[Dolorous Menhir]

QB left the Shadow Cult, and it doesn't seem to have affected his powers at all. The use of priestly as opposed to mage power is a very confused issue throughout the series.

[Dark Mac]

Hetan said:

Nope... Scabs did that all on his lonesome. And besides wounding a warren is dangerous and leaves it vulnerable.. they wouldn't want that.

Ah, but KE wasn't really wounded, it was just made into a bunch of little pieces. All those pieces seem perfectly healthy, except for the one that Icarium actually shattered. Hell, a civilization even managed to form inside one of them.

Scabby could definitely have a good reason to want KE to be turned into a bunch of little pieces, although I'm not really sure what that reason would be. Maybe he didn't want any of the other Edur to be able to become powerful enough to challenge him, and splitting up KE prevented that?

[fan_83]

priest gets their powers through the gods they worship, a mage takes teh power directly from the warren but has to contend with the protectors who might be offended..

it was discussed in MT i think between onrack, trull and the other imass

[Abyss]

I tend to fall on the side thinking that Scabby didn't know what would happen when he killed a. Sorrit; b. the Edur royals; c. both.

But there is clearly a problem with the warren being fractured, considering that nothing good has come from any chunk we've seen, with the possible exception of M/R, which may be human aspected and not a chunk of KE at all, rather, a 'descendant'.

I vaguely recall a comment, perhaps in DG, (Mappo re: Tremolor, maybe?) that an Azath House can anchor a wandering chunk of warren... perhaps that's what happened at the OdhanHouse before Iccy went bugnuts and trashed the place?

- Abyss, hates when guests don't clean up after themselves.

[Monoch Ochem]

@ Dolorous: but who's to say what the source of Quick's Meanas was anyway? I mean, Kulp wasn't a priest but still used Meanas. Quick's power over Meanas may have been altered by him leaving the cult...diminished even but the 12 souls and his growing power may have compensated for or exceeded what power he used to wield as a priest.

As for Tayschrenn, I don't know what D'rek's warren is called but I guess, as a Demidrek, Tayschrenn would have wielded it. One thing is for sure though, he is a High Mage of Telas, separate from any theurgy. I think being a mage only adds to the power of the priesthood....the priesthood therefore doesn't necessarily determine the warren. It would seem that Mael is in truth too complacent, which may account for Rel's power over Ruse (someone said as much in TB).... but if Mael ejected him...cut him off, he may or may not still be a powerful sorceror depending on his own capabilities.

[tiam]

I dont think they draw powerf from the God merely the warren. Even then we dont see anyone using Feners warren for example in a way similar to telas. In an attacking form i mean. Also (v small NOK reference) in NOK it mentions the Cult of Rashan and this is recognised because of the scarifcation. SO maybe QB was just a mage of Meanas aswelll as a high priest. Or what i think seems more likely your either a mage then become a priest or like Tayschrenn you become an acolyte of the temple and then become a mage and a priest at the same time.

As for Tay being able to wield dreks power yes i agree he would have being almost Demidrek (he was ousted remember from the temple of Kartool). But what does that mean? he could travel using Dreks warren? In NOK (Sorry relevant) Tay says his magical defences havnt been brushed aside like this since his days of schooling in the temple which means in the Temple of Drek they teach you the ways of magic but every one has their own aspect. Like Tattersails POV in GOTM when theres thgat speech about how she became a mage. Find your gate. Open it a crack and what comes out is yours to shape.

Sorcery is aspected to people. Yes accomplished wizards like tay can have more than one. But their main warren will always be the one they open naturally.

[Monoch Ochem]

The God may have more of a part to play in it Tiam. When Banaschar was walking through the crowd, he sensed that Autumn had arrived and it was once again the season of the Worm. He sensed that D'rek was active and it awakened his sensibilities once more. He was able to detect much more..it also made his Mockra warren more potent.

[Dark Mac]

So then, tiam...where did the power of the gods come from before the Warrens were made?

[fan_83]

priestly magic is the magic channeled form the gods.. we have no idea where the gods get that power from but i believe that its the warrens power merely channeled through the god so that the priests do not have to contend with the protectors of the warren that a normal mage iwll face.. this does not mean that a priest cannot be a mage or vice versa..

a god derive power from its worshipper i believe, and some from his own from control of a warren

[Morgoth]

say that priesthood can be a short-cut to magical powers and that some of the affinity remains even if you are cut of from the direct influence of the god..?

