[Tapper]

I'd go to 4 to offer you a break-even, but I am not going higher.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about how often we expect any AC to be played based on the size of the action deck and average card draw, how often I should plan to produce stuff this game, or how much 6 TG is worth early game compared to 4 production twice/three times over the whole game and so on.

Ultimately, we each establish a valuation.

Uprising is, to me, not worth my TA-PN or 6 TG turn 2, with the added handicap of a reduced handsize for the rest of the game as opportunity cost.

Your offer leaves me less room in the short term, (where I need to develop and expand) than you playing the card. It comes likely at a cost in the long term, but I think I can plan for that.

So play it if you need those TG and don't want to deal (if you feel that I'd gain an unfair advantage that way).

As for asking for 3: I have said in the signing up thread that I would prefer to be a good neighbour, if treated well. So let me show you my conondrum:

I can send my cruiser in Lodor to MR in a single turn. If you'd be the next player to make it to Mecatol, you'd be forced to return my SftT which I can then exchange again, say, with Nom, or D'rek.

That's not friendly, but it is profitable. What would you do in my shoes?

[Tapper]

Esssentially, my suggestion:

I pay you 4 TG for Uprising on the first turn of the one of us with the lowest initiative. After I tuck Uprising away, my ships do not go anywhere near MR when it is uncontrolled or controlled by you. Deal?

[Tattersail_]

"Here D'rek"
*passes her my special customade popcorn box
"Have some popcorn"
*D'rek pushes her hand all the way to the bottom.
"What's this squishy thing?" She says.
"My thumb" I reply
D'rek looks at me.
I look at Drek.
"Want to see a magic trick?" I say.
She slowly nods.
"Look, no hands". I smile, waving them in the air.

Students hey. Full of dirty shenanigans.

*looks down at little Johnny

"And that is how I met your mother"

[D'rek]

Sadly, I usually am that gullible...

[D'rek]

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

The Jol-Nar do not dispute the existence of this supposed Mentak "trading outpost" on Tar'mann, but we would highly encourage you to study the complete history of the planet before making such brash pronouncements. The planet - the surface of which, I will note, is 98% liquid - is populated by billions of the native aquatic semi-sentient Troutan and Haddockian species. First contact with both of these species was established in the initial Lazax survey (implemented overall by the Winnarans, but using Hylar for the actual contact due to the need for underwater contact) of the planet 1822 years ago, and the planet's native government voluntarily joined the Imperium several days later, upon which they happily joined the Hylar-lead aquatic union within the Imperium. For centuries the Troutans and Haddockii lived, traded, and prospered within the union.

Like everywhere else, contact and transit has dwindled between the planets during the Dark Years.

And yes, there was a brief time 230 years ago when a Mentak ship carrying too much raw hydrogen without any redundant safety systems partially exploded and made a crash landing onto one of Tar'mann's small islands, residing there for 55 years of sporadic cannibalism before they got their rescue beacon working, never realizing the oceans surrounding them was populated.

But Mentak "outpost" or no Mentak "outpost", the native people of Tar'mann have been partners of the Jol-Nar for millenia prior, and there are still Troutan and Haddockian populations on Jol and Nar, as well as Hylar living in the myrkseas of Tar'mann from the cross-migrations of eons past. Come visit our excellent Museum of Extrasolar History in Wun-Escha where there is an entire wing dedicated to (and very well-documenting) this exciting history.

[Gnaw]

Still waiting on Morgoth?

[D'rek]

All that being said, IH... if you give me your ceasefire I'll let you have it.

[twelve]

What started out as an attempt at quid pro quo has quickly devolved into what seems to me both of us being soured on dealing with each other as you think I'm blackmailing you and now you are threatening to force me into losing a VP. At this point me trading you that card for 4 trade goods would only be to earn good will towards you which seems to be already lost which is the opposite of what I initially set out to accomplish.

My final thoughts on the matter and I won't bring it up again.I feel incredibly insulted by the fact that you are arguing against the expected value and say the minimum it's worth is less than 4 but i need to remind myself that not everyone is as logical or numbers focused as myself. So to explain in terms that aren't based on actual math/ statistics lets just look at what has historically occurred. With 9 player games on this forum this card has been played a minimum of twice each game. And without going back and actually scrubbing the posted actions each game I'm sure at least one of those games it was played more that that. Probably both but for arguments sake lets say that it will only get played twice so at bare minimum the card is worth 8 to the holder of that planet. If you can't or won't accept my trade that is fair and understandable as it is an early cost that would be avoided if possible but DON'T tell me it's not worth what I'm asking Anything less than 8 is a cost saving 100%.And by holding that card until late game you can use it for your benefit without fear of it coming back to bite you as it could be used to possibly score some of the influence/production/TG stage II public objections that could put you over the top in points.Hell I'd even spread out the payment plan over 3 rounds if the complete upfront cost is too daunting. Or Select me for your racial ability to pay it off and then you aren't out anything. Or stick with politely declining my offer and wish each other well in their future endeavors. The choice is always yours.


