[nacht]

worry, on 20 May 2019 - 04:14 AM, said:

Plot-wise: that felt the most like CliffsNotes of any episode of the entire series, including the past couple seasons. I liked some of it for sure, and quite a few character arcs landed where they should have (or at least in places that made sense), but it did feel truncated (also I'm betting the fades to black were in homage to ROTK). All in all, it was a surprisingly conventional series finale. It felt very much like television -- good bad and ugly. Also, Drogon is way better at symbolism than I expected.

Theme-wise: Watch out, cuz if you start punching Nazis -- I mean killing slavers -- you automatically turn as bad as them. Like, where does the violence end?!?! I've found the best answers are usually right there in the middle. Cuz you know, the sign of a good compromise is that at the end, neither side is totally happy lol! Btw, who's up for some Manifest Destiny? If GRRM ends his series with that cesspool of life lessons I'm gonna puke.

Manifest destiny is not an uncommon rationalization in history (unfortunately).
Dany was clearly taking the path of Alexander

[worry]

And Alexander also had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day. That makes sense, thank you.

[D'rek]

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

WTF was with Jon leading the wildlings... among the trees? Where were all those trees in previous seasons? Why was Tormund there?

Tormund left Winterfell in episode 4 and said he was heading back up to "the real North". Looks like he used Castle Black as a location to rally the surviving free folk he could find (who would have understandably been quite scattered after the army of the dead passed through/near), and once he has them gathered at Castle Black he's now leading them back north beyond the wall. I guess Jon is going with him, at least for a little bit (never hurts to keep up good relations between the free folk and the Black Watch).

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

How many hundred million more dollars would it have cost for a little more petting for Ghost? Really not satisfactory.

After all that "pet the dog" memes they actually go and do it and you're still not satisfied?

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

The North is suddenly okay with having a queen, when there's a male Stark heir? But they wouldn't be okay with him also being king of the rest of Westeros? (The direwolf throne was cool, though.)

The North wants independence so bad, it's understandable they wouldn't be satisfied being in a personal union under Bran with the other 6 kingdoms. It would be the same as before in all but name. So no Bran, and Jon is not a valid King in the North anymore either, so nope, no valid Stark heir. And they like Sansa. If she gives them independence, they'll accept her as Queen. Doesn't mean they won't revert straight back to male primogeniture with Sansa's kids.

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

He says 'you will always be my Queen' after he's already put the knife in her? There was no use in lying at that point, and lying is the one thing he could supposedly never bring himself to do. Nonsensical.

I don't think he was lying. I think he meant it. Even if Jon hadn't been imprisoned, he would probably have refused to ever become king after that.

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

And Drogon... WTF? Why does he give a shit about the throne, but not about the guy who obviously just stabbed his mom?

The guy who stabbed his mom was also a Targaryen, though, so maybe Drogon sees them somewhat equally. Maybe Drogon doesn't actually care. Who knows, he's an unfathomable dragon. I liked it.

[worry]

I agree petting the dog was good. It's Nymeria who will never be pet again =/.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

WTF was with Jon leading the wildlings... among the trees? Where were all those trees in previous seasons? Why was Tormund there?

Tormund left Winterfell in episode 4 and said he was heading back up to "the real North". Looks like he used Castle Black as a location to rally the surviving free folk he could find (who would have understandably been quite scattered after the army of the dead passed through/near), and once he has them gathered at Castle Black he's now leading them back north beyond the wall. I guess Jon is going with him, at least for a little bit (never hurts to keep up good relations between the free folk and the Black Watch).

It was fan service. Familiar face.

D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

After all that "pet the dog" memes they actually go and do it and you're still not satisfied?

That was barely a single pat!

D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

The North is suddenly okay with having a queen, when there's a male Stark heir? But they wouldn't be okay with him also being king of the rest of Westeros? (The direwolf throne was cool, though.)

The North wants independence so bad, it's understandable they wouldn't be satisfied being in a personal union under Bran with the other 6 kingdoms. It would be the same as before in all but name. So no Bran, and Jon is not a valid King in the North anymore either, so nope, no valid Stark heir. And they like Sansa. If she gives them independence, they'll accept her as Queen. Doesn't mean they won't revert straight back to male primogeniture with Sansa's kids.

