[Gnaw]

Morgoth, on 03 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

Gnaw, on 02 February 2019 - 10:57 PM, said:

Proposal. Our analytics Units have recommended a deeper connection with the Embers of Muaat. Strategic council agrees and wishes to exchange SftT PNs with the Embers. This would be in addition to and contingent upon our previous offer of exchange of racial PNs.

Proposal. Our analytics Units have recommended a connection with the Barony of Letnev. Strategic council agrees and wishes to exchange Ceasefire PNs with the Barony. This would be with the understanding that neither PN would be activated simply to impede passage through the Qucen'n/Rarron system. Also with the gentlebeings' understanding that neither Ceasfire would be traded to third parties without approval/reparations.

I am positive, though it cannot be used to prevent me from taking Qucen'n Rarron, I have an emotional attachment to that system. But yes, I am happy to let you rampage throughout the galaxy without interference. Chaos is a ladder, as some say, and the Nekro bring such glorious chaos.

We have previously stated that we would not argue that system. Until right before our inevitable victory and only in the event that that system is the final circuitry needed to ensure said inevitable victory.

[Imperial Historian]

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

[Gnaw]

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

Recognotion. Our cartography Units also inform us that they have records indicating prior Mentak ownership of that system. We will transmit them to any who wish to verify this information. It might take a couple of millicycles before we can do so as forging verifying the time/date stamp on Official Imperium Starmaps requires delicate programming. We do not wish to encourage conflict amongst so many competitors; we simply wish to show our fitness for the Throne by demonstrating our fairness to all.

[Tapper]

The Hacan emirs have no evidence to contribute, but hope the Race for Tar'mann will be entertaining.

[Gnaw]

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

The Hacan emirs have no evidence to contribute, but hope the Race for Tar'mann will be entertaining.

We understand the Solarians ingest a nutritional delicacy known as 'popcorn' while joining together in groups to enjoy sensorium entertainment spectacles such as this. Maybe we could join you, the Embers, and The Arborec for a couple of 16th cycles to watch the fireworks? (It's probably against the Barony's religious strictures to enjoy battles to which they weren't invited.)

[Imperial Historian]

It's tarmentakan, we do not recognise the current shortening of the name recorded in imperial maps. This was the home of our forefathers, a place steeped in the history of pirates traders past.

[Imperial Historian]

The mentak wish to visit tarmentakan one last time and pay homage to there forefathers and lay there spirits to rest, once this is done they will gladly step aside for tarmentakans new owners... For a small fee.

[Imperial Historian]

Question on uprising, if a planet is already exhausted, can it be used? By my reading the planet must be not exhausted for it to have any effect is this true?

[Blend]

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 05:21 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

Tapper,

I have a trade proposal for you. I've come into possession of an Action card that you will most likely want. I' will show it to you. I'm thinking your trade agreement PN would be worth it to you. Please let me know your thoughts. Though if you are in possession of a flank speed AC I would be willing to add in my trade agreement PN to pay for that card as well.

It is a good card, but it is (as all AC) not worth a permanent PN imho. GC still has to give me my AC, if it is a Flank Speed I will happily exchange, if not, it might be a good action for you to use late in the round?

That action card is likely to hurt you multiple times throughout the game. I'm giving you the chance to take it out of action for just 6 tgs the rest of the game. But if you don't think it's worth that price then I'm going to use it for max benefit and put it back into circulation. Apologies in advance for the inconvenience it will cause.

I like how you manage to turn what started as a friendly offer from you to me into, essentially, blackmail.

I still haven't received my AC from Blend. Let's wait for that - and yes, I'd rather pay some TG for that card than my Racial, if 6 TG is a new offer.

You mean Khell right?

[Blend]

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

Question on uprising, if a planet is already exhausted, can it be used? By my reading the planet must be not exhausted for it to have any effect is this true?

I would say your reading is correct. You cant exhaust a planet that is already exhausted. But Khell is da mod here!