I want good relations with you. i don't want this disagreement to cause undue stress on that objective.

Now is anyone going to be watching the Super Bowl?

[Imperial Historian]

D, on 03 February 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

The Jol-Nar do not dispute the existence of this supposed Mentak "trading outpost" on Tar'mann, but we would highly encourage you to study the complete history of the planet before making such brash pronouncements. The planet - the surface of which, I will note, is 98% liquid - is populated by billions of the native aquatic semi-sentient Troutan and Haddockian species. First contact with both of these species was established in the initial Lazax survey (implemented overall by the Winnarans, but using Hylar for the actual contact due to the need for underwater contact) of the planet 1822 years ago, and the planet's native government voluntarily joined the Imperium several days later, upon which they happily joined the Hylar-lead aquatic union within the Imperium. For centuries the Troutans and Haddockii lived, traded, and prospered within the union.

Like everywhere else, contact and transit has dwindled between the planets during the Dark Years.

And yes, there was a brief time 230 years ago when a Mentak ship carrying too much raw hydrogen without any redundant safety systems partially exploded and made a crash landing onto one of Tar'mann's small islands, residing there for 55 years of sporadic cannibalism before they got their rescue beacon working, never realizing the oceans surrounding them was populated.

But Mentak "outpost" or no Mentak "outpost", the native people of Tar'mann have been partners of the Jol-Nar for millenia prior, and there are still Troutan and Haddockian populations on Jol and Nar, as well as Hylar living in the myrkseas of Tar'mann from the cross-migrations of eons past. Come visit our excellent Museum of Extrasolar History in Wun-Escha where there is an entire wing dedicated to (and very well-documenting) this exciting history.

The mentak have no desire for prolonged residence on tarmentakan which as all agree was a bit of a shithole (though the sushi was excellent), but merely wish to visit the planet, lay to rest our mentak ancestors and move on to pastures new. The mentak hope both the sol and the jol nar will not stand in the way of this simple expression of grief for our ancestors, lest unfortunate hostilities occur.

The jol nar already have our promise of protection so the mentak are surprised that further expressions of good will are necessary, indeed the spread of the mentak can only further galactic trade in a safe, minorly taxed manor.

[Tattersail_]

From the Sol point of view we will see how the first couple of turns go because we have a few thoughts on what we'd like to accomplish and seem as we have no planets that hold tech we understand your eagerness to way lay that planet. If other objectives are further away than what is intended then there may be dispute but for now we may leave Tar'man well enough alone.

[Imperial Historian]

Tattersail_, on 03 February 2019 - 08:43 PM, said:

From the Sol point of view we will see how the first couple of turns go because we have a few thoughts on what we'd like to accomplish and seem as we have no planets that hold tech we understand your eagerness to way lay that planet. If other objectives are further away than what is intended then there may be dispute but for now we may leave Tar'man well enough alone.

The mentak appreciate the sol generosity in allowing us to express our grief. The mentak hold up the sol as examples to the rest of the galaxy.

[Gnaw]

Sumbitch.

50.3 If a space combat occurs in a nebula, the defender applies +1 to the combat rolls of his ships during that combat.

I missed that one last game.

[Gnaw]

Tapper, we will sell you our Trade PN and Political Secret for 3TG.

[Gnaw]

Uh, is Morgoth’s scoring of any SO he might get going to affect anyone’s strategy card choice? Why don’t we put a placeholder and get on with the strategy phase?

[Galactic Council]

Gnaw, on 03 February 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

Uh, is Morgoth’s scoring of any SO he might get going to affect anyone’s strategy card choice? Why don’t we put a placeholder and get on with the strategy phase?

It’s the weekend, so I’m happy to allow a delay. I’m sure he’ll be super prompt on Monday, and if not, then that’s another -5 TGs!

[Tapper]

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 08:14 PM, said:

What started out as an attempt at quid pro quo has quickly devolved into what seems to me both of us being soured on dealing with each other as you think I'm blackmailing you and now you are threatening to force me into losing a VP. At this point me trading you that card for 4 trade goods would only be to earn good will towards you which seems to be already lost which is the opposite of what I initially set out to accomplish.

