[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 07 May 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

QT the bad treatment of Jewish people isn't, as a general rule, systemic though. By and large the inequality of black people in the South seems like it might still be that.

Put it this way. If a dude in Germany started trying to gather support for the reinstitution of Jewish Ghettos or something they would very quickly be shut down, aside from some support from a minority of right wing nutjobs (though the rise of AFD does concern me a bit).

If a politician in the South started waving the Confederate flag, proclaiming he was a true patriot and started talking about reintroducing Jim Crow style laws or segregation, you know he'd get a lot of vocal support, some of it from the White House and president...

Maybe a mod should move this part of the thread to the DB? It's kind of taken over.

Yeah, okay that makes sense. I'm not sure I agree with this being off-limits to fiction, but I see the distinction.

...and yes, sorry for derailing the thread all. Back to your regular scheduled GoT tactics discussions.

[Malankazooie]

So veering back to GoT discussion (maybe a mod can move the other recent posts to its own thread?).

So Bran, when having a discussion with Tyrion, says something about his wheelchair is the same as the one Daemon Targaryen built for his crippled nephew 120 years ago and that he liked that one.

So, is there anything significant to this exchange? Like maybe it's suggesting something about Tyrion's actual heritage? Or is it just driving home that Bran is full blown Tjhree-Eye'd Raven now?

[worry]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 May 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 06 May 2019 - 06:36 PM, said:

worry, on 06 May 2019 - 05:54 PM, said:

The big flaws in this episode for me were Sansa attributing her growth to her abusers

I can see what you're saying here, but honestly...this is very much "I went through all this shit so I could become the best at seeing it, and routing it out in future and leading on my own". Her growth can still be her own...while acknowledging that without having gone through all that abusive crap, she might still be the "little bird", the vapid princess from Winterfell who cared only about princes, and dresses, ect. I don't think that's attributing her growth to her abusers, but instead is illustrating how going through shit often makes you ten times stronger.

Wading in on this.... firstly I thought she said she "might" have been a little bird all her life, not that she would have been (which is what I keep seeing quoted) - it's small, but it does alter the flavour of the line a little. That could well be me mishearing the line though.

Recognising, owning and celebrating the strength overcoming adversity requires in yourself is a pretty standard response and an oft-quoted coping mechanism for people who experience all sorts of things. I think it's more a problem of the writers lacking subtlety - the line is framed like she's stating a truth rather than acknowledging that those experiences have partly led her to where she is. Also, they didn't make her strong - she always was that, the proof being she survived at all - but they made her cynical and world weary and so made her drop the "princes and fairytales" that first series Sansa worshiped and lived for.

Everyone will interpret it their own way but for me the immediate outcry of "she's crediting abuse as character growth" was a bit wide of the mark and I think it's more poor heavy-handed writing than it is a statement "abuse/abusers create growth/strength".

I see your point, but she does say "Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest...I would have stayed a Little Bird all my life." No "might" I'm afraid. And just to be crystal clear, my critique is exactly about the writing. Like, it's clear what the thrust of the scene is meant to convey up to that point and mostly does, but it's also clear that B&W can be thoughtless, lazy writers. They have one chance for this scene, after all, and the line they choose to give Sansa to punctuate the entire scene -- and given the structure of the scene, what becomes its thesis statement -- is botched. Because: they're not interested in conveying anything else -- the trope is what they meant after all, at least in part; and/or they're not interested in the input of people who would have caught that, which by S8 is crazy given their past mistakes. If I were to give B&W the benefit of the doubt, I would grant that this is one more victim of their obsession with secrecy, which one can imagine is why first draft scripts keep making it to screen...but that's not remotely a good enough excuse at this point, and I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.


@QT: I haven't played that game [ya got me! ], but I understand the premise. And while maybe the Little Bird scene has a little more wiggle room for interpretation, I don't really see how this one does. The game on screen follows the real-world premise, and everyone is clearly having fun with it, until Tyrion Lannister is written to: deliberately puncture that fun mood in order to: deliberately hurt Brienne's feelings in order to: prime her to be vulnerable and alone in her bedroom with Jaime Lannister. It's cruel and bro-y and unlike Tyrion, on top of being completely unnecessary (she could have excused herself when Tormund appears, with the same subsequent events happening). If I wanted to be super cynical about this scene, I could point out that Tyrion and Jaime are old hands at this game and Tyrion at least is a heavy drinker, while Brienne is a noob, who is naiver than most, doesn't often drink, and has walls of propriety they don't have -- and as a result, the game is lopsided and they are pretty much getting her drunk before Jaime makes his move. Like, this entire scene could have been written by a Pick Up Artist and wouldn't need to change a thing. But I don't want to be that cynical, because I do think Brienne and Jaime were heading there anyway, and both wanted to, etc.

