Malazan Empire: 2020 Malazan Re-read: Deadhouse Gates - Malazan Empire

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2020 Malazan Re-read: Deadhouse Gates Starts february 1st

#101 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 07:29 PM

Aw man Apt I am so with you.


Absolutely despise the nobles, compounded by the knowledge that this is real behaviour by rich fuckers
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#102 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 04:23 AM

View PostAptorian, on 23 February 2020 - 12:48 PM, said:

P. 744-745
....
Is this the first appearance of Grub?


Yes. Keneb gets the gender wrong.
...unless he lost that kid and picked up another shortly after.
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#103 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 10:10 AM

Finished the story. After a break it wasn't so hard getting through the ending but maaan do I hate these fictional characters for their fictional crimes and failures. Ugh!

Great book. I found Felisin less tiresome this time around, I think age makes me more sympathetic to her bitterness and hurt.

One thing I didn't remember was, how thin Kalam and Fiddler's plotline is. The Empress seems to have tried to kill us. Let's go kill her the two of us.

And then, to hide their tracks or distract the empire, Kalam initiates a holy war that probably kills a million people. Whyyy??? Wasn't he trying to save the empire from an evil ruler? First of all this should have been a schism between Fiddler and Kalam that should have made them enemies and severed his link to the empire. Second of all, if we assume Kalam seriously is about saving the empire, how the hell is that poor defense Laseen presents at the end enough to stop Kalam? And why does she let him go when he just did irreparable harm to her empire? Sure the rebellion was bound to happen but come on!

The logic is cheesecloth thin.
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#104 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:38 PM

View PostAptorian, on 24 February 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

And then, to hide their tracks or distract the empire, Kalam initiates a holy war that probably kills a million people. Whyyy??? Wasn't he trying to save the empire from an evil ruler? First of all this should have been a schism between Fiddler and Kalam that should have made them enemies and severed his link to the empire. Second of all, if we assume Kalam seriously is about saving the empire, how the hell is that poor defense Laseen presents at the end enough to stop Kalam? And why does she let him go when he just did irreparable harm to her empire? Sure the rebellion was bound to happen but come on!

The logic is cheesecloth thin.


It really is. IIRC at the time there was some speculation that Kalam still held a lot of loyalty/sympathy to the squashed pre-Malazan Seven Cities rule, or that there was a secret other objective at work, but none of that came up in later books. Kalam is never shown later to care much about the Falah'ds or about all the people that died because of the Whirlwind Rebellion, and it's not like he's heartless. And the confrontation with Laseen never seems to have any later impact, except for the similarity with the end of Bonehunters.

Granted, the Whirlwind Rebellion would probably have happened without Kalam's involvement. Sha'ik elder getting killed by the Red Blades wasn't supposed to happen, and Leoman and Toblakai basically improvised a new one. If the book had never been delivered, presumably the various head honchos of the Whirlwind would have likewise improvised their way out of that and any other conundrum. But Kalam still ought to feel some remorse from being part of it.

For that matter, the Path of Hands storyline is rather inconsequential, too. And why couldn't Crokus/Apsalar/Fiddler have just taken another boat to Quon Tali and Itko Kan...?

Definitely feels like some of this might come from DG being the second novel. Maybe Kalam was supposed to be more amoral and partially loyal to 7C rebels in a previous draft.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#105 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:59 PM

Here's the thing... per upthread, Kalam didn't put 7C on the cusp of rebellion before he even got there. Kalam didn't stick Rel and others in a position to completely subvert and corrupt Aren and most of the Malazan CoC. Kalam didn't reassemble the Whirlwind army. Kalam didn't even go looking for the Book, it just fell into his hands and he took it because it guaranteed passage without challenge from most of the rebels.

Yes, Kalam has a mad on for Laseen. Yes, he's gunning for her. Yes, he takes utter advantage of the situation in 7C to come at Laseen from a unexpected angle.

But it seems to me that everything that happens on 7C would have happened without Kalam. The one question is whether Dryjha would have fully manifest in Felisin, but honestly, how much difference did that make? The Whirlwind Wall was amazingly ineffective, the factions in the Whirlwind Army were never united, and Tavore walked right in, more or less.

