[Dadding]

Just chiming in to say that I thought Black Company got better with each subsequent book as well.

Also I finished Lord of the Rings for the first time - the whole thing. I found it pretty meh, but I knew I wouldn't love it going into it. Am I the only one who was a bit skeeved out by the whole Related to Men of the West = you're heroic because of your bloodline versus Not related (or muddied lineage) to Men of the West = you're heroic despite your bloodline, if you're heroic at all, which you probably aren't. Felt a bit too eugenics-y for me.

This post has been edited by Dadding: 26 January 2019 - 06:27 PM

[polishgenius]

No, because (although as with any 'one true king, hereditary rulers rock' plotline, it's outdated) it doesn't really do that at all. Several of the Men of the West aren't heroes at all and loads of people who aren't, including the Hobbits who are the biggest heroes of all, are. In fact you could make the case that one of the biggest parables of the whole book, a point made repeatedly, is that anyone can be a hero and anyone can fall.

[Dadding]

polishgenius, on 26 January 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

No, because (although as with any 'one true king, hereditary rulers rock' plotline, it's outdated) it doesn't really do that at all. Several of the Men of the West aren't heroes at all and loads of people who aren't, including the Hobbits who are the biggest heroes of all, are. In fact you could make the case that one of the biggest parables of the whole book, a point made repeatedly, is that anyone can be a hero and anyone can fall.

I'm probably reading too much into it I guess. I just ran across a few moments where someone would do something good and it would be said that "the blood of the Men of West still ran strongly in their veins," or someone would lament how far man had fallen and they weren't as great as the men of the west. And Aragorn was always compared favourably to other men precisely because of his great bloodline. Yet you're right, despite all that, heroes were often found in the most unlikely of places and/or bloodlines.

[Mentalist]

Dadding, on 26 January 2019 - 08:20 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 26 January 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

No, because (although as with any 'one true king, hereditary rulers rock' plotline, it's outdated) it doesn't really do that at all. Several of the Men of the West aren't heroes at all and loads of people who aren't, including the Hobbits who are the biggest heroes of all, are. In fact you could make the case that one of the biggest parables of the whole book, a point made repeatedly, is that anyone can be a hero and anyone can fall.

I'm probably reading too much into it I guess. I just ran across a few moments where someone would do something good and it would be said that "the blood of the Men of West still ran strongly in their veins," or someone would lament how far man had fallen and they weren't as great as the men of the west. And Aragorn was always compared favourably to other men precisely because of his great bloodline. Yet you're right, despite all that, heroes were often found in the most unlikely of places and/or bloodlines.

Tolkien definitely had a bit of a bias towards the West when it came to Men- they are starkly opposed to the Men of Harad or the East, who are seen as cruel, barbaric, and enthralled by Sauron's lies.

But a big part of this is the association of the "men of the West= civilization from the Golden Age". Every time some Elf speaks about the "Blood of the West" they are referring to the people who essentially had some Elven blood and were the closes to the elves and their gods (the Valar), so there's an obvious bias. This becomes clearer if you read the Appendices to "Return of the King" and then the "Silmarillion"

If you can track down fan translations of Nick Perumov's non-sanctioned, non-canonical "continuation of the history of Middle-Earth", The Ring of Darkness , I'd strongly recommend it, as it actually plays with a lot of these tropes, giving real insight into the traditionally "evil" groups of Men by providing them with charismatic figures of their own and presenting the dislike of the Elves, the Valar and what they stand for from a different angle)

[amphibian]

How many Perumov books have been fan translated? I read Godsdoom and loved it, but that's it for his English language official output.

[Mentalist]

amphibian, on 26 January 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

How many Perumov books have been fan translated? I read Godsdoom and loved it, but that's it for his English language official output.

I definitely saw at least chapter summaries floating around the webs a bunch of years ago.

"Ring of Darkness" books were essentially fan-fiction written for domestic consumption in the early 90s, and he sold the publishing rights to Eksmo for a pittance. Obviously no one ever bothered to check with the Tolkien estate about the legality of the whole thing (these were the Bad 90s, so "legal" was a difficult to define term).
I dunno if those translations/summaries are still around.

The fact that none others of his Consistent books have been translated despite the fact that Perumov lives and works in the States is a huge disappointment.

[polishgenius]

Mentalist, on 26 January 2019 - 08:36 PM, said:

Tolkien definitely had a bit of a bias towards the West when it came to Men- they are starkly opposed to the Men of Harad or the East, who are seen as cruel, barbaric, and enthralled by Sauron's lies.

This is true, but it's more of a lack of treatment of the men of the East (and potentially some racism since the East tends to stand in for the Ottomans/Asian invasions in general in the European myth-story he's creating) then pure valorisation of The West.

But on this:

Quote

I just ran across a few moments where someone would do something good and it would be said that "the blood of the Men of West still ran strongly in their veins," or someone would lament how far man had fallen and they weren't as great as the men of the west.

I think that's much of the point. People in the story think that way but the story itself mostly doesn't. There are also clear genetic benefits to being of Numenorian blood, particularly long life, but the story never makes out that this makes people better.

It's definitely true that Aragorn gets some bloodline exceptionalism but that's more royalty worship than a broader thing.


