[polishgenius]

Yeah, Sansa isn't smug, she's just perpetually irritated because her brother's such a fucking idiot. Arya's only smug when she's dealing with dickheads. Otherwise she's just confident.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 17 April 2019 - 04:59 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Maark Abbott, on 17 April 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

I mean... Snark and smug to the point of having a smug-off with the generally dreadful Dany... There are ways to portray someone in the manner that you describe rather than 1D smug (see: Yara Greyjoy in this episode).

That said, the character of Sansa has always been pretty unbearable so get them Others down and kill her off.

So in short, the fact you don't like the character means that no matter what she actually does you'll read her the way you want to - i.e. smug - regardless of whether she is or not.

[nacht]

worry, on 15 April 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

In S7, Sansa made her the delegate to the meeting in King's Landing with Cersei, Jon, Dany, etc. so she was there last we saw her. Why she's not with Pod in S8E1 is unknown.

I saw the episode again. She was standing right behind Podric. How could you miss the big lady :-)

[nacht]

polishgenius, on 17 April 2019 - 04:59 PM, said:

Yeah, Sansa isn't smug, she's just perpetually irritated because her brother's such a fucking idiot. Arya's only smug when she's dealing with dickheads. Otherwise she's just confident.

There are somethings that are off in this espisode. One of them is the writers spinning up Sansa and dumbing down Tyrion.
For example, Arya says that Sansa is the smartest person she knew. I never got that vibe from Sansa, except for the entrapment of Littlefinger, who went down quite lamely.
Sansa puts down Tyrion quite strongly and he does seem quite dumb, with both the Casterly Rock fiasco and with trusting Cersei.

And Jaime just coming by himself seems fairly stupid. He could have at least peeled off some of the Lannister army. He does have a strong case for being the Lannister head now that Tywin is gone, and he really won the Riverlands in an awesome manner.
So what is he going to do by himself among sworn enemies like Starks. (and Targaryens)

[worry]

nacht, on 17 April 2019 - 06:36 PM, said:

worry, on 15 April 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

In S7, Sansa made her the delegate to the meeting in King's Landing with Cersei, Jon, Dany, etc. so she was there last we saw her. Why she's not with Pod in S8E1 is unknown.

I saw the episode again. She was standing right behind Podric. How could you miss the big lady :-)

LOL I saw this tweet after I posted that but just didn't bother correcting...



but I'm not the one who originally asked so everybody should dogpile on Tiste!

[Tiste Simeon]

Yeah that guys the idiot!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Cyphon, on 17 April 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

Clearly Jon's targy reveal to Dany is going to be undermined by Sam being the source given what Danny did to his family, and no one quite knows what to make of Bran. More scheming and factions to come.

Pretty sure he still has the book with him---one of those he asked her pardon for stealing. And faking a passage in the same hand would presumably be difficult. Tyrion and Varys will probably vouch for him, especially since they said they want Jon and Daenerys to marry. As someone pointed out on Reddit, when Jon joined the Night's Watch, he renounced all claim to titles, making Daenerys the heir; when he died, his vow was ended, making him Daenerys's heir. But his non-bastard noble birth also makes him a suitable wedding match for Daenerys, solving the problems of the Northerners not trusting her and feeling allegiance to Jon as King of the North rather than Sansa as Lady Stark. (Not that the show is likely to make it that simple....)

But I don't remember exactly how much of the story the diary explicitly details, beyond the marriage... so they may have to rely on Bran's visions. Which, even if he can convince them of his magical ability, could be undermined by general distrust of magic / its potential sources.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Jon could attempt to test / prove his Targaryan ancestry---by mastering the riding of dragons, or (since Targs are apparently always fire-immune in the show, though not in the books) by burning. (Actually, if he can be set on fire without being injured, that could be a decent battle-plan... just douse him and Daenerys in oil, light them on fire, and catapault them at the undead hordes.)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 18 April 2019 - 01:53 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Azath Vitr (D, on 18 April 2019 - 01:53 AM, said:

Jon could attempt to test / prove his Targaryan ancestry---by mastering the riding of dragons, or (since Targs are apparently always fire-immune in the show, though not in the books) by burning. (Actually, if he can be set on fire without being injured, that could be a decent battle-plan... just douse him and Daenerys in oil, light them on fire, and catapault them at the undead hordes.)