So to my thinkymeatz, the plot that revolves around Kalam and the rebellion is not problematic, it actually makes sense once you put aside the idea that Kalam is responsible for everything. He isn't... not even close.


Now, the idea that Fiddler packed up Apsalar and Cutter to support Kalam so he could get all the way to Malaz Island, confront Laseen and get closure on his issues with her is harder to reconcile. My entirely speculative take was that WJ and Dujek figured Kalam had to sort his own shit out, and he would either make peace with Laseen or kill her and either way was fine by them. They sent Fiddler along to try to keep him alive and Apsalar to get Shadowthrone and Cotillion's tool away from them because Rake and Brood would have had.... concerns.

Let's not overlook that Laseen clearly knew Kalam was coming, put Pearl in place to slow him down, and used Kalam to purge the Claw rather severely. And then not even be in the building when he finally got to her. She knew he was coming. She planned for it, hell she even used it to her advantage (even if the purge backfired spectacularly and let Rel's Black Hand develop). It's never been suggested that WJ or Dujek or anyone else warned Laseen, yet she was clearly warned and ready.

How much of this is rationalizing and how much reasonably flows from the book(s) is tricky. Pon the reread so far i'm fairly comfortable with the first point re Kalam, 7C, and the rebellion.
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#106 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 08:50 PM

None of that mission seems like it's intended to be actually realised from the outset. Their plan is primarily how to get there, and not how to kill her when they do. And they take two stupidly different routes to get there.
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#107 User is offline   Zerv 

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 11:59 AM

What do you guys make of the Vathar butterflies seemingly claiming Sormo's soul? Could be part of Hood's payback for the warlocks' messing around with the spirits (as quoted up-thread, along with the mention that they will pay for it), though extending Hood's association with flies and capemoths to butterflies seems like a bit of a stretch.
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#108 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 12:41 PM

I was wondering about it as well. More peculiar, at one point I believe Duiker remarks that there are something like eleven warlock souls inside Sormo. Was he a kind of Wickan Quick Ben?
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#109 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 03:17 PM

View PostAptorian, on 29 February 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

I was wondering about it as well. More peculiar, at one point I believe Duiker remarks that there are something like eleven warlock souls inside Sormo. Was he a kind of Wickan Quick Ben?


Wick Ben?
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#110 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 03:55 AM

View PostTraveller, on 19 February 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

'Those souls must have remained, held by the spirit, never released to Hood. We’ll pay for this, Corporal. Every one of us.’

Interesting couple of lines in there.

The latest interview with SE is well worth a listen. If you haven't heard it, he discusses the religious aspect to Coltaines journey, and how practical but hidden solutions (like the sappers paving the river) get turned into myths or miracles (walking on water) and how all the elements of the Chain of Dogs and how the story is told after becomes the beginning of a religion. Duiker presumably records it, there are witnesses on the walls of Aren that aren't among the number that march out and die. The myths and story of Coltaines fall and rebirth are going to be further explored in a later book apparently, with the CoDs the start of a Crow cult/religion.

I guess at the point Coltaine smashed Geslers nose and breaks his hand, and shows he's on the way to ascension, shows how he's already gained enough worshippers to start that process.

Just worth noting, as some details on the journey gain significance when seen in retrospect, in the way events can be interpreted as impossible feats or miracles.


Where can I find this interview, and all the others?
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#111 User is offline   Zerv 

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 09:35 AM

View PostKeysi, on 01 March 2020 - 03:55 AM, said:

View PostTraveller, on 19 February 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

'Those souls must have remained, held by the spirit, never released to Hood. We'll pay for this, Corporal. Every one of us.'

Interesting couple of lines in there.

The latest interview with SE is well worth a listen. If you haven't heard it, he discusses the religious aspect to Coltaines journey, and how practical but hidden solutions (like the sappers paving the river) get turned into myths or miracles (walking on water) and how all the elements of the Chain of Dogs and how the story is told after becomes the beginning of a religion. Duiker presumably records it, there are witnesses on the walls of Aren that aren't among the number that march out and die. The myths and story of Coltaines fall and rebirth are going to be further explored in a later book apparently, with the CoDs the start of a Crow cult/religion.

