TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 May 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:
QuickTidal, on 06 May 2019 - 06:36 PM, said:
worry, on 06 May 2019 - 05:54 PM, said:
The big flaws in this episode for me were Sansa attributing her growth to her abusers
I can see what you're saying here, but honestly...this is very much "I went through all this shit so I could become the best at seeing it, and routing it out in future and leading on my own". Her growth can still be her own...while acknowledging that without having gone through all that abusive crap, she might still be the "little bird", the vapid princess from Winterfell who cared only about princes, and dresses, ect. I don't think that's attributing her growth to her abusers, but instead is illustrating how going through shit often makes you ten times stronger.
Wading in on this.... firstly I thought she said she "might" have been a little bird all her life, not that she would have been (which is what I keep seeing quoted) - it's small, but it does alter the flavour of the line a little. That could well be me mishearing the line though.
Recognising, owning and celebrating the strength overcoming adversity requires in yourself is a pretty standard response and an oft-quoted coping mechanism for people who experience all sorts of things. I think it's more a problem of the writers lacking subtlety - the line is framed like she's stating a truth rather than acknowledging that those experiences have partly led her to where she is. Also, they didn't make her strong - she always was that, the proof being she survived at all - but they made her cynical and world weary and so made her drop the "princes and fairytales" that first series Sansa worshiped and lived for.
Everyone will interpret it their own way but for me the immediate outcry of "she's crediting abuse as character growth" was a bit wide of the mark and I think it's more poor heavy-handed writing than it is a statement "abuse/abusers create growth/strength".
I see your point, but she does say "Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest...I would have stayed a Little Bird all my life." No "might" I'm afraid. And just to be crystal clear, my critique is exactly about the
writing. Like, it's clear what the thrust of the scene is
meant to convey up to that point and mostly does, but it's also clear that B&W can be thoughtless, lazy writers. They have one chance for this scene, after all, and the line they choose to give Sansa to punctuate the entire scene -- and given the structure of the scene, what becomes its thesis statement -- is botched. Because: they're not interested in conveying anything else -- the trope is what they meant after all, at least in part; and/or they're not interested in the input of people who would have caught that, which by S8 is crazy given their past mistakes. If I were to give B&W the benefit of the doubt, I would grant that this is one more victim of their obsession with secrecy, which one can imagine is why first draft scripts keep making it to screen...but that's not remotely a good enough excuse at this point, and I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.
@QT: I haven't played that game [ya got me!
], but I understand the premise. And while maybe the Little Bird scene has a little more wiggle room for interpretation, I don't really see how this one does. The game on screen follows the real-world premise, and everyone is clearly having fun with it, until Tyrion Lannister is written to: deliberately puncture that fun mood in order to: deliberately hurt Brienne's feelings in order to: prime her to be vulnerable and alone in her bedroom with Jaime Lannister. It's cruel and bro-y and unlike Tyrion, on top of being completely unnecessary (she could have excused herself when Tormund appears, with the same subsequent events happening). If I wanted to be super cynical about this scene, I could point out that Tyrion and Jaime are old hands at this game and Tyrion at least is a heavy drinker, while Brienne is a noob, who is naiver than most, doesn't often drink, and has walls of propriety they don't have -- and as a result, the game is lopsided and they are pretty much getting her drunk before Jaime makes his move. Like, this entire scene could have been written by a Pick Up Artist and wouldn't need to change a thing. But I don't want to be that cynical, because I do think Brienne and Jaime were heading there anyway, and both wanted to, etc.