Jon doesn't have the fire immunity - his hand was burned when he threw the lantern on the wight at the wall defending the Lord Commander.

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 April 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 17 April 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

I mean... Snark and smug to the point of having a smug-off with the generally dreadful Dany... There are ways to portray someone in the manner that you describe rather than 1D smug (see: Yara Greyjoy in this episode).

That said, the character of Sansa has always been pretty unbearable so get them Others down and kill her off.

So in short, the fact you don't like the character means that no matter what she actually does you'll read her the way you want to - i.e. smug - regardless of whether she is or not.

Not quite. She's just developed into another Cersei. So whilst I disliked the character, she had development up to a point, after which she was written into this one dimensional pigeonhole.

We can make the same inference with Dany, who until the end of S6 had very good character development and was a character whose segments I enjoyed. Now she's Blonde Cersei.

Characters developing from interesting, multi-dimensional people into one note smug is neither good character development nor good writing - both of which have been prevalent issues through the last few seasons. At least with Cersei it's been consistent throughout.

[Tattersail_]

Azath Vitr (D, on 18 April 2019 - 01:49 AM, said:

Cyphon, on 17 April 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

Clearly Jon's targy reveal to Dany is going to be undermined by Sam being the source given what Danny did to his family, and no one quite knows what to make of Bran. More scheming and factions to come.

Pretty sure he still has the book with him---one of those he asked her pardon for stealing. And faking a passage in the same hand would presumably be difficult. Tyrion and Varys will probably vouch for him, especially since they said they want Jon and Daenerys to marry. As someone pointed out on Reddit, when Jon joined the Night's Watch, he renounced all claim to titles, making Daenerys the heir; when he died, his vow was ended, making him Daenerys's heir. But his non-bastard noble birth also makes him a suitable wedding match for Daenerys, solving the problems of the Northerners not trusting her and feeling allegiance to Jon as King of the North rather than Sansa as Lady Stark. (Not that the show is likely to make it that simple....)

But I don't remember exactly how much of the story the diary explicitly details, beyond the marriage... so they may have to rely on Bran's visions. Which, even if he can convince them of his magical ability, could be undermined by general distrust of magic / its potential sources.

With what happened over in the Bay of Dragons, when she left those cities and they went back to their old ways, Dany Must realise that she cannot rule alone, she will need people in different areas to rule. Jon staying King of the North would solve these problems, but I don't think the show will go that way.I think Sansa will be Queen of the seven kingdoms.

This post has been edited by Tattersail_: 18 April 2019 - 07:25 AM

[Malankazooie]

Cersei really wanted elephants. Do you guys think the show will solve that somehow? It would be pretty cool to see elephants in one of the forthcoming battles.

Also, Dothraki wouldn't do so well in the cold north, I'm guessing.

Finally, a little Easter egg (Easter is Sunday after all ) - The scene with Bronn and the whores where one of them talks about the ginger that had is face burned off? That was Ed Sheeran, so that should put a smile on your faces. Cheers.

[Gorefest]

You know how much elephant CGI would cost? Judging by the awfully poor CGI dragon ride scene of Jon and Dany (reminiscent of Harry Potter's first broom flight in the Philosopher's Stone), I would wager that the whole budget for this season is dumped into one or two big epic battles.

[amphibian]

Maark Abbott, on 18 April 2019 - 07:19 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 April 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 17 April 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

I mean... Snark and smug to the point of having a smug-off with the generally dreadful Dany... There are ways to portray someone in the manner that you describe rather than 1D smug (see: Yara Greyjoy in this episode).

That said, the character of Sansa has always been pretty unbearable so get them Others down and kill her off.

So in short, the fact you don't like the character means that no matter what she actually does you'll read her the way you want to - i.e. smug - regardless of whether she is or not.

Not quite. She's just developed into another Cersei. So whilst I disliked the character, she had development up to a point, after which she was written into this one dimensional pigeonhole.

We can make the same inference with Dany, who until the end of S6 had very good character development and was a character whose segments I enjoyed. Now she's Blonde Cersei.

Characters developing from interesting, multi-dimensional people into one note smug is neither good character development nor good writing - both of which have been prevalent issues through the last few seasons. At least with Cersei it's been consistent throughout.

I think your character evaluation is broken. This isn't a parallel evolution of all women characters towards Cersei.