I guess at the point Coltaine smashed Geslers nose and breaks his hand, and shows he's on the way to ascension, shows how he's already gained enough worshippers to start that process.

Just worth noting, as some details on the journey gain significance when seen in retrospect, in the way events can be interpreted as impossible feats or miracles.


Where can I find this interview, and all the others?


Here (or just search for Ten Very Big Books wherever you listen to podcasts).
And here's the one for GotM.
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#112 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 05:14 PM

Thank you kindly.
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#113 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 11:01 PM

I never saw it coming at the time, but in the reread it's pretty obvious Perl is that Salk Elan.
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#114 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 12:56 AM

I've read several comments online claiming that DG marked the point where they got hooked on the Malazan series after struggling with GotM, but the opposite happened to me.

I loved GotM and eagerly started reading DG only to feel massively let down, and personally I consider it the weakest entry in the Malazan series.

Fiddler and Kalam's journey alongside Crokus and Apsalar, and later on Icarium and Mappo, was such a boring read, and it's only made amusing by their interactions with Iskaral Pust.

I frankly didn't care at all about the Chain of Dogs, although that particular storyline did make me hate Mallick Rel with a passion, as well as Pormqual, whom I suspect had no real military training and only made it all the way to High Fist thanks to his nobility connections, and BTW the Malazan soldiers at his command are a bunch of idiots for obeying this incompetent fop.

Now comes the part that truly infuriated me, Felisin's story in the Otataral Mines. That is hands down one of the most unpleasant things I've ever read. It's as if Cher Horowitz was suddenly thrown into a hard labour camp. I've noticed many have expressed their contempt for Felisin but I on the other hand feel very sorry for her because, although nowhere near to the same extent, I have experienced that loss of privilege, and trust me it takes a toll on your emotional well-being. Tavore entrusted Baudin to protect Felisin but he doesn't even seem to be the slightest bit concerned with doing such, and even takes advantage of her to further demean her and, in his own words, confirm that she's nothing but a whore. Seriously Tavore? This is the best you could come up with? If so then Ganoes is right in MoI, where he thinks to himself that it would have been far more merciful to just execute her and spare her the nasty ordeal. I am also infuriated by Heboric's attitude towards Felisin, looking down on her even though her actions are sparing him from the worst of the Otataral Mines. Felisin has been thrown into a desperate situation and has no other currency to barter with other than her body. I sincerely don't get why everyone seems to hate Felisin.

I've tried rereading DG a few times but it's just so boring, in fact I nearly quit the series after reading it.

On a final note, one thing that bothers me is that after this book Shadowthrone and Cotillion abandon their quest for vengeance against Laseen, and in later books claim they were actually helping her out, but GotM established they are dead set on killing Laseen. Huh? What's up with such a drastic 180?
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#115 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 29 December 2021 - 10:02 PM

I'm afraid I'm late to this thread, since there's been no reply.
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#116 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 02:52 AM

So, no comment on my opinion on this book?
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#117 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 04:31 AM

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#118 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 08:13 AM

@CMR
I'm afraid some of the inconsistencies between GotM and the rest of the series have ended up being sort of handwaved as "GotMisms".
I agree about Felisin though. Pretty shit thing for a kid to deal with, the character doesn't deserve a lot of the disdain she gets at times, both in the books and from readers. To me it's an example of a tragic arc and that's pretty much it unfortunately.
Other than that, DG and MOI are actually my favourites of the series. Tragedy done well I guess. Enough to give you the feels anyway. Go figure.
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#119 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 02:36 PM

Felisin is tragic but I hardly blame Heboric and Baudins treatment of her. We see passages of the story, you try living with a drugged up sugar baby in a desert hell hole and see how much sympathy you're left with after a few months.

Also it's clear that a lot of things went wrong. Felisin was meant to be kept secure by the guards and shipped out when the time was right, but then the Whirlwind happened. Blame Kalam.
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#120 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 06:13 PM

As posted earlier, I find myself agreeing with what Ganoes said in MoI, that it would have been far more merciful for Tavore to just execute Felisin and spare her the nasty ordeal.
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