallity, but have merely never been subjected to the evils of sexism as in our world. IE, our world displays more of a decline in respect for women over the ages, with a more recent rise back to equallity, whereas it would seem in SE's world that women were never considered to be anything but equal.
A matter of semantics really, but I think in this case it is not that they have earned equallity, but have merely never been subjected to the evils of sexism as in our world. IE, our world displays more of a decline in respect for women over the ages, with a more recent rise back to equallity, whereas it would seem in SE's world that women were never considered to be anything but equal.
I can see why you like that viewpoint - honestly I think it does just boil down to a question fo semantics. Whether or not sexism existed in the Malazan Empire from the get go, women still had to "earn" their place on the battlefield and in society. More in the sense of finding the proper roles for them as female soldiers, not necessarily that they had to earn the right to be there. Since I tend to agree with the train of thought that the Malazan Empire is pretty non-discriminatory when it comes to gender and warfare at least.
Well, interesting reading the responses to this thread. I agree that we should try and focus on the discussion of every day women warriors as opposed to just the ascendent or supernatural female characters.
Someone made a comment about female warriors being bowmen. Honestly the vast majority of female warriors in our real history weren't bowmen. Some of course were but if you actually check up on it you'll find the vast majority of female units were melee units, but more like skirmishers then heavy infantry.
Bowmen are definitely harder to train - which is why the crossbow became so popular in medevial times. Really it was a simple point and shoot, where a bow takes years of training to master.
The Malazan use of the Heavy Infantry Crossbow leveled a simple playing field by providing their Infantry with a simple to use and very effective weapon against any other Heavy Infantry. Again in terms of tactics I tend to equate the Malazan Empire to a very Roman mentality. Disciplined units that worked in concert, as opposed to the mass wave of charging troops that just turned into a melee.
If you look at the Malazan Empire there are actually quite a few similiarities between it and the Roman Expansion. But I'm getting off topic... honestly, my original post was just to point out how the Malazan Empire having female soldiers isn't an unbelievable or unattainable thing. It has more often been the society/culture itself which has limited women warriors in our history, but as shown there were still plenty of them.
Even in today's army it is more of societal/cultural issue that keeps women from the front lines and direct combat units. Yes, I will agree that there is a real difference in muscle development and muscle strength in men and women. It's a fact you can't deny. But to say that women would not be able to be effective warriors is also definitely false.
#25
pippin
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 10:08 AM
I thought the Malazan army could also be very well compared to an army of our own time. I think they have professional soldiers instead of drafted soldiers, at least for their mobile armies. They also have very small units, which differ quite a bit from another.
It seems quite logical that the army would have as many women (same percentage) as the normal workforce, , (un)fortunately we know very little about common day Malazan society. We do know that the Imass were there before the humans and that in their society everyone is a potential warrior.
The existence of female superwarriors, ascendants or godessess is important in a way I think, as a role model, a well known female warrior would be something to aspire to for young females
It seems quite logical that the army would have as many women (same percentage) as the normal workforce, , (un)fortunately we know very little about common day Malazan society. We do know that the Imass were there before the humans and that in their society everyone is a potential warrior.
The existence of female superwarriors, ascendants or godessess is important in a way I think, as a role model, a well known female warrior would be something to aspire to for young females
#26
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 11:27 AM
Misan Gilani more than held her own against Dejim Nebrahl.
#27
Dark Mac
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 12:26 PM
With regard to female archers in fantasy: none of them use longbows anyway, so strength is really irrelevant. A female can use a short bow as well as any man, so there's not really a problem there.
And when I was talking about upper tier female warriors, I was including ascendants and focusing on non-magical fighting. The ones Pippin mentioned might be good ones, but we haven't seen any of them in action. It's a definite disappointment that we haven't seen any female Imass warriors/Seguleh/Avowed either. Calm is definitely the most impressive one so far though, and I hope we see much more of her in the future.