My final thoughts on the matter and I won't bring it up again.I feel incredibly insulted by the fact that you are arguing against the expected value and say the minimum it's worth is less than 4 but i need to remind myself that not everyone is as logical or numbers focused as myself. So to explain in terms that aren't based on actual math/ statistics lets just look at what has historically occurred. With 9 player games on this forum this card has been played a minimum of twice each game. And without going back and actually scrubbing the posted actions each game I'm sure at least one of those games it was played more that that. Probably both but for arguments sake lets say that it will only get played twice so at bare minimum the card is worth 8 to the holder of that planet. If you can't or won't accept my trade that is fair and understandable as it is an early cost that would be avoided if possible but DON'T tell me it's not worth what I'm asking Anything less than 8 is a cost saving 100%.And by holding that card until late game you can use it for your benefit without fear of it coming back to bite you as it could be used to possibly score some of the influence/production/TG stage II public objections that could put you over the top in points.Hell I'd even spread out the payment plan over 3 rounds if the complete upfront cost is too daunting. Or Select me for your racial ability to pay it off and then you aren't out anything. Or stick with politely declining my offer and wish each other well in their future endeavors. The choice is always yours.


I want good relations with you. i don't want this disagreement to cause undue stress on that objective.

Now is anyone going to be watching the Super Bowl?

In every reply I have said our valuations can differ, and differ they do. As such, I will just politely decline your offer, we'll see where that brings us.

As for good relations, I guess the best we can currently expect is peace along our border and 1-on-1 commodities exchanges - I am still determined to not let this argument detoriate that, and it's better than what some will have - as we both know from game 1 and 2. However, I am at a loss how to operate in case I have something to offer you in the future, as your PoV throughout this episode seems to be that a different valuation than the one you set is just not acceptable to you.

I firmly believe market value does not have to be equal to expected value: after all, if you pay the expected value for something you're unlikely to make profit or loss. In a case like that in a game, I will almost always roll the dice.

FYI: I had a quick forum search when you mentioned expected value the first time: it's a very small sample size, but forum search on the card name shows one play of Uprising in Game 1, twice in Game 2 - all three of them on Daemon - the AC was sold in game 2 for 3 TG), so your initial estimate that it would be most likely be played three, four times per game seems off, so far. It might be showing up more often this game: it is likely played early on so it will be in the first big reshuffle, but I am willing to risk it.

[D'rek]

Yeah, even if Uprising was near the end of the AC pile there's not really any reason for anyone to hang onto it. It'll almost always get played pretty quick, and hence would probably make it into the deck reshuffle 95% of the time. If it only showed up a max of twice in previous games, it'll likely be the same this time.

[D'rek]

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:28 PM, said:

D, on 03 February 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

The Jol-Nar do not dispute the existence of this supposed Mentak "trading outpost" on Tar'mann, but we would highly encourage you to study the complete history of the planet before making such brash pronouncements. The planet - the surface of which, I will note, is 98% liquid - is populated by billions of the native aquatic semi-sentient Troutan and Haddockian species. First contact with both of these species was established in the initial Lazax survey (implemented overall by the Winnarans, but using Hylar for the actual contact due to the need for underwater contact) of the planet 1822 years ago, and the planet's native government voluntarily joined the Imperium several days later, upon which they happily joined the Hylar-lead aquatic union within the Imperium. For centuries the Troutans and Haddockii lived, traded, and prospered within the union.

Like everywhere else, contact and transit has dwindled between the planets during the Dark Years.

And yes, there was a brief time 230 years ago when a Mentak ship carrying too much raw hydrogen without any redundant safety systems partially exploded and made a crash landing onto one of Tar'mann's small islands, residing there for 55 years of sporadic cannibalism before they got their rescue beacon working, never realizing the oceans surrounding them was populated.

But Mentak "outpost" or no Mentak "outpost", the native people of Tar'mann have been partners of the Jol-Nar for millenia prior, and there are still Troutan and Haddockian populations on Jol and Nar, as well as Hylar living in the myrkseas of Tar'mann from the cross-migrations of eons past. Come visit our excellent Museum of Extrasolar History in Wun-Escha where there is an entire wing dedicated to (and very well-documenting) this exciting history.

The mentak have no desire for prolonged residence on tarmentakan which as all agree was a bit of a shithole (though the sushi was excellent), but merely wish to visit the planet, lay to rest our mentak ancestors and move on to pastures new. The mentak hope both the sol and the jol nar will not stand in the way of this simple expression of grief for our ancestors, lest unfortunate hostilities occur.

The jol nar already have our promise of protection so the mentak are surprised that further expressions of good will are necessary, indeed the spread of the mentak can only further galactic trade in a safe, minorly taxed manor.