[worry]

Malankazooie, on 07 May 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

So, is there anything significant to this exchange? Like maybe it's suggesting something about Tyrion's actual heritage? Or is it just driving home that Bran is full blown Tjhree-Eye'd Raven now?

I think this was about the bittersweet end of Bran Stark. I guess we'll see if there's more for him, but the show has avoided all the Bloodraven stuff from the books right? So I think B&W just made the executive decision to shave all those twists out and leave them for the books, leaving Bran a shell of himself on the show.

This post has been edited by worry: 07 May 2019 - 07:53 PM

[worry]

I agree that Sansa is a beast, which is why punctuating a good scene about that with a bad line that undercuts it bothered me. To each their own!


Re: the other thing...
https://youtu.be/h1xCqptlNcM?t=388

[Tiste Simeon]

Bran is beginning to remind me of The Blue Rajah in the movie Mystery Men. No one knows what he does but he's terribly mysterious...

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 07 May 2019 - 07:44 PM, said:

I see your point, but she does say "Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest...I would have stayed a Little Bird all my life." No "might" I'm afraid.

Fair enough!

Quote

And just to be crystal clear, my critique is exactly about the writing. Like, it's clear what the thrust of the scene is meant to convey up to that point and mostly does, but it's also clear that B&W can be thoughtless, lazy writers. They have one chance for this scene, after all, and the line they choose to give Sansa to punctuate the entire scene -- and given the structure of the scene, what becomes its thesis statement -- is botched. Because: they're not interested in conveying anything else -- the trope is what they meant after all, at least in part; and/or they're not interested in the input of people who would have caught that, which by S8 is crazy given their past mistakes. If I were to give B&W the benefit of the doubt, I would grant that this is one more victim of their obsession with secrecy, which one can imagine is why first draft scripts keep making it to screen...but that's not remotely a good enough excuse at this point, and I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.

Yeah that's all fair really. We shouldn't *have* to infer what they should have meant, because they should have put it on script clearly in the scene.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 08 May 2019 - 05:39 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Sorry to double post, but I've just come across this (it's a piece of crap newspaper here in the UK, granted, but it's not their interview)

George R R Martin on show ending

...... the comments about studio intervention to do with characters' popularity ratings just put me in mind of the same thing (intervention of studio higher ups) being said to bring about the eventual awful fate of the Hobbit films.

[Traveller]

I don't think anyone is going to be entirely happy about how it ends. All the aspects that came across from the books, the aspects that made it so compelling even with a much lower budget, are now noticeably, glaringly absent from the TV show.

Personally I just miss all the wrangling, conniving and backstabbing between the families in their attempts to be top of the pile. Walkers and dragons were the sidenote; now they're the main focus.

Killing Littlefinger for a dramatic episode finale was the end really.

[Gorefest]

Traveller, on 08 May 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

Personally I just miss all the wrangling, conniving and backstabbing between the families in their attempts to be top of the pile. Walkers and dragons were the sidenote; now they're the main focus.

Wut? Have we been reading the same books and watching the same series? If anything got sidelined in the TV show it is the whole magic aspect with the Walkers and the dragons, in favour of the thing that was always supposed to be the detractant: petty human squabbling in the face of apocalyptic disaster. That is one of the key messages of the books. Even when faced with huge world-shattering issues (e.g. global warming) we tend to just ignore or disregard it in pursuit of power and riches. The TV show has managed to make some of the key aspects of the books a side story.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 08 May 2019 - 01:35 PM

[amphibian]

Points to Gorefest's post and agrees.

I also agree with Worry about how the tone of the drinking game and the Hound/Sansa talk were off.

Tyrion moved from a "haha, you're a virgin" line of thought to going after a perceived insecurity of Brienne in like no time. Brienne reacted to that the only way she should have - by leaving. But I think the intent of the scene is supposed to be light hearted, rather than the very mean execution of the dialogue. It comes off as a screw up that screws up in a way that's not ok for women.

[Abyss]

The Sansa Hound chat is getting a lot of flak. I don't see why... he was utterly devoted to her, in his own weird way, back when she was Joffrey's whipping toy at King's Landing, and even offered to get her away. She was scared of him then, and now not scared of him any longer. I thought it was an interesting exchange for those two characters.

The drinking game.. Tyrion was being his usual drunk arse and used to treating Brienne like one of the boys.

In contrast Tyrion's appeal to Cersei was just silly. I did like his earlier exchange w Qyburn tho, and every chat w Varys.

Honestly tho, the entire Jon/Dany/love/incest/loyalty/throne/waaaaah thing is just irritating me already.