And when I was talking about upper tier female warriors, I was including ascendants and focusing on non-magical fighting. The ones Pippin mentioned might be good ones, but we haven't seen any of them in action. It's a definite disappointment that we haven't seen any female Imass warriors/Seguleh/Avowed either. Calm is definitely the most impressive one so far though, and I hope we see much more of her in the future.
#28
fan_83
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 12:30 PM
i think the reason that there are almost no top tier women in the upper realm is simply due to the simple fact that men are stronger than women, if you take the best of both species and maximise their potential at training and so on, men will still be stronger, more endurance than women. that is why there is no women at the top tier swordsmen list. there are very good ones but not in the league of daseem, seguleh first or brys
my bad, i thought that sukul refered to korlats mum, which have nearly the same name to me
my bad, i thought that sukul refered to korlats mum, which have nearly the same name to me
#29
BridgeBurner
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 03:45 PM
How about Faradan Sort?
We haven't really seen her in battle yet, but she must have some good fighting skills, considering her past.
(and the same could be the case with Dunsparrow)
We haven't really seen her in battle yet, but she must have some good fighting skills, considering her past.
(and the same could be the case with Dunsparrow)
#30
Dark Mac
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 11:05 PM
fan_83 said:
i think the reason that there are almost no top tier women in the upper realm is simply due to the simple fact that men are stronger than women, if you take the best of both species and maximise their potential at training and so on, men will still be stronger, more endurance than women. that is why there is no women at the top tier swordsmen list. there are very good ones but not in the league of daseem, seguleh first or brys
my bad, i thought that sukul refered to korlats mum, which have nearly the same name to me
my bad, i thought that sukul refered to korlats mum, which have nearly the same name to me
But how would that matter for Ascendants? Their strength and endurance is virtually limitless. And strength is far from the only thing that matters; Hull has much bigger muscles than Brys but Brys is still the greatest swordsman.
And Korlat's mom (perhaps) is Sandalath Drukorlat. She has strength, but we don't know if she has skill.
#31
fan_83
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 12:23 AM
an ascendends power is her basic power level magnified by a certain extent as not all ascendend are of equal power.
that would mean that any difference in power preascendend will be magnified via their power being amplified
i didn;t mention strenght only. i mentioned when a man and women are brought and trained in the same way to the maximum of hteir potential, the man will still hold the edge as biologically speaking, he iwll be bigger, stronger and tougher than a woman. a woman with better training and skill will be able to beat a stronger man of lesser skill. but when the skill is the same, invariably the man will win due to strength and endurance.
thats why there are no woman in the top ranks of ultimate swordfighter, perhaps the seguleh women, if htey are trained are that good, but its now known.
it goes down to the potential in each and everyone of us. a male has a higher potential level than a women, and when maxed, a male will be better
that would mean that any difference in power preascendend will be magnified via their power being amplified
i didn;t mention strenght only. i mentioned when a man and women are brought and trained in the same way to the maximum of hteir potential, the man will still hold the edge as biologically speaking, he iwll be bigger, stronger and tougher than a woman. a woman with better training and skill will be able to beat a stronger man of lesser skill. but when the skill is the same, invariably the man will win due to strength and endurance.
thats why there are no woman in the top ranks of ultimate swordfighter, perhaps the seguleh women, if htey are trained are that good, but its now known.
it goes down to the potential in each and everyone of us. a male has a higher potential level than a women, and when maxed, a male will be better
#32
Svaran
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 03:26 AM
fan_83 said:
it goes down to the potential in each and everyone of us. a male has a higher potential level than a women, and when maxed, a male will be better
In physical terms, yes. In terms of skill not so clean cut, I've trained in martial arts for years and taught, the best fighters I've had, have been the guys the most skilful have been the girls. The key difference between them has been the guys have been stronger, bigger and faster and the girls just don't have that selfish agression that many competative males have.
There has been only one exception in my years of teaching but this girl was hard as nails when she started and to me she was the exception that proved the rule. Skilful, aggro, champion in kata and kumite but despite being a commonwealth/ world championship rep she still could not contend with some of the younger guys coming through.
