[Imperial Historian]

So macgnaw up again?

[Tattersail_]

Yep

[Gnaw]

twelve, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

Warfare secondary move dread infantry (figher if I can) winnu to everra.
Tech secondary spend 4 trade goods. Research Hegemonic Trade Policy.

Gnaw, on 21 September 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

Secondaries:

Construction: No action
Trade: -1CT refresh commodities trade 4:4 with Tatts
Warfare: -1CT
move carrier, 2 infantry, and 2 fighters from Arinam/Meer to empty hex with destroyer
Move dread and 1 fighter from Daemon to Arinam/Meer
Leadership: exhaust Archon Tau, Meer, Ensepta, Arinam, and Archon Ren for 12 influence == 4CT 3 strategic and 1 tactical

---

I found two examples from last game of warfare being used to move infantry and fighters. Didn't bother looking at game 1 and stopped looking after I found 2 in game 2.

I have little difficulty with saying this is a new game and we're going to do it differently. However that should have been said upfront not in the late stages of a round where one player has (apparently) based part of their strategy on the precedents of the prior game(s). Not fair to Tapper and makes me wonder what other rules will change on the fly.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 12 February 2019 - 07:31 PM

[Gnaw]

Now, having said that...

Tapper and Tatts seem to be in discord as to when warfare should be played. What’s it worth to each of you to either encourage or discourage me from playing it this turn?

[twelve]

I'm okay moving troops and fighters with the warfare secondary. Keep it the same as past games and if people start to use it for OP maneuvers then neuter it for future games.

[Tattersail_]

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:37 PM, said:

Now, having said that...

Tapper and Tatts seem to be in discord as to when warfare should be played. What’s it worth to each of you to either encourage or discourage me from playing it this turn?

Go for it, not at dispute with Tapper. Just wanted clarification.

[Tattersail_]

At Tapper would you like to come to a deal regarding Mallice? I go before you so can land troops there first but I'm just wondering what you have in mind before doing anything concrete.

[Galactic Council]

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

makes me wonder what other rules will change on the fly.

Anything and everything I want - look forward to a new rule change every round. A roll of 5 blows up your fleet. The politics secondary now switches your race!

I really didn’t think such a thing had happened in previous games because it just didn’t sound like something the Warfare sec was meant for, and I still don’t, but also don’t be melodramatic about it If the precedent was set I will keep it the same, I didn’t think I was changing anything by not allowing infantry but it seems that I would be.

That having been said, I still don’t agree with picking up troops before moving and think that should be revisited before a new game starts.

[Tapper]

Tattersail_, on 12 February 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

At Tapper would you like to come to a deal regarding Mallice? I go before you so can land troops there first but I'm just wondering what you have in mind before doing anything concrete.

Settle, fortify and ultimately shoot PDS II at anything that moves on a wormhole hex while reaping a CT a turn from it.

I am not going to start a war over Mallice with you over it, though. But if you take it, as your neighbour in Lodor I do expect you to protect not only the planet but also its airspace.

[Tattersail_]

Tapper, on 12 February 2019 - 09:42 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 12 February 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

At Tapper would you like to come to a deal regarding Mallice? I go before you so can land troops there first but I'm just wondering what you have in mind before doing anything concrete.

Settle, fortify and ultimately shoot PDS II at anything that moves on a wormhole hex while reaping a CT a turn from it.

I am not going to start a war over Mallice with you over it, though. But if you take it, as your neighbour in Lodor I do expect you to protect not only the planet but also its airspace.

I see what you are saying. You want me to have a ship in there most of the time. I haven't thought that far ahead but I won't want to relinquish the planet any time soon.

If you had offered anything to have it then I may have considered it as there was another option I was contemplating but it was too risky without further boons.

[Gnaw]

Galactic Council, on 12 February 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

makes me wonder what other rules will change on the fly.

Anything and everything I want - look forward to a new rule change every round. A roll of 5 blows up your fleet. The politics secondary now switches your race!

I really didn't think such a thing had happened in previous games because it just didn't sound like something the Warfare sec was meant for, and I still don't, but also don't be melodramatic about it If the precedent was set I will keep it the same, I didn't think I was changing anything by not allowing infantry but it seems that I would be.

That having been said, I still don't agree with picking up troops before moving and think that should be revisited before a new game starts.

