[caladanbrood]

In return for the position of King of HHC, Kallor was to discover the location of Moon's Spawn for the CG. He failed to do so, so I imagine he got busted down to Reaver as a kind of punishment.

[Danyah]

It's as Legatus says. By the end of the MoI, Paran and co find an Edur all crushed by the pressure of the sea. Guess we agreed that that Edur was the one Mael sent to the depths in MT (for molesting Tehol I think). By that time Rhulad was already King, because of the sword. And Kallor was approached by Gethol even before that, somewhere around Capustan. So the CG offers unique vacancies to different people, proving again he's double crossing everybody. That or a late GoTMism.

[Gem Windcaster]

Illuyankas;189501 said:

No, it's accurate. Memory's a bitch, ain't it?

Indeed. Besides, the CG screws people. What he 'promises' you shouldn't count on. Heh, think Kallor has been bested in ambition? *chuckle* Will be fun to see what happens.

[Legatus Principus]

Again that crippled baddie. Betraying Kallor (or rather punishing him, to go along with brood) and then promoting one to Knighthood, who has no interest in holding that position.
Questions:
If you don't want to serve in a House, how can you be forced to do so?
And could Kallor leave HHC, if he wanted?

[Danyah]

Guess so... Dassem defied Hood too. Just have to watch your back... and your family. But Kallor doesn't seem like a family man so...

[Legatus Principus]

What about Karsa then? Was he asked to join HHC?
Did he accept his position? I do not think so. He is bound by chains. Maybe something like that happened to Kallor too.
Besides, HHC gives him some protection, some assistance. Because killing Whiskeyjack, brought some really nasty enemies with it. Rake being WJ's friend ...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Legatus Principus;189966 said:

Again that crippled baddie. Betraying Kallor (or rather punishing him, to go along with brood) and then promoting one to Knighthood, who has no interest in holding that position.
Questions:
If you don't want to serve in a House, how can you be forced to do so?
And could Kallor leave HHC, if he wanted?

There are plenty of examples of people taking up positions in Houses without their knowledge or consent (Trull as Knight of Shadow), or as acolytes of a God (Gruntle, Heboric). That's not quite the same as refusing to take a position, but I think it is possible to be forced into a role.

Kallor wasn't forced though. His status as Reaver has never been confirmed, and although Rhulad is certainly King in Chains as of BH, that doesn't mean he was in MoI. Kallor may be happy to be Reaver anyway. The dictionary definition of Reaver is very close to my idea of Kallor.

[Legatus Principus]

Right! Willingly or not? Who gives a d..?
There's lots of things in ascendancy and houses that have yet to be answered. And then ... off to war.

The Kallor vs Rhulad thing could turn out to be messy, if Kallor thinks he would be better suited for that position. Why not getting rid of that young TE covered in coins? (Just a suggestion, of course)

[Lonehunter]

Just to throw in another angle, would Kallor necessarily have to know his position isn't actual King. Maybe he is still to find out about this betrayal and his reaction is still to be seen.

[ASAGO]

I am with you I think you got it just about right, I just dont recall when in memories of ice Baudin joins the House of Death

[Mentalist]

all right, i have several comments..
First of all a really minor detail... why are there STILL 7 in the HHC? Karsa released the female Unbound when he tossed her bones into the Raraku Sea at teh end of HoC
Secondly, Baudin's role as knight is mentionde by Brooch in MoI, and at the end of HoC, right before Cotillion sends Cutter to Guard Felisin Younger, he tells him Baudin's story and states that "he became Knight of HHD"
Thirdly, Kallor was never openly told that he'll be King. He as told that "the position of King is not full", and the Crippled God was left free to make his assumptions--just another display of the devious precision of the CG.
Where in Hight House Light should we put Ossric & Loric?

Lastly, an argument to the "Withal is the Deathslayer" theme--In GoTM, it is mentioned that every time you look at a card, you notece new details.. perhaps if e continue looking, we could eventually see Withal about to knocck down the tent? Lol, it's a stretch, i know, but just maybe?

[wintermute]

I think that a position in the deck of dragons is not character specific (it can be filled by anybody), so if another unbound t'lan imass were to swear allegience to the crippled god, he could fill the role. As to high house light, I would assume that Osserc is opposite Anomander Rake, as Champion.