Erikson books are great fantasy.
#33 Guest_LionsDen_*
Posted 04 June 2006 - 05:24 AM
Svaran said:
There has been only one exception in my years of teaching but this girl was hard as nails when she started and to me she was the exception that proved the rule. Skilful, aggro, champion in kata and kumite but despite being a commonwealth/ world championship rep she still could not contend with some of the younger guys coming through.
Erikson books are great fantasy.
Erikson books are great fantasy.
Well to the address the first aspect of this, I'm pretty sure you're referring to Karate. Which, no offense, tends to favor a more physical and direct confrontational aspect as a martial art. Men have a distinct advantage in the majority of Karate styles because they focus attack and defense power in direct fashions.
As both a student of Karate and Kung fu - I've found that often women do quite well against male opponents in kung fu. Of course is also style dependent. Depending if you are dealing with a hard style vs a soft style. If you look at other martial arts as well, such as Judo or Aikido - women tend to do quite well, since brute strength doesn't play much of a factor.
Weight and muscle development make a difference of course, but that would be true with men vs men as well as women vs men.
As to the second aspect of this... I agree they are.
#34
Dark Mac
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 05:24 AM
fan_83 said:
an ascendends power is her basic power level magnified by a certain extent as not all ascendend are of equal power.
that would mean that any difference in power preascendend will be magnified via their power being amplified
that would mean that any difference in power preascendend will be magnified via their power being amplified
Uh, I don't know about that. Ascendants seem to be on an entirely different level from what they are as mortals. For example, Barghast mortals are far stronger than human mortals, but the human ascendants we've seen are far stronger than Barghast ascendants. I don't see why it would be different with women.
#35 Guest_LionsDen_*
Posted 04 June 2006 - 05:45 AM
pippin said:
I thought the Malazan army could also be very well compared to an army of our own time. I think they have professional soldiers instead of drafted soldiers, at least for their mobile armies. They also have very small units, which differ quite a bit from another.
That's actually incorrect. They do have professional soldiers, but the Malazan Empire was actually drafting soldiers as well. You might look at the situation as more similiar to WWI or WWII in terms of military composition. They had professional volunteer soldiers, but the expansion currently going on required additional troops and so they also drafted them.
As to comparision to a modern day army - you can't really. The aspect of warfare is so different today then to any sort of medevial setting trying to compare them is sort of ridiculous. Communcation, equipment, etc has changed the face of warfare so much. Realize that in the modern day army a female soldier has the ability to be just as effective with an M16 as a male. It's mastering the 3 primary skills of firing as well as having a good grasp of squad tactics that make a soldier effective today in a straight fire fight. Knowing how to position yourself, covering firing lanes, etc. I could go into detail, but it diverts to far off topic and would probably bore a lot of people.
I still equate the Malazan military to a more Roman mentality. They of course use different tactics, and are comprised of different units then the Roman empire was - but the basic military tenets that guide the Malazan Empire seem right down the alley of the Roman Empire.
pippin said:
It seems quite logical that the army would have as many women (same percentage) as the normal workforce, , (un)fortunately we know very little about common day Malazan society.
Actually, in a volunteer professional army you will undoubtedly have a disproportionate percentage then to your normal everyday workforce. If it was primarily a draft army I could see it - but with a volunteer professional army it tends to not be the case. Given that the Malazan empire doesn't offer college money, loan repayment, dental/medical care for families - the motivations for joining would be of course entirely different.
It's true we don't know the specifics of the Malazan society - and there in lies the key issue. A lot of the basis for people's assumptions are a reflection of modern day society and our views and restrictions. US military for example doesn't allow female soldiers in direct combat units - but the reasons there are more societal/culturaly driven then physical. I'll admit the physical aspect does play a part, but it's the cultural one that's the bigger issue. I think a lot of people equate the fact women aren't allowed in the direct combat units, i.e. Infantry, rangers, SF, to mean they wouldn't be good at it period. Which, isn't necessarily the case.