[Dravon]

One thing to add about the Iccy, Sorrit, KE thing. If it was Sorrit that Scabby killed( and i agree it is likely it just seems SE's style) and delivered the first wound to KE, then iccy is ALOT older then we think. Because we know Iccy knew Sorrit so either Iccy is younger and it is a diff drag Scabby killed or it is Sorrit and Iccy has been traveling Wu since before the elder gods were around. And that would make sence and explain his power and where he learned how to make his machines=)

[tiam]

it wouldnt make him older than the EG. They are the oldest entity on Mearth (much better than Wu cheers Abyss.) but they couldnt come to Mearth because the KCCm matrons were keeping them away. I think Iccy was around when the K chain were otherwise how would he know how to build like that

[Dravon]

I dont think Iccy is older then the EG's no. What i said he has been around longer then them, meaning on Wu/mearth because the K'chain kept them away. Which again really begs the question who is his mommy!? Either way it still means he has been around for atleast 300,000years or so maybe more. I wonder if he and Rake have ever met in that time i remeber Rake mentioning him in GOTM.

[Monoch Ochem]

Apparently, Icarium was made by the NOs. A weapon. Against what? If Osserc's suggestion in MT is correct, the Elder gods were MD's first children...not the Tiste Andii. Feather Witch's casting seemed to imply that Fire and Dolmen (Chaos and MD?) clashed repeatedly. The Errant seemed to have been the arbiter/cause of these clashes. If the Elders were MD's first children, they would be older than Icarium because the Azath rose in response to the powerful warring entities in this violent time. I assume that amone those entities were the Elders....like K'rul, Mael, Kilmandaros etc.

But I think there are Elders and then there are ELDERS. Togg, for example, noted that K'rul, Sister of Cold Nights and Draconus were much younger than he was. Togg, of course, is Elder but he might have been one of those really ELDER (elemental) forces (more along the lines of Edgewalker) that were thrown around in the Chaotic maelstrom predating those of MD's children such as K'rul.

I'm trying to patch together how Wu came to be...Feather Witch is the only one who seems to delve into that history.

[Dark Mac]

I really doubt that the EGs are MD's children. If they were, how were the KCCM able to repel them, when they couldn't do the same to Ruin or Rake?

[Monoch Ochem]

Why do you say that the KCCM repelled the EGs Dark Mac? I haven't heard of any confrontations...the KCCM enslaved the Jaghut.

As for Ruin and Rake, well we have no evidence of Rake clashing with KCCM. Ruin and Scabandari decimated their Andii and Edur armies to defeat the KCCM. The KCCM were already weakened by civil war and it still took considerable effort from the Tistes.

As for the MD thing: "It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.' He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.' (MT p. 278)

The gods who opposed and killed Scabandari were Mael and Kilmandaros; both Elder. Contextually, Osserc could only have been referring to the Elder gods as MD's first children.

[fan_83]

the kccm repelled the eg as mentioned by kallor in moi i think.. he mentioned about how the kccm has enough power to prevent the eg from entering this world..
iccy was not made by the NO.. they only used and shaped him to become a weapon.. he is already was a crazy guy wandering around destroying hwole civilizations until the no decided enough was enough and set a guide onto him to manage, contorl and shape him in the case when the **** hits the fan

[Dark Mac]

Monoch Ochem said:

Why do you say that the KCCM repelled the EGs Dark Mac? I haven't heard of any confrontations...the KCCM enslaved the Jaghut.

Someone says that they did so. Kallor, maybe? Maybe someone else.

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As for Ruin and Rake, well we have no evidence of Rake clashing with KCCM. Ruin and Scabandari decimated their Andii and Edur armies to defeat the KCCM. The KCCM were already weakened by civil war and it still took considerable effort from the Tistes.

I'm talking about just getting into Wu, not fighting against the KCCM.

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As for the MD thing: "It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.' He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.' (MT p. 278)

That would imply that the Tiste Andii DID have a sire. Lookign at that again, it seems to be implying that Rake, Ruin, and Andarist are none of them Tiste Andii. All three of them are certainly unique, so that would fit, IMO.