[Imperial Historian]

the kallor-ardatha quote is from the MOI prologue

"Fifty years, dear rivals, to conquer an entire continent. Oh perhaps Ardatha still held out - always late in sending tribute- but I ignored such petty gestures. she had fled did you know. The bitch." (MOI, TP, pg 14)

[Abyss]

Seems likely Ardatha eventually ascended to be QoD.

- Abyss, Dreams of Queens. Wait, i take that back...

[Illuyankas]

Something to do with the resemblence between the two - divination, threads, some more things I can't remember. Seeing as Ardata/Ardatha seems to be her name, while the QoD's true name is T'riss, not to mention that Brood, Rake and T'riss needed to be wandering Wu just after the Fall for her to ascend into the QoD if she is Ardatha, I don't think it's right. It is a good idea though.

[Dark Mac]

Daemon said:

Kallor’s Empire was rising parallel to the First Human Empire (a little later perhaps, won’t deny Dessimbaleckis his title) on a distant continent to 7C (i.e. Jacuruku). A time when the Imass had become the T’lan Imass long in the past (so their Empire was long gone then). As Kallor is/was human he could not have walked the earth when the Imass (as they are pre-human) were still children, that has to be one of his exaggerations that fits perfectly to his hubris.

Well, the First Empire only falls in 69000 BS, according to MT. Kallor's Empire died in 130000 BS. I doubt the First Empire was very powerful by the time Kallor's died.

Quote

One thing to add, humans were the offspring of the Imass (somewhere in MoI) who had not taken part in the ritual and the ritual was the end of the First Empire.

I'm not sure about that. Barghast/Moranth/Toblakai/Fenn/etc. are mentioned as being those Imass remainders. I think the humans would have evolved in parallel with the Imass, only slightly later.

[Illuyankas]

Those are the Imass/Toblakhai remnants, Dark Mac.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Raest seemed to think that humans were descendents of the Imass, as he first discovered them while marching on Darujhistan. And Ardata can't be the QoD, since her name is T'riss. Plus we have contemporary descriptions of both Ardata and QoD, and they are not at all similar.

[Imperial Historian]

I'm fairly sure QoD and Ardatha are distinct, they seem to diifferent in there roles and appearence, plus Qod isnt an elder god.

By the way can someone confirm to me whether there's any justification for the ardata spelling of ardatha, I can only find source info on the ardatha spelling, but the mix up seems common...

[Dolorous Menhir]

It's spelled Ardata in BH, when Cotillion says it to Mogora. And it's Ardatha in MoI, when Kallor mentions her. Is that what you were asking?

[Illuyankas]

Danyah said:

Toblakai = Imass + Jaghut


*Runs away laughing*

Why laugh? It's probably true.

(and yet another theory of mine is 'purloined' and used by other members willynilly )

[Dolorous Menhir]

Imass & Jaghut? Seems a bit unlikely...the Imass are noted for their massive campaings of genocide against the Jaghut, I doubt they took the time to get down and spawn some new mixed-breed races between bouts of racial cleansing.

Besides, the Imass would have also tried to wipe out the TT if they were Jaghut-derived, similar to how they presumably treat Jhags-who-aren't-Icarium.

Besides Toblakai don't seem to have any Jaghut (or Jhag for that matter) characteristics. They are taller, use different magic, are very different in temperament and intellect. The only evidence for is Bellurdans assertion to possessing Jaghut blood in GotM, and that's not given much credence.

[Brys Beddict]

I figure Kilmandaros to be earth aspected simply because one punch from her shattered Bloodeye's skull. That and I think Mael mentioned something bout her being earth-aspected.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Danyah said:

Imass and TT are both described as squat and muscular.

Umm, no they aren't. The Imass are short, the Toblakai certainly aren't.

Bellurdan was called a "Thelomen giant". Tattersail comments on how he dwarfed her even crouched over Nightchills remains. The Toblakai with the enkaral soul from HoC was three times the height of a man, if I remember right - Kalam was shocked at how large it actually was, since he'd originally thought it to be much further away.

Karsa certainly seems to be much larger than any human yet seen - hence humans being called "children". The Jaghut, though taller than the average human, are not as tall as the Toblakai. Makes it much less likely they are the fruits of Imass/Jaghut pairings, I think they are an older race that lacks the status of Founding Race for some reason - JUST AS THE TISTE RACES DO, YET NO-ONE CLAIMS THIS MEANS THEY ARE ERES OR IMASS DESCENDENTS. Perhaps the TT came from another realm also.

[Illuyankas]

Well, we know that MD and FL created them. But to my mind at least, TI/J hybrids seem more likely than another visiting race.

As for your earlier post, yes, the Imass went on a huge genocidal killing spree after they discovered how the Jaghut Tyrants had oppressed them. I think Raest says something about it in GOTM (don't have a copy, so can't check), how until they rallied together and performed the Ritual of Tellann they were satisfied in their ignorance. And he may say something about interspecies mating, I really need a new GOTM to verify this. Anyway, they knew nothing better for around the figure of 100,000 years? Your figure, by the way.

Also, the Tiste Liosan tolerate the Edur despite their 'taint' of Darkness, even if they view them as no better than servants. But, who's to say that the T'lan Imass DIDN'T wipe out the TT? All that are left are degraded remnants and races with extremely thinned blood - Barghast, Fenn, Trell. Those are not even close to the level of jaghut blood that jhags are>