If you step back and look at what is inferred about the Malazan Empire's societal structure you see a culture that seems have a very minimal gender bias. There's no way to know how long it's been that way, or in what manner it developed from. We can only take what we known from what's been written or hear a straight answer from Erickson himself.
Honestly, we are probably over analyzing the issue - but heck, what else is there to do with good books but analyze them
#36
Cause
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 10:46 AM
Just because your drafted does not mean your not a professionol arly. So long as your trained your profesional. A levy given 2 years training is more profesional than a volunteer given one.
My question is this. Is SE been realistic or is he just being non controversial
My question is this. Is SE been realistic or is he just being non controversial
#37
pippin
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 09:45 PM
I was also comparing the Malazan army to a modern one, because of all the firepower. The Romans did not use grenades or other kinds of firepower (magic), besides magic must make communication easier
#38 Guest_LionsDen_*
Posted 05 June 2006 - 07:11 AM
pippin said:
I was also comparing the Malazan army to a modern one, because of all the firepower. The Romans did not use grenades or other kinds of firepower (magic), besides magic must make communication easier
Well, from reading the books you'll notice that though magic doesn't seemed to be arbitrarily used. It's not a common place every day use, such as communication wizards, etc. At least I haven't seen any use of wizards yet that really demonstrated them as being a decisive factor in advanced communications.
Romans used artillery, and yes... they didn't have "grenades" per se. Yet, you seem to equate fire power with military tactics/mentality. It isn't the same at all. I could arm rebels in Africa with AK47's, grenades, etc and pit them against the same number of trained and professional US troops. The outcome wouldn't even be close.
We're each entitled to our own opinions however, so view it how you will. It honestly isn't a story breaking issue, etc. I just don't see your corrallation as correct. Topic is diverging here however - so if you want to continue the discussion about military tactics/units/intel etc, start up a new thread. I'd be happy to debate it further there
Just trying to keep this one on topic.
#39 Guest_LionsDen_*
Posted 05 June 2006 - 07:24 AM
Cause said:
Just because your drafted does not mean your not a professionol arly. So long as your trained your profesional. A levy given 2 years training is more profesional than a volunteer given one.
My question is this. Is SE been realistic or is he just being non controversial
My question is this. Is SE been realistic or is he just being non controversial
I'll agree with you that yes, the training and experience of a soldier determines the level of "professional" ability more so then being a volunteer vs draft soldier.
Except, in most cases volunteer soldiers have a greater degree of training and experience. Drafts are usually enacted because the need for new soldiers is immediate. Hence drafted soldiers don't have the time/opportunity to get the same level of training or experience that their volunteer counterparts have.
True the Malazan Empire could theoretically be drafting soldiers and then training them for 2 years before throwing them out there - however, I really doubt it. Even then training is only so adequate. If you don't have the chance to apply it real combat situations you'll never know how you're going to react. There is a specific reason military combat units conduct realistic war games. To try and get their soldiers used to the real experience.
I can see your point that training helps determine a soldiers level of "professional" ability. However, in most cases drafted soldiers will always be behind the power curve of a volunteered, established army. I'm not saying that being a volunteer soldier makes you necessarily any "better" then a drafted soldier. I just think that there tends to be more experience and more dedication from someone who is volunteering for military duty, as opposed to someone who is essentially shanghai'd into it.
Anyhow - diverging topic again.
Guess it can't be helped as much as we try to stay focused on 1.
#40
Abyss
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Posted 05 June 2006 - 02:08 PM
Bhargast to Itkovian, MoI, end of Capustan conflict, roughly transcribed...
B: "Soldier, you lead a tribe of women."
I: "I do sir. And the Grey Swords are the better for it."
B: "You lucky dawg, you."
-Abyss, may not have remembered that exactly right, but figures the point is clear.
B: "Soldier, you lead a tribe of women."
I: "I do sir. And the Grey Swords are the better for it."
B: "You lucky dawg, you."
-Abyss, may not have remembered that exactly right, but figures the point is clear.
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