[Tapper]

Blend, on 03 February 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 05:21 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

Tapper,

I have a trade proposal for you. I've come into possession of an Action card that you will most likely want. I' will show it to you. I'm thinking your trade agreement PN would be worth it to you. Please let me know your thoughts. Though if you are in possession of a flank speed AC I would be willing to add in my trade agreement PN to pay for that card as well.

It is a good card, but it is (as all AC) not worth a permanent PN imho. GC still has to give me my AC, if it is a Flank Speed I will happily exchange, if not, it might be a good action for you to use late in the round?

That action card is likely to hurt you multiple times throughout the game. I'm giving you the chance to take it out of action for just 6 tgs the rest of the game. But if you don't think it's worth that price then I'm going to use it for max benefit and put it back into circulation. Apologies in advance for the inconvenience it will cause.

I like how you manage to turn what started as a friendly offer from you to me into, essentially, blackmail.

I still haven't received my AC from Blend. Let's wait for that - and yes, I'd rather pay some TG for that card than my Racial, if 6 TG is a new offer.

You mean Khell right?

Yeah, sorry.

[Tapper]

Blend, on 03 February 2019 - 01:45 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

Question on uprising, if a planet is already exhausted, can it be used? By my reading the planet must be not exhausted for it to have any effect is this true?

I would say your reading is correct. You cant exhaust a planet that is already exhausted. But Khell is da mod here!

If the text for the card on the chat thread is correct, it says "Exhaust a planet controlled by another player. THEN (emphasis mine) gain trade goods....", making the exhausting of a plabet controlled by another player the condition for gaining the TG.

Rule 2.6 says "a player cannot resolve a component action if he cannot completely resolve the action."

Rule 32.4 of the glossary says an exhausted card cannot be exhausted again.

Combining the two, it seems to me that, as you cannot exhaust an already exhausted planet, you a therefore cannot completely resolve Uprising if you target an exhausted planet with it, ergo Uprising cannot be played on an already exhausted planet.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 03 February 2019 - 02:04 PM

[Galactic Council]

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 02:03 PM, said:

Blend, on 03 February 2019 - 01:45 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

Question on uprising, if a planet is already exhausted, can it be used? By my reading the planet must be not exhausted for it to have any effect is this true?

I would say your reading is correct. You cant exhaust a planet that is already exhausted. But Khell is da mod here!

If the text for the card on the chat thread is correct, it says "Exhaust a planet controlled by another player. THEN (emphasis mine) gain trade goods....", making the exhausting of a plabet controlled by another player the condition for gaining the TG.

Rule 2.6 says "a player cannot resolve a component action if he cannot completely resolve the action."

Rule 32.4 of the glossary says an exhausted card cannot be exhausted again.

Combining the two, it seems to me that, as you cannot exhaust an already exhausted planet, you a therefore cannot completely resolve Uprising if you target an exhausted planet with it, ergo Uprising cannot be played on an already exhausted planet.

I agree.

[Tapper]

@ Twelve: I offer 3 TG for Uprising.

Reasons being:
1. Anyone willing to buy it would base their price on expected yield for them, which is most likely 3 and only in the best case scenario 4, thus its price would most likely be 2 TG if you offered to sell it on an open market. I offer you 1.5 times that.

2. While it may be used multiple times as it is reshuffled, this is likely the only time you'll have it, making my offer equal to its more likely value (see 4).

3. Refreshing Daemon costs me 0.5 CT aka 1.5 TG through Diplomacy. Paying you 6 TG would thus only prove to be a break even investment after being used against me 4 times.

4. If we do not come to a trade, I can still try and avoid you playing it by getting a low # Strategy and Producing. Uprising is a cool card but it hurts much more early game than later on.

5. You said before the game that you had hopes I would be a good neighbour. I currently do not find the deal you offer me in that ballpark. I will keep the peace, but I will also downgrade you from ally to rival, with a prank here or there in return.