The backstory does make all this a lot more clear, in fairness. In the backstory the Men of the West fucked uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup!

[Mentalist]

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 26 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

Speaking of “Darkness” am I supposed to still be on the lookout for Turtledove Darkness #2 for you. Maybe it was 6? Been awhile since you said anything but I thought about it a few days ago when I was couped up in my room reading 1.

5 and 6, Please and thank you!

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 26 January 2019 - 11:31 PM

[Cyphon]

Just finished The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. A really great book, if bleak. The premise is essentially that a group of people, mainly Jesuits, are sent to Alpha Centuri to make first contact. The book follows the build-up, first contact and the aftermath as reported by the only survivor.

The pacing is steady, slows, and then is a rollercoaster towards the finale. Fantastically drawn characters whose strengths and flaws realistically drive the plot to its conclusion. Some great thought provoking commentary through the book too that have stuck with me days after I read it.

The only flaw was that as you knew how it ended the bleakness meant it took me longer to read it as I didn't want to see the end.

Need something a bit lighter now as a palate cleanser. Does make me want to pick up SE's Rejoice now to contrast it to his take on a first contact story after some of the comments by forumites on how good and non traditional it is.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 27 January 2019 - 10:33 PM

[Mentalist]

Finished Ship of Magic . It takes a while to get going, but towards the end it picks up. Still don't particularly care for any of the aristos, (and I actively despise Malta), but Kennit's story is pretty fascinating.

Trying to stay on top of my resolution to cut down the number of unread books I have at home, next I'll tackle Dan Simmons The Terror - which I bought in the same library sale as Ship of Magic

In commute, I'm about halfway through the next Peter Grant book, "Broken Homes". Good stuff so far, albeit nothing's really coming together yet.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 28 January 2019 - 01:29 AM

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 26 January 2019 - 11:31 PM, said:

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 26 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

Speaking of “Darkness” am I supposed to still be on the lookout for Turtledove Darkness #2 for you. Maybe it was 6? Been awhile since you said anything but I thought about it a few days ago when I was couped up in my room reading 1.

5 and 6, Please and thank you!

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 27 January 2019 - 12:08 AM, said:

Ok. BAM is getting on the sell used books train so if I see either(and they aren't completely ragged) I will grab for sure. Barring a miracle I don't think they will stock any new ones.

Damn... a few months ago and I would’ve given you the entire series for the cost of shipping.

[Salt-Man Z]

Mentalist, on 28 January 2019 - 01:27 AM, said:

next I'll tackle Dan Simmons The Terror - which I bought in the same library sale as Ship of Magic

That's a good haul.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Just finished TLoL. I had forgotten just how fucking fun and tight this book is. I really hope Thorn of Emberlain is a return to form (though, I'm a bit leery because it's reportedly the longest Gentleman Bastards book yet).

—

On to Bancroft's The Hod King, which sounds suspiciously like a play on God King.

[amphibian]

Foundryside is very, very good. The action scenes are superb and the characters vicious in a "still nicer than Monza Murcatto" way. I think my only criticism is that when two characters meet early on, the dialogue is a bit clunky in a "I was writing this for a movie adaptation" way. Everything else was wonderful and very moving.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Macros, on 18 January 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

Make sure your inner voice is switched to Stephen Fry, I read it in my head in his wonderfully sardonic voice.

I can confirm this was an excellent idea!

Finished it last night, really enjoyed it. So much so that I bought Heroes, which is due to arrive tomorrow.

Picked up Pat Barker's The Silence of the Girls - the Iliad retold from the point of view of the women of Troy. I studied Barker's Regeneration trilogy at A Level (and it was that rare occurrence of genuinely enjoying a set text) so looking forward to this!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 January 2019 - 09:48 AM

[Zetubal]

amphibian, on 29 January 2019 - 03:04 AM, said:

Foundryside is very, very good. The action scenes are superb and the characters vicious in a "still nicer than Monza Murcatto" way. I think my only criticism is that when two characters meet early on, the dialogue is a bit clunky in a "I was writing this for a movie adaptation" way. Everything else was wonderful and very moving.

How does it compare to the Divine Cities trilogy in terms of quality? Did you like this one better?

[amphibian]

I thought Foundryside relies much less on a particular character being interested in the exact area of history and science for ten plus years prior to the main story as the main story eventually covers.

The interests of the characters isn't just to serve the plot. They actually have drives that take them orthogonal to the accomplishment of the ideal objectives all the time.

And the action scenes are better than even Sigrud's stuff from Divine Cities.

[Zetubal]

Wow, that's some praise. Maybe I'll have to bump that up on my 'to read' list after I finish the Black Company series.

[Andorion]

So I recently finished Arthur C Clarke's Childhood's End and it totally blew me away.

This is going to sound weird, but this book is simultaneously one of the best and one of the coldest and most heartbreaking SF I have read.

Initially it had some thematic similarity to SEs Rejoice and I would not be surprised if he was influenced by this book, but in the second half... things got really heavy. I have seldom read an ending like that, and reading this book while remembering that it was originally written in the 50s has vastly increased my respect for Clarke.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Stephen Fry's Heroes arrived. The dedication really made me smile:

"To all the heroes we have never heard of. Perhaps you are one."