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There are far more EGs, as I see it, than listed on the first post. I thought it was clear in the Cotillion, EW, Dragons conversation that everything relates to an EG like feelings and emotions to far more wide spread and significant things like Dark and Light, iirc it also suggested that the EGs were seperated/spread between worlds so we will probably never hear mention of all of them, there are also the forgotten Gods in Mael's place.
btw High House Dark is not linked to KG, only Elder Races have access to that warren - Tiste Andii, also applies to Shadow which doesnt have access to KE.
the elder gods
#22 Guest_FrenchyFan_*
Posted 05 May 2006 - 08:25 AM
We can guess too that emotions can be more or less considerated as elemental force as Cottillon guesses that their is azatahs for those things...
#23 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 05 May 2006 - 09:18 AM
Danforth said:
btw High House Dark is not linked to KG, only Elder Races have access to that warren - Tiste Andii, also applies to Shadow which doesnt have access to KE.
A house being linked/having access to a warren, does not mean every member/follower or whatever you call it can use that warren … but Rake as Knight of HH Dark has definitely access to KG and so there is somehow a connection between the House and the warren. And concerning HH Shadow even as Shadowthrone cannot (at least I think so) access KE in a direct way he is always considered as an ursurper and it isn’t even clear if he sits on the real throne of shadow … the Shadow Realm (inhabited by HH Shadow) itself seems to be part of or is Emurlahn so there is definitely a connection.
And btw elder races can be aligned to the Houses ... see Gethol, Rake, the Unbound etc.
But I do absolutely agree that it seems we haven’t seen the whole bunch of elder gods by far. The forgotten gods are a good hint on that. Thanks Danforth! Totally forgot(!) about them (see the tragedy in this?).
#24
Dolorous Menhir 
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 02:27 PM
The throne on Drift Avalii is the true Throne of Shadow. The Shadow realm is describe as a kind of gateway realm (to Emurlahn?), or perhaps the largest surviving fragment. The Throne within Shadow, in the Shadow Keep, is not the same as the one on Drift Avalii, and I think Shadowthrone derived his name originally from the one in the Shadow Realm.
It seemed that, as of HoC, ST had not sat on the true Throne (on Drift Avalii), perhaps because Andarist would have prevented it. I remember reading that he had "claimed" it somewhere, which seems to be distinct from "holding" the Throne. It's quite possible that he had sat upon it by BH though, especially with all these comments on his being "stretched thin". And he was defending it in person, which he did not do before.
Perhaps if he has truly claimed it now, then he can claim some new access to KE...
It seemed that, as of HoC, ST had not sat on the true Throne (on Drift Avalii), perhaps because Andarist would have prevented it. I remember reading that he had "claimed" it somewhere, which seems to be distinct from "holding" the Throne. It's quite possible that he had sat upon it by BH though, especially with all these comments on his being "stretched thin". And he was defending it in person, which he did not do before.
Perhaps if he has truly claimed it now, then he can claim some new access to KE...
#25 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 05 May 2006 - 03:26 PM
Dolorous Menhir said:
The throne on Drift Avalii is the true Throne of Shadow. The Shadow realm is describe as a kind of gateway realm (to Emurlahn?), or perhaps the largest surviving fragment. The Throne within Shadow, in the Shadow Keep, is not the same as the one on Drift Avalii, and I think Shadowthrone derived his name originally from the one in the Shadow Realm.
Remember the disussion of Cotillion (did I say already that I like this guy?) EW and the dragons, where the Eleint stated that the real throne isn't even in the fragment they were just in and Cotillion asked them how they know that ST is and the Eleint got insecure?
So even they are not sure that he has no access to the power of the real throne. Sitting the Throne does in my opinion not mean physically being there but accessing it ... maybe ST does?
#26 Guest_Shapefinder_*
Posted 06 May 2006 - 06:17 AM
There is also the unnamed Elder Goddess that Mappo visits on Jacuruku after he's healed. She tells Mappo that she has spent a long time hiding, which means that she cannot be Nightchill and what he see of her doesn't really vibe with what he know of Kilmandaros. Which means that she is either a previously unseen EG or Sechul Lath. Her aspect may be related to the moon and/or somehow to spiders, weaving or concealment. We also have the scene in which Cotillion claims that Mogora is a follower of Ardata, and we know that the Elder Goddess that Mappo meets blames Mogora for his being there and knows her in some way it seems possible, if not likely, that Ardata is the name of the Goddess.
So, it's not a definite addition to the list but there is some evidence of a new EG not included in any of the glossaries.
So, it's not a definite addition to the list but there is some evidence of a new EG not included in any of the glossaries.
#27
Morgoth
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:41 AM
Ardata was a ruler of a region belonging to the Kallorian empire.. doesn't seem like the typical occupation of an EG.. though ofc, that does not remove the possibility
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#28
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:50 AM
The woman who healed Mappo was definitely Ardata, and Mappo at least seemed to think her an Elder power.
And if it seems strange that an EG would command a kingdom subject to Kallor, consider the example of Nightchill, who spent a long time as a High Mage subject to the Empire. Even better, Mael, who has found happiness as a lowly manservant.
And if it seems strange that an EG would command a kingdom subject to Kallor, consider the example of Nightchill, who spent a long time as a High Mage subject to the Empire. Even better, Mael, who has found happiness as a lowly manservant.
#29
Morgoth
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 10:05 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
The woman who healed Mappo was definitely Ardata, and Mappo at least seemed to think her an Elder power.
And if it seems strange that an EG would command a kingdom subject to Kallor, consider the example of Nightchill, who spent a long time as a High Mage subject to the Empire. Even better, Mael, who has found happiness as a lowly manservant.