[twelve]

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 05:21 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

Tapper,

I have a trade proposal for you. I've come into possession of an Action card that you will most likely want. I' will show it to you. I'm thinking your trade agreement PN would be worth it to you. Please let me know your thoughts. Though if you are in possession of a flank speed AC I would be willing to add in my trade agreement PN to pay for that card as well.

It is a good card, but it is (as all AC) not worth a permanent PN imho. GC still has to give me my AC, if it is a Flank Speed I will happily exchange, if not, it might be a good action for you to use late in the round?

That action card is likely to hurt you multiple times throughout the game. I'm giving you the chance to take it out of action for just 6 tgs the rest of the game. But if you don't think it's worth that price then I'm going to use it for max benefit and put it back into circulation. Apologies in advance for the inconvenience it will cause.

I like how you manage to turn what started as a friendly offer from you to me into, essentially, blackmail.

I still haven't received my AC from Blend. Let's wait for that - and yes, I'd rather pay some TG for that card than my Racial, if 6 TG is a new offer.

I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure I asked for your trade agreement pn not your racial. I was figuring a 2 trade good premium now was worth the savings of 6 to 10 worth later in the game. I thought it was just good business sense and the fact that you didn't take the deal was frankly very surprising. But you thinking that I was after your racial and didn't jump on that trade is also very surprising as I value your racial much different than you. I think it's one of the weakest racials as all you are getting is possible convenience.. The longer you sit on it the less value it has. It might be worth the action card but It's not what I'm after. If it sounded like blackmail that is not what I intended. I thought the fact that I showed it to you implied I was going to use it max benefit and it was a courtesy to you to nip it in the bud early.
Now my counter proposal for when you do finally get your action card is if you land a flank speed I would offer the above trade and add my trade agreement PN for the flank speed.
All deals are open for negotiations of course and I would greatly like continued good relations with my neighbors

[twelve]

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

I'll give up all claims to Tarr'mann and accept the Mentak as rightful owners of the system in exchange for no thieving of any Winnu trades if/when we border you.

[Imperial Historian]

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 03 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

The mentak are dismayed that the jol nar, sol and winnu races are discussing the ownership of tarman amongst themselves, when it is clear that this planet was an old mentak outpost (produces map with tarmentakan written on in crayon). If tarmentakan is to be taken then due consideration must be given to the mentaks prior claim. This planet is of great sentimental value to some of our crews and we would be loath to give up our claim.

I'll give up all claims to Tarr'mann and accept the Mentak as rightful owners of the system in exchange for no thieving of any Winnu trades if/when we border you.

The mentak gladly accept this immediate and forthright recognition of the mentak claim to the home of there forefathers tarmentakan (I note your continued use of the old style name). The mentak are shocked at the suggestion of potential thievery, and will review the standing orders of the mentak confederacy immediately, thievery would be beneath the peaceful mentak traders. The mentak shall endeavour to keep the space lanes free for trade to all.

[Tapper]

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 05:21 AM, said:

twelve, on 03 February 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

Tapper,

I have a trade proposal for you. I've come into possession of an Action card that you will most likely want. I' will show it to you. I'm thinking your trade agreement PN would be worth it to you. Please let me know your thoughts. Though if you are in possession of a flank speed AC I would be willing to add in my trade agreement PN to pay for that card as well.

It is a good card, but it is (as all AC) not worth a permanent PN imho. GC still has to give me my AC, if it is a Flank Speed I will happily exchange, if not, it might be a good action for you to use late in the round?

That action card is likely to hurt you multiple times throughout the game. I'm giving you the chance to take it out of action for just 6 tgs the rest of the game. But if you don't think it's worth that price then I'm going to use it for max benefit and put it back into circulation. Apologies in advance for the inconvenience it will cause.

I like how you manage to turn what started as a friendly offer from you to me into, essentially, blackmail.

I still haven't received my AC from Blend. Let's wait for that - and yes, I'd rather pay some TG for that card than my Racial, if 6 TG is a new offer.