Also, reading the books I was under the impression that Rhulad was the mortal sword of the house of chains, rather than king, which seems to fit with someone in memories of ice talking about the new house, and the mortal sword being a (paraphrased) warrior without par in a far-off land, which seems to fit Rhulad.

[wintermute]

I got the idea of Rhulad being mortal sword of the house of chains from this, (Hood talking to Quick Ben)
"...An ancient warrior seeks to become reaver, whilst the house has found, in a distant land, its Mortal Sword...Most disturbing of all, ancient power trembles around the last of the dread cards"
Memories of Ice, p506.
I think that Rhulad fits the description of a warrior from a distant land better than he does that of an ancient power, which I would assume to be the crippled god, seeing as it's the house he is most aligned with.

[Mentalist]

hmmm... From Genabackis, 7 Cities might also be a distant land... and that's where Karsa is becoming the Knight of HHC.. that's more like Mortal sword than a King would be..
and Rhulad's descrition as King is clearly given in the Bonehunters reading... the card described as King is 100% Rhulad, rigth down to the screaming

and yeah, also, the concept of Mortal sword, Shield anvil, and Destriant are God-specific, not House specific, as far as we know... and so far no one openly worships the CG...

[Dolorous Menhir]

A lot of time passed between MoI and BH. Rhulad could've been Mortal Sword to the CG in MoI and then King of High House Chains in BH. This would make sense if we're supposed to have MT concurrent with MoI, so Rhulad was not yet Emperor at the time of the Mortal Sword reference. But it could also refer to Karsa, as noted. Though Lether is a better fit to "distant land" than Seven Cities is to Genebackis.

Felisin Fatter's people on Seven Cities openly worship the CG now. There may be other examples, but they aren't springing to mind just now.

[Danyah]

Well, the seventh closure was the time when "an emperor would ascend". He ascended to be King in Chains.Makes sense.

Karsa was meant to be Knight at that time, so I guess it's not really him. Mortal swords command armies for their God. Like Rhulad commanded the Edur.

[wintermute]

So Rhulad is the king in chains, fairly certainly. However, he could also be the crippled god's mortal sword. As far as I know, there is no rule against someone holding two positions in that fashion. It makes sense when you figure that almost everybody in House of Chains serves the crippled god in one form or another.

[AJL]

Smiles;72706 said:

I had got the impression somehow that Karsa was Deathslayer... Maybe I just think of him as being unaligned no matter what the CG wants and in opposition to Icarium!

I just finished Bonehunters, and this is exactly what I thought when I read it. And I thought that it was mentioned twice that there was a person that was on two cards, once on Seven Cities, and the other time in Malaz Harbor. I thought Karsa could be Deathslayer because (1) he is on another card (Knight of HHC); (2) he is a slayer who constantly deals death (this fits Icarium too); and (3) since Icarium is Lifeslayer, it fits that Karsa, who seems to be his counterpart, or the yin to his yang, would be Deathslayer. Anybody who says "It's obvious" is kidding himself.

[Malaclypse]

AJL;200024 said:

I just finished Bonehunters, and this is exactly what I thought when I read it. And I thought that it was mentioned twice that there was a person that was on two cards, once on Seven Cities, and the other time in Malaz Harbor. I thought Karsa could be Deathslayer because (1) he is on another card (Knight of HHC); (2) he is a slayer who constantly deals death (this fits Icarium too); and (3) since Icarium is Lifeslayer, it fits that Karsa, who seems to be his counterpart, or the yin to his yang, would be Deathslayer. Anybody who says "It's obvious" is kidding himself.

Alright, I've had enough of this. SE is not often clear about such things but this time he has been. The description of the Deathslayer card is the Crippled God precisely. The bit about holding two positions refers to the erroneous assumption that the Crippled God would naturally be the King in High House Chains.

Quote

'Squalid hut of skins and sticks, brazier, coughing out smoke, a hooded thing inside the hut, broken limbed, shackles sunk into the earth. Now who might that be?'
'That's impossible,' Gessler said, echoing Stormy's assertion. 'He can't be two things at once!'
'Why not?' Fiddler said, (BH UK Tpb, p. 640)