[Dravon]

Monoch Ochem said:

Apparently, Icarium was made by the NOs. A weapon. Against what? If Osserc's suggestion in MT is correct, the Elder gods were MD's first children...not the Tiste Andii. Feather Witch's casting seemed to imply that Fire and Dolmen (Chaos and MD?) clashed repeatedly. The Errant seemed to have been the arbiter/cause of these clashes. If the Elders were MD's first children, they would be older than Icarium because the Azath rose in response to the powerful warring entities in this violent time. I assume that amone those entities were the Elders....like K'rul, Mael, Kilmandaros etc.

But I think there are Elders and then there are ELDERS. Togg, for example, noted that K'rul, Sister of Cold Nights and Draconus were much younger than he was. Togg, of course, is Elder but he might have been one of those really ELDER (elemental) forces (more along the lines of Edgewalker) that were thrown around in the Chaotic maelstrom predating those of MD's children such as K'rul.

I'm trying to patch together how Wu came to be...Feather Witch is the only one who seems to delve into that history.

I think the whole NO's creating Iccy to be a weapn is more that they made him their wep and honed him after he killed the Azath and lost his memory. Like if you joined they Army and you were trained to kill ,your instructer could say he made you a weapon. But as for Iccy i think he pretty much predates the NO's.

[Monoch Ochem]

Dark Mac said:

That would imply that the Tiste Andii DID have a sire. Lookign at that again, it seems to be implying that Rake, Ruin, and Andarist are none of them Tiste Andii. All three of them are certainly unique, so that would fit, IMO.

It was said that Osserc himself slept with MD to spawn the Tiste Liosan. Before him, the wording suggests something along the lines of MD 'retreating' from Light to spawn the Edur but the Andii are supposed to be her own progeny. None of this (or anything I've ever read) even remotely suggests that Rake, Ruin or Andarist are not ALL anything but Tiste Andii... Osserc first refers to Wu's gods having the power to oppose Scabandari. Then he's later alluding to their pre-eminence: they, not even the Tiste Andii, were MD's first children....i.o.w., they would be powerful indeed since they predate both the Tiste Andii and the Tiste Edur.

[Abyss]

I thought Ossi and the Liosan (is it me or does that read like a 60s hippy band name) were the children of Father Light and Mommy D. That or this 'Father Light' managed it all by himself like MD did with the Andii.

Of course, the Edur on Leth called Scabby 'Father Shadow'... so perhaps the Liosan are confused.

- Abyss, aka Father Pepsi Lite .

[Monoch Ochem]

I might myself be a little muddled here Abyss but isn't Osserc Father Light?

[Dark Mac]

Osric is the Champion of HHL, and the First Son of FL, with no mother. He slept with Tiam (who is apparently his sister?), not MD.

Also: Osric refers to Rake as having the power to defeat Scabs in that same conversation, so I think it's just as likely that the three brothers are not true Andii.

[Illuyankas]

MD created all the other forces first, including FL, then made R/D/R and the Andii. FL then made Osserc and the Liosan, and after that made Scabby and the Edur with MD, triggering one of the splits between MD and the Andii.

During all this, R/D/R, Osserc and Scabby (plus assorted others) drank from Tiam's blood to become draconean Soletaken, then some of them like Scabby and Osserc porked Tiam while in dragon form to produce the three sisters and likely still more unnamed ones too.

[tiam]

It seems likely that MD first kids were the dragons due to evryones speculation that Rake and ruin etc are not all TA. This means they inherited Tiams blood. Also a few times in the series Rake is noted to have less blood of MD (thereofre TA) and more of Tiams blood

[Dolorous Menhir]

Come on people, Rake is a Tiste Andii. You might even claim he is the ancestor (along with his brothers) of all the Andii.

He was born/created a pure-blood Andii, and later became Soletaken Eleint. It was only after that point that he was of "more draconean than Tiste". Proof: Andarist gave up his Soletaken Eleint blood - and reverted to being a pureblood Andii, because that his what he and his brothers originally were.

Illuyankas - you say that MD created everything, including Father Light (who the Family Tree says is not Osric, but Osric's father). But you leave Tiam out of your potted history - where do you argue she came into it, also a product of MD?

Also, the Edur naming of Scabby as Father Shadow, Emurlahnis, is not an indicator of Scabby's origins. As we know their histories are not at all reliable, and we later find out in BH that Scabby usurped the Royal line of the Edur to gain control. If we assume the Royal Line were the Edur analogues of Rake & Osric (the first, highest, members of the race) then this means Scabby is just a vanilla Edur (though Eleint), not an equal to Rake.

Note he could only defeat Ruin by betrayal, and that after Ruin took a serious beating to defeat the KCCM Matron (loss of his weapons). I don't think Scabby could've bested Ruin in a fair fight, and the clear implication was that Rake, if he'd been able to enact his revenge, would've blown Scabby away.

[Illuyankas]

That's the thing, is she the creator of all entities in the universe? Or just those in this realm? Both Tiam and the CG came from other realms, were they both from the same one? Are there creator deities like MD in those realms, and if so, would they be affected by MD's death from KCCM-ritual?

Personally, I think she's a facet of one overarching god, but the KCCM will still kill that god along with the universe, and also I have a feeling Tiam is from the KCCM realm, which is different from the CG's home, which could tie in to the 'KCNR are after Tiam for last resurrection' theory.

[tiam]

sorry but on topic of the thread in the back of the MOI glossary Shedenul is another name for soliel who we know is the goddess of life. So i think its safe to say that the goddess of life and a name like sheDENUL we can attribute her to the warren of Denul

[Monoch Ochem]

I'm with you there Dolorous...I don't understand this speculation about whether Anomander Rake, Andarist and Silchas Ruin are Tiste Andii. What next: Tiam isn't Eleint???

Anyway, any idea who was Osserc's father then? Who is Father Light?

[tiam]

Im not saying there not TA but on more than ne occasion Rake is said to have more tiam blood in him than MD. Just a fact in the books not my opinion