I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure I asked for your trade agreement pn not your racial. I was figuring a 2 trade good premium now was worth the savings of 6 to 10 worth later in the game. I thought it was just good business sense and the fact that you didn't take the deal was frankly very surprising. But you thinking that I was after your racial and didn't jump on that trade is also very surprising as I value your racial much different than you. I think it's one of the weakest racials as all you are getting is possible convenience.. The longer you sit on it the less value it has. It might be worth the action card but It's not what I'm after. If it sounded like blackmail that is not what I intended. I thought the fact that I showed it to you implied I was going to use it max benefit and it was a courtesy to you to nip it in the bud early.
Now my counter proposal for when you do finally get your action card is if you land a flank speed I would offer the above trade and add my trade agreement PN for the flank speed.
All deals are open for negotiations of course and I would greatly like continued good relations with my neighbors

I don't have a flank speed. See above for my valuation of Uprising and return offer.

[Tapper]

Anyway, my apologies for reading your initial offer incorrectly and for getting your intentions wrong. We can have different valuations of cards/planets and mechanics and that might be at play here, too.

I would prefer a deal to, as you say, nip this in the bud. Our idea of what the card should cost is far apart, though, so ultimately, I will not be surprised if we fail to make a deal.

[twelve]

Tapper, on 03 February 2019 - 03:40 PM, said:

@ Twelve: I offer 3 TG for Uprising.

Reasons being:
1. Anyone willing to buy it would base their price on expected yield for them, which is most likely 3 and only in the best case scenario 4, thus its price would most likely be 2 TG if you offered to sell it on an open market. I offer you 1.5 times that.

2. While it may be used multiple times as it is reshuffled, this is likely the only time you'll have it, making my offer equal to its more likely value (see 4).

3. Refreshing Daemon costs me 0.5 CT aka 1.5 TG through Diplomacy. Paying you 6 TG would thus only prove to be a break even investment after being used against me 4 times.

4. If we do not come to a trade, I can still try and avoid you playing it by getting a low # Strategy and Producing. Uprising is a cool card but it hurts much more early game than later on.

5. You said before the game that you had hopes I would be a good neighbour. I currently do not find the deal you offer me in that ballpark. I will keep the peace, but I will also downgrade you from ally to rival, with a prank here or there in return.

So yo are asking me to take a loss on the action card when the clear minimum value would be 4, the production value of Daemon.

Rebuttal point 1. That is the expected outcome for everyone Else not the owner of the system. The expected savings for you is much greater so the value of this action card in your hands is also much greater.
Rebuttal point 2. Yes I'm likely only to get it this one time and as a good business man would like to maximize it's value but in such a way that it will also benefit my good neighbor.
Rebuttal point 3. The refresh value of Diplomacy is a sunk cost. You will pay this any time you would want to refresh this system regardless of if you exhausted Daemon or someone else did it for you. If anything it increases the value of owning the action card as you gain 12 to 16 more resources over the course of the game than you normally would have otherwise with the action card in general circulation.
Rebuttal point 4. And this is the price I paid by letting you know I have the card and why I'm such a good neighbor by putting myself in a poor position to utilize the card to max benefit. But this will force you to use a production action as your first action and prioritize picking lower initiative than me each and every round which most often isn't worth the opportunity costs. But you do you.
Rebuttal point 5. I came to you in good faith. Gave you information i didn't have to give you. Offered you a smoking of a deal as my above rebuttals have proven the value of this action card to you over having it in general population and you are punishing me for it? Damn I really do think different than most people. I truly thought I was doing you a serious solid by offering you this deal.

No I'm not asking you to take a loss. With the card in circulation you are looking at a loss of value of 12 to 16 resources. I'm asking for 6. This is a production saving of 50-60%. This is a great deal and if the roles were reversed I would pay this in a heart beat. And I don't appreciate the fact that you are painting me as an ass it trying to do us both a favor. I'm taking your comments are you just trying to negotiate me down from my asking price but I'm still hurt nonetheless. 6 trade goods is a fare asking price for the owner of Daemon and I stand by this number. The choice is yours.