They barely established any of this---even the North's desire for independence was mainly about Cersei and her brood being particularly terrible. The drama was that the North liked Jon but not Sansa, now suddenly they like Sansa? Seems like more 'fan service'....

D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 May 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

He says 'you will always be my Queen' after he's already put the knife in her? There was no use in lying at that point, and lying is the one thing he could supposedly never bring himself to do. Nonsensical.

I don't think he was lying. I think he meant it. Even if Jon hadn't been imprisoned, he would probably have refused to ever become king after that.

'Emotions are nonsensical / illogical' maybe, bleh. If he really had meant it fully, he wouldn't have committed treason and killed her. She's not going to be his queen when she's dead, unless Drogon takes her North or East to someone who can bring her back as Ice and Fire queen to vanguish Jon the Dull.

'Dreck' is right though....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 20 May 2019 - 05:00 AM

[Malankazooie]

They blew the CGI budget on that Dany/Drogon mashup scene, so Ghost only gets a few pats.



Ghost's ear still looks angry. They must not know much about dog ears and how they heal. If you've grown up around animals, it's not that difficult of a thing to understand and incorporate, imo.

They're just trolling us now though, right? Making Bronn the 'Master of coin'? Well, at least the brothels will be top notch.

[Aptorian]

The death of Daenarys was underwhelming but otherwise I think they wrapped the show up perfectly.

I would gladly watch a volume 2 if they returned to westeros 10-20 years from with the characters having evolved.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Honestly? I liked it.

Sure, I'd have loved to see a twenty episode last two seasons where they had the time to put everything in place without rushing, but as we didn't get that, I actually think they did pretty well with the ending given the rush job enforced.

That shot of Dany walking out with Drogon spreading his wings behind her was gorgeous, and I thought the score was beautiful throughout (particularly in Dany's death scene.) And despite the leaks turning out to be largely accurate, I feel like the show delivered it much better than reading it on paper would have suggested. Overall, happy

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 20 May 2019 - 08:26 AM

[Traveller]

I thought it was great. Didn't see how they could wrap it up without really ruining it, but since it's a different animal to the books anyway I didn't care about the detail.

Some great scenes, one after another.. and cinematography wins again, Danys wings were awesome, as was her slow undramatic but inevitable death.

Brienne writing Jaime's entry - favourite moment I think, as I remember that scene from the book where he's reading it and writes his own short addition after he returned with one hand. Glad they returned to that.

Also, just the whole Stark ending. Bit silly making all previous characters members of the small council, but hey.

Just glad they didn't end it with someone opening blue eyes, or drogon roaring or something, like a lame movie ending.

[QuickTidal]

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 May 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Sansa

In the books, a 'Great Council is a council that is formed when the inheritance of the throne is unclear.' The lords vote... would they vote for a woman?

Rumour over at Freefolk on Reddit is that this Council is exactly what occurs (post-Dany), and they choose:

Spoiler

Bran. Not joking. That's the strongest rumour I've heard.

And

Spoiler

That Jon goes north, takes the Black for having killed Dany, and stands as the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch....though who they are "watching" against now that the NK and WW are all dead is beyond me...but that's the rumour.

I gotta say, I would not be surprised if Jon didn't sit the Throne when all is said and done, but I'm not sure how to take the above rumour because I'm unsure how it would make any sense narratively...but maybe that's the point? I dunno.

Huh, all of the above was bang on right...lol. Crazy

[paran falcon]

Does anyone else find the action/inaction of the Unsullied in regards to Jon not really making sense? Grey Worm and by extension, his men, makes it very clear he respects no one's authority by Dany's. So Jon kills her and what, turns himself in? Waits there with her body until he is found? It stands to reason Grey Worm would possibly the first or among the first to discover what Jon had done and I have a hard time believing he would simply imprison him rather than kill him outright for what he had done. What would have prevented GW from doing so? Especially the way they've written GW since Missandei's death. And wouldn't that confrontation have been intense and riveting enough to show us?? I'm sure time constraints would be the excuse. But instead, they gloss over all of that and Jon is just imprisoned.


I had issues with a lot of things but this one especially just didn't seem to fit.