Dany made a major change by agreeing to terms with Jon and Cersei to fight the Others and zombies. Sansa has gone from the girl manipulated by everyone to maintaining relative independence and figuring out how to care for a broken land.

[Nevyn]

I don't think there is an inherent flaw in the rendering of all female characters.

I do think there is a major missed opportunity in the portrayal of Sansa.


They are trying to show her growing into a powerful, wise, and responsible person, and also trying to use her to show the tradeoffs and risks in the plan to save the north.

But in doing so they are undercutting the arc they give her, because while she is more tempered arguing with Jon in private, she is more biting and undercuts him in public. And while there are perfectly valid points to be made about feeding armies, the dubiousness of Cersei doing what she says, and the north trusting Dany, there also really aren't any alternatives to put forward, and she isn't contributing any. Giving her the role of smugly telling people what they already know..

And the type of leader that ambushed Baelish and is meant to suddenly be so cunning would not be so outward with her contempt in public.

They missed an opportunity with her to be more courtly in front of everyone, and have her disputes with Jon and Dany in private moments. Instead they give her a very one note role, which also underlines what a total idiot as a leader Snow has been for just about the whole series, because her main function is currently to question his choices.

[QuickTidal]

The informative thing here are the people on thread letting us know what they think of strong, capable, clever female characters who take no shit... are apparently being "smug".

Fucks sake.

Sansa raised vitally important questions like “How are we going to feed this massive army?” and “What happens for the rest of winter if we use up our supplies too quickly?” and “Why do you expect Cersei to actually help you fight the White Walkers?” and “Why do you expect Northern lords to follow a Targaryen, anyway?”

These are war basics that the rest of the room was apparently ignoring.

Quote

there also really aren't any alternatives to put forward

Jeezus...It's not the place of the individual asking the questions to offer up the answers to the King (Jon) and Queen (Dany) who MAKE THE DECISIONS. She's bringing them up because no one else has and they are IMPORTANT. She's calling into question the leaderships lack of awareness of base tactics/logistics in the war to come. And even THEN Jon and Dany don't answer and sort of just go for a dragon ride.

Quote

Giving her the role of smugly telling people what they already know..

Bullshit. If they already knew then they would have had answers for her. They didn't. So they didn't know. So she's being an informative part of the hierarchy of command...that's not smug, that's just being intelligent and important.

This is no different than what's been said about female characters for years by men afraid to allow women to be what men have always been. I wager if this was a dude who said and did what Sansa said and did, we would not be having this conversation about "smugness" and that's sad.

She's apparently "smug" while he's just being "matter-of-fact"...or some such nonsense.

[Tiste Simeon]

*cough*IwonderifthecharactersbecamemorepopulararoundthetimeMaarkstoppedlikingthem*cough*

[Malankazooie]

Ok guys, another thing I was pondering - how about that new opening credits sequence? Seems as if they've gone from a 20,000 ft. view to an FPS run through. Do you guys think that suggests anything about how this season will play out or has any 'hidden' clues about what will transpire? Don't get too occupied thinking about it, it's just something to chew on.

[polishgenius]

It almost certainly suggests that because they've only got six episodes to get everything done, they are going to spend almost no time anywhere other than Winterfell in the first three episodes and King's Landing and its surrounds in the second three.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 18 April 2019 - 05:55 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 18 April 2019 - 01:53 AM, said:

Jon could attempt to test / prove his Targaryan ancestry---by mastering the riding of dragons, or (since Targs are apparently always fire-immune in the show, though not in the books) by burning. (Actually, if he can be set on fire without being injured, that could be a decent battle-plan... just douse him and Daenerys in oil, light them on fire, and catapault them at the undead hordes.)

Jon doesn't have the fire immunity - his hand was burned when he threw the lantern on the wight at the wall defending the Lord Commander.

Guess it's probably just Daenerys (post-hatching) then; fire immunity could mess up a lot of Targaryen history (several having died by fire) which HBO is iirc going through for spin-off series. Not sure what to make of her comment, after her brother's death, 'He was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon.'

Heat resistance is a Targaryen trait in the books though... and one that Daenerys has in the show before the sorcery (assistant telling her 'the bath is too hot' but she's fine). 'Okay Jon, put your junk in the hot springs....' Not sure how far that resistance goes---perhaps a medieval-style public licking of white-hot iron?...

Then again, it's possible that the showrunners just dgaf about issues of consistency that probably aren't immediately obvious to the casual viewer.