[Tattersail_]

Abyss, on 08 May 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:

The Sansa Hound chat is getting a lot of flak. I don't see why... he was utterly devoted to her, in his own weird way, back when she was Joffrey's whipping toy at King's Landing, and even offered to get her away. She was scared of him then, and now not scared of him any longer. I thought it was an interesting exchange for those two characters.

The drinking game.. Tyrion was being his usual drunk arse and used to treating Brienne like one of the boys.

In contrast Tyrion's appeal to Cersei was just silly. I did like his earlier exchange w Qyburn tho, and every chat w Varys.

Honestly tho, the entire Jon/Dany/love/incest/loyalty/throne/waaaaah thing is just irritating me already.

It cannot irritate you for much longer as there are only two episode left

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 08 May 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

Tyrion moved from a "haha, you're a virgin" line of thought to going after a perceived insecurity of Brienne in like no time. Brienne reacted to that the only way she should have - by leaving. But I think the intent of the scene is supposed to be light hearted, rather than the very mean execution of the dialogue. It comes off as a screw up that screws up in a way that's not ok for women.

More like she should have reacted by saying "well duh, I'm a noblewoman and not married, that's not only normal in this society, the opposite would be a scandal?"

[worry]

Lol yah that too.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

D, on 08 May 2019 - 05:21 PM, said:

amphibian, on 08 May 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

Tyrion moved from a "haha, you're a virgin" line of thought to going after a perceived insecurity of Brienne in like no time. Brienne reacted to that the only way she should have - by leaving. But I think the intent of the scene is supposed to be light hearted, rather than the very mean execution of the dialogue. It comes off as a screw up that screws up in a way that's not ok for women.

More like she should have reacted by saying "well duh, I'm a noblewoman and not married, that's not only normal in this society, the opposite would be a scandal?"

At first I thought he was asking if she had ever been raped. And that her reaction was implying a yes....

But no, just stupid show writers expecting blissfully ignorant (and thoughtless) viewers....

[Traveller]

Gorefest, on 08 May 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

Traveller, on 08 May 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

Personally I just miss all the wrangling, conniving and backstabbing between the families in their attempts to be top of the pile. Walkers and dragons were the sidenote; now they're the main focus.

Wut? Have we been reading the same books and watching the same series? If anything got sidelined in the TV show it is the whole magic aspect with the Walkers and the dragons, in favour of the thing that was always supposed to be the detractant: petty human squabbling in the face of apocalyptic disaster. That is one of the key messages of the books. Even when faced with huge world-shattering issues (e.g. global warming) we tend to just ignore or disregard it in pursuit of power and riches. The TV show has managed to make some of the key aspects of the books a side story.

That is definitely the overall message in the books, but in regards to screen time over the last two seasons, we have had dragons growing, dragons flying, dragons burning ships and people and armies and walls... and then we've had the Walkers, wights, Hardhome, dragon killing, Wall smashing... you can hardly say they've been sidelined? They're the main 'spectacle.' Whereas the complex web-spinning from the books, the likes of Littlefinger, Lady Olenna, Roose Bolton... their storylines and lives were ended abruptly on screen as soon as the book material ran out.

Yes, they've now finally ditched the NK and the Long Night in favour of wrapping up the story arcs of the popular characters; but the dragons and armies and set-piece spectacle have taken centre stage over the depth and complexity of the human interactions, which I don't think was the direction the books were heading imo.

Which is why GRRM is probably saddened by the direction - he's seen the intricate lines he set up (but couldn't find a way himself to bring together) cut and discarded, simplified or just ended.

If you remember, he never even wanted the dragons in the first place, he always said someone talked him into it!

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 May 2019 - 07:26 PM

[worry]

I see what you mean. Even the supernatural stuff in the books is a reflection of human 'short-sightedness'. Wildfyre is like napalm, for instance. And while I know it happened on the show (though it's from GRRM), NK being a product of the war between Children of the Forest and humans is even in that line. A few people have mentioned climate change, but NK's/The Long Night/etc.'s metaphor was initially more broadly thought of as nuclear winter right? As is the Doom of Valyria (which is like Pompei + nuclear winter -- not literally like some post-apoc fantasy, but metaphorically)?

Anyway, the gold standard is still that conversation between Cersei and Robert in S1 that was show-only, and fantastic, and completely missing in recent seasons as it's turned to (still mostly entertaining) soap + spectacle.

[Gorefest]

The show has degraded to pure and simple casual fan pandering. Cleganebowl is a given at this stage.

[Malankazooie]

We're due an Arya 'faceless men', face wearing - peel back a face, reveal moment, right?

She totally gonna get all stabby-stabby wearing Qyburn's face then. Am I totally wack-a-doo to think this?