In the end, I hold GRRM as responsible as anyone for the downward spiral of the show because HE CAN'T OR WON'T FINISH THE BOOKS. He apparently can write plenty of things, even in this world, but he can't finish the main story that started it all. Does anyone think the show ending is a match for what he intends for the books? Assuming he is even clear about how the books are to end?

[polishgenius]

Yeah I thought that was absolutely dreadful. Bran as King makes no sense in any way whatsoever - personally, he's not shown any signs of being a suitable candidate, practically there's no reason for the Lords of Westeros to accept him, and narratively it just came out of absolutely nowhere.

Jon not being able to decide that Dany needs to go until Tyrion gave him a Stern Look and then conning her into kissing him so he could stab her was both stupid and all sorts of problematic.

Drogon then burning him would have worked but no, the dragon has fucking political opinions now and burns the Iron Throne.

Arya sailing off to discover America could have been interesting if there'd been any indication that anyone, let alone her, wanted to do that. But since it was another thing that came out of absolutely nowhere...


As mentioned above, why is there still a Night Watch, and what does it matter what the Unsullied think since they leave immediately? I suppose you could argue that it's in character for him to go back and stay but again, rushed and not set up.

Only scene I liked was the Small Council.

[Gem Windcaster]

I had no issues with the ending story wise - only that the payoff was so 'meh'. I'm sad they didn't do more with the character of Aegon Targaryen - they literally put him back where he started, albeit a little more at peace.
I also felt like the Bran choice came out of left field - if they had some sort of deeper set up then maybe it would have made sense more. I watch stories like this to escape, and the 'lesson' at the end was boring and uninspired. But sure, they could have made weirder or worse choices.

But yeah 'meh' pretty much sums up my feelings about it.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 20 May 2019 - 02:34 PM

[polishgenius]

Oh shit Gem came back!


I'm still sporting that LHTEC banner in my profile.

[Gem Windcaster]

polishgenius, on 20 May 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

Oh shit Gem came back!


I'm still sporting that LHTEC banner in my profile.

I assume you don't go into the Inn much, then? Yes, I see it. Very nice. *pats head*

[polishgenius]

Gem Windcaster, on 20 May 2019 - 02:55 PM, said:

I assume you don't go into the Inn much, then?

Not very much no. Didn't know they serve coffee there.

Quote

Yes, I see it. Very nice. *pats head*

Pfffffffffft.

[Primateus]

Maybe the Arya thing is more a thing where she just wants to get away from it all?

[amphibian]

The Unsullied actions make no sense as shown. Grey Worm is the War Master and the queen is now dead. He is essentially the person to either rule or pick who rules in Westeros. Instead he imprisons people, does nothing, meekly lets the lords pick a king, and then gets all the brown people away from the white people.

The lords picking the king should have been extremely upset that a Stark becomes king and a Stark independent kingdom gets set up while the others that have wanted to be independent (Iron Islands, Dorne) don't get even a mention or a discussion.

Tyrion arranging chairs is twee, but appointing Bronn, an illiterate mercenary, as Master of Coin is idiotic. Bran abandoning his council meeting to go look for a dragon is bad. If the show runners want to imply that Bran is warging into Drogon, then that's a weird way to do things.

The finale has moments that feel nice for the individual characters, but in the context of the entire show and previously stated motivations, they don't make one bit of goddamn sense.

Arya trains for a year to get faceless powers and never ever uses them. She goes off on a boat to to explore too - which is not built up to.

Brienne writing with a quill in a book and then shutting the book with the fresh ink on the page is the epitome of this stupid emotional moment thing. That ain't gonna be readable, yo.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 20 May 2019 - 03:23 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 20 May 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

Sure, I'd have loved to see a twenty episode last two seasons where they had the time to put everything in place without rushing, but as we didn't get that, I actually think they did pretty well with the ending given the rush job enforced.

The rush job wasn't 'enforced' on them---they chose it. HBO offered to renew them for up to (at least) 10 seasons, a full season 8, etc. They apparently wanted to do movies instead.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 20 May 2019 - 03:44 PM

[amphibian]

Yes, that's the thing that drives me nuts about this - the rush and the compression of everything into 13 episodes over two seasons was entirely the decision of Benioff and Weiss. HBO tried to throw lots of money at them to keep going, but they turned it down to go do other projects.

And people think HBO is the cause of the rush.