Promise of Protection doesn't prevent you from attacking me. If you want me to voluntarily not take a planet I'm right next to and be hemmed in by Mentak ships on all sides... then the sense of security from holding the Mentak ceasefire would put me at ease about such a situation and make up for the lost resources I miss out on from not taking a planet that's right next to me. Obviously you want the planet so you can acquire a VP - don't you think trading a ceasefire for 1 VP plus however much resources you can get from it is worth it? And of course I promise I'm not going to use it for some sort of maneuver where I try to move to Tar'mann or Mehar Xull before you and then block you from them.


If not, well... I enjoy your RP, but giving up a useful planet to you so you can acquire a VP and all I get in return is some fun reading isn't a good enough deal.

[Gnaw]

Yoo-hoo, pretty-girl-in-funny-hat-avatar-person. Any thoughts on the trade offer we made?

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 04 February 2019 - 07:27 AM

[Imperial Historian]

D, on 04 February 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:28 PM, said:

D, on 03 February 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

The Jol-Nar do not dispute the existence of this supposed Mentak "trading outpost" on Tar'mann, but we would highly encourage you to study the complete history of the planet before making such brash pronouncements. The planet - the surface of which, I will note, is 98% liquid - is populated by billions of the native aquatic semi-sentient Troutan and Haddockian species. First contact with both of these species was established in the initial Lazax survey (implemented overall by the Winnarans, but using Hylar for the actual contact due to the need for underwater contact) of the planet 1822 years ago, and the planet's native government voluntarily joined the Imperium several days later, upon which they happily joined the Hylar-lead aquatic union within the Imperium. For centuries the Troutans and Haddockii lived, traded, and prospered within the union.

Like everywhere else, contact and transit has dwindled between the planets during the Dark Years.

And yes, there was a brief time 230 years ago when a Mentak ship carrying too much raw hydrogen without any redundant safety systems partially exploded and made a crash landing onto one of Tar'mann's small islands, residing there for 55 years of sporadic cannibalism before they got their rescue beacon working, never realizing the oceans surrounding them was populated.

But Mentak "outpost" or no Mentak "outpost", the native people of Tar'mann have been partners of the Jol-Nar for millenia prior, and there are still Troutan and Haddockian populations on Jol and Nar, as well as Hylar living in the myrkseas of Tar'mann from the cross-migrations of eons past. Come visit our excellent Museum of Extrasolar History in Wun-Escha where there is an entire wing dedicated to (and very well-documenting) this exciting history.

The mentak have no desire for prolonged residence on tarmentakan which as all agree was a bit of a shithole (though the sushi was excellent), but merely wish to visit the planet, lay to rest our mentak ancestors and move on to pastures new. The mentak hope both the sol and the jol nar will not stand in the way of this simple expression of grief for our ancestors, lest unfortunate hostilities occur.

The jol nar already have our promise of protection so the mentak are surprised that further expressions of good will are necessary, indeed the spread of the mentak can only further galactic trade in a safe, minorly taxed manor.

Promise of Protection doesn't prevent you from attacking me. If you want me to voluntarily not take a planet I'm right next to and be hemmed in by Mentak ships on all sides... then the sense of security from holding the Mentak ceasefire would put me at ease about such a situation and make up for the lost resources I miss out on from not taking a planet that's right next to me. Obviously you want the planet so you can acquire a VP - don't you think trading a ceasefire for 1 VP plus however much resources you can get from it is worth it? And of course I promise I'm not going to use it for some sort of maneuver where I try to move to Tar'mann or Mehar Xull before you and then block you from them.


If not, well... I enjoy your RP, but giving up a useful planet to you so you can acquire a VP and all I get in return is some fun reading isn't a good enough deal.

Being surrounded by a the warm comforting embrace of the mentak doesn't fill you with security? If you are surrounded by us we also prevent the rest of the galaxy from reaching you, which is surely a big benefit for you fragile squid creatures that you are.

RP aside id be happy to trade my ceasefire for a VP and tar'man but a) your claim to it is disputed so I'm unlikely to hold it long, if we ended up fighting for it I'm pretty sure I'd win in the end, and make turtling difficult for you c) me holding it gives you a very distracting mentak shield leaving you free to pursue your ideal startegy of turtling in peace. And finally d) there is nothing to stop you firing away at my ships everyone I produce when you inevitably get PDS 2 on bereg/lirta, and I build a forward base on saudor.

So I'm open to a deal that appropriately values my ceasefire, but I think I value it higher than you. I'd want as a minimum that your PDS don't fire on me, and fire to defend my planets for the duration of the ceasefire (and vice versa if I get pds2), on top of your assurances that you won't use it to do anything tricky.

The security you get is much more beneficial to you than me.