And if it seems strange that an EG would command a kingdom subject to Kallor, consider the example of Nightchill, who spent a long time as a High Mage subject to the Empire. Even better, Mael, who has found happiness as a lowly manservant.
YEs, ruling an empire wouldn't have been that strange, though taking into account the asumed effect of ST continuing to rule the Malazan empire, it sounds somewhat unlikely.
However, my point was not the strangeness of an EG ruling a nation but rather the strangeness of an EG being a vasal ruler to a mortal human emperor.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#30
namo
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:02 PM
Morgoth said:
However, my point was not the strangeness of an EG ruling a nation but rather the strangeness of an EG being a vasal ruler to a mortal human emperor.
Kallor isn't exactly any human emperor...
#31
tiam
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:42 PM
i agree but nightchill technically served a mortal emporer and kallor had walked the land when the imass were children and the imassr ritual was over 100 000 years before the death of kallors empire. kallor claimed his empire had only taken 50 years to carve and claimed this was impressive. so he must be atleast 200 000 years old as the imass must havebeen going for a while before they became the tlan imass. some of this speculation and some of it is fact
#32
Morgoth
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:23 PM
We've pretty much established that the walked the earth quote is merly an exageration. Kallor is ancient for a human being, but the Imass lived long before the emergence of humanity, so he was probably just bragging..
And there's a huge difference between serving like Nightchill did, and serve as Ardatha did.. at least in my opinion
And there's a huge difference between serving like Nightchill did, and serve as Ardatha did.. at least in my opinion
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#33 Guest_Shapefinder_*
Posted 06 May 2006 - 03:03 PM
Can someone place the section that talks about Ardata serving under Kallor? I've tried skimming MoI but I can't find it.
Rereading the section in which Mappo meets probably-Ardata, we do only have Mappo's word that she's an EG, although she also doesn't deny it. Maybe Ardata is merely an older ascendent, but not an elemental force? If she lived during Kallor's reign, it's possible that she too was on the path and then ascended and then rose to godhood after the fall. That would make sense, considering that she talks to Mappo about ageing and changing over time.
I'm still curious to know what her aspect is. Is she somehow connected to shadow, which would explain why Shadowthrone assumes she'd side with him in the upcoming war? Is she connected to the moon, which is the source of power in the ritual that is used to heal Mappo? Is she Patron of Arachnids?
Rereading the section in which Mappo meets probably-Ardata, we do only have Mappo's word that she's an EG, although she also doesn't deny it. Maybe Ardata is merely an older ascendent, but not an elemental force? If she lived during Kallor's reign, it's possible that she too was on the path and then ascended and then rose to godhood after the fall. That would make sense, considering that she talks to Mappo about ageing and changing over time.
I'm still curious to know what her aspect is. Is she somehow connected to shadow, which would explain why Shadowthrone assumes she'd side with him in the upcoming war? Is she connected to the moon, which is the source of power in the ritual that is used to heal Mappo? Is she Patron of Arachnids?
#34
Murrin
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 03:24 PM
I got the impression of her as spider-goddess, but there are other connections there, I agree.
The reference to Kallor was somewhere in her conversation with Mappo, I think. She said something about her kingdom, and his empire and his destruction if it, anyway.
The reference to Kallor was somewhere in her conversation with Mappo, I think. She said something about her kingdom, and his empire and his destruction if it, anyway.
#35
Danforth
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 04:19 PM
Daemon said:
Rake as Knight of HH Dark has definitely access to KG and so there is somehow a connection between the House and the warren.
Rake can access KG because he is Tiste Andii and probably has such mastery because he is a son of MD not because of the position he holds in HH Dark.
As noted about the HH Shadow it was mentioned that the House is the Gateway to Emurlahn but so far we have seen no magic (power) link between them.
Daemon said:
The forgotten gods are a good hint on that. Thanks Danforth! Totally forgot(!) about them (see the tragedy in this?).
np
#36
namo
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Posted 08 May 2006 - 09:35 AM
tiam said:
i agree but nightchill technically served a mortal emporer and kallor had walked the land when the imass were children and the imassr ritual was over 100 000 years before the death of kallors empire. kallor claimed his empire had only taken 50 years to carve and claimed this was impressive. so he must be atleast 200 000 years old as the imass must havebeen going for a while before they became the tlan imass. some of this speculation and some of it is fact
At some point it is mentioned that Kallor's empire rose when the (human) 1st Empire was declining - so quite some time after the Imass 1st Empire.
#38 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:18 AM
Kallor’s Empire was rising parallel to the First Human Empire (a little later perhaps, won’t deny Dessimbaleckis his title) on a distant continent to 7C (i.e. Jacuruku). A time when the Imass had become the T’lan Imass long in the past (so their Empire was long gone then). As Kallor is/was human he could not have walked the earth when the Imass (as they are pre-human) were still children, that has to be one of his exaggerations that fits perfectly to his hubris.
One thing to add, humans were the offspring of the Imass (somewhere in MoI) who had not taken part in the ritual and the ritual was the end of the First Empire.
One thing to add, humans were the offspring of the Imass (somewhere in MoI) who had not taken part in the ritual and the ritual was the end of the First Empire.
#39
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:49 AM
The Imass Empire was forged in the Ritual, not destroyed by it. I don't think the Throne of the Imass existed before they were all bound by the Ritual under one power. There seems to have been a disparate clan structure in existence before that.
#40 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:57 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
The Imass Empire was forged in the Ritual, not destroyed by it. I don't think the Throne of the Imass existed before they were all bound by the Ritual under one power. There seems to have been a disparate clan structure in existence before that.
But I'm pretty sure that Onos T'oolan was referenced as First Sword in the Prologue of MoI before the ritual was performed. But will check on this tonight don't have a copy available right now.