Oooooo a set of special cards that goes out to everyone before the game, one per player:

Choose a player: they have to choose another race.

Choose two players: chosen players have to switch starting positions.

Choose a player: switch homeworld positions with that player (just the homeworlds move).


As for the warfare secondary, I don't see the problem with it. If it was OP everyone would be using it to move infantry around. The only way I can see it being truly overpowered would be if Logistics was played followed immediately by Warfare in the same turn. Following players could build, move via warfare secondary, then perform a Tactical Action to move again. Unlikely to the point I don't recall that happening yet.
If you really are concerned about it being OP, make it read 2 units. I started to say excluding docks and PDS but that might make it fun...

[Galactic Council]

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 11:04 PM, said:

Galactic Council, on 12 February 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

makes me wonder what other rules will change on the fly.

Anything and everything I want - look forward to a new rule change every round. A roll of 5 blows up your fleet. The politics secondary now switches your race!

I really didn't think such a thing had happened in previous games because it just didn't sound like something the Warfare sec was meant for, and I still don't, but also don't be melodramatic about it If the precedent was set I will keep it the same, I didn't think I was changing anything by not allowing infantry but it seems that I would be.

That having been said, I still don't agree with picking up troops before moving and think that should be revisited before a new game starts.

Oooooo a set of special cards that goes out to everyone before the game, one per player:

Choose a player: they have to choose another race.

Choose two players: chosen players have to switch starting positions.

Choose a player: switch homeworld positions with that player (just the homeworlds move).


As for the warfare secondary, I don't see the problem with it. If it was OP everyone would be using it to move infantry around. The only way I can see it being truly overpowered would be if Logistics was played followed immediately by Warfare in the same turn. Following players could build, move via warfare secondary, then perform a Tactical Action to move again. Unlikely to the point I don't recall that happening yet.
If you really are concerned about it being OP, make it read 2 units. I started to say excluding docks and PDS but that might make it fun...

It’s less about it being OP (as you say, that hasn’t been shown yet in previous games) and more that it doesn’t, to me, seem to be in the spirit of the card. After all, if you can pick up infantry from a planet and put them in the space area with the move, why can’t you set them down as well at the end?

[twelve]

I think last game why I was able to pick up and drop troops had to do with the limitations on where you could move with the secondary. Last game you could only go to empty space or a system you controled. This game it sounds like you are only restricted by your ships movement. Sudden ship redeployments does sound like you don't have time for troop movements unless you treat the warfare secondary like you do construction and allow troop movements but the system you end up places a token from your reinforcements and theven system moved into is locked down for the round.

[Galactic Council]

twelve, on 13 February 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

I think last game why I was able to pick up and drop troops had to do with the limitations on where you could move with the secondary. Last game you could only go to empty space or a system you controled. This game it sounds like you are only restricted by your ships movement. Sudden ship redeployments does sound like you don't have time for troop movements unless you treat the warfare secondary like you do construction and allow troop movements but the system you end up places a token from your reinforcements and theven system moved into is locked down for the round.

You still can’t go anywhere where another player’s units are present.

This post has been edited by Galactic Council: 13 February 2019 - 01:12 AM

[Galactic Council]

That is, I’m defining ‘empty’ along the TI3 definition:

Quote

Definition of an “Empty“ System
The TI rules and cards will sometimes refer to an “empty” system. An empty system is a system completely free of units, including units belonging to the active player. In other words, an empty system is one that is free from ship, Ground Force, PDS, or Space Dock units. The system may, however, contain planets, Control Markers, and Command Counters.

This post has been edited by Galactic Council: 13 February 2019 - 01:13 AM

[Gnaw]

Galactic Council, on 13 February 2019 - 12:12 AM, said:

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 11:04 PM, said:

Galactic Council, on 12 February 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 12 February 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

makes me wonder what other rules will change on the fly.

Anything and everything I want - look forward to a new rule change every round. A roll of 5 blows up your fleet. The politics secondary now switches your race!

I really didn't think such a thing had happened in previous games because it just didn't sound like something the Warfare sec was meant for, and I still don't, but also don't be melodramatic about it If the precedent was set I will keep it the same, I didn't think I was changing anything by not allowing infantry but it seems that I would be.

That having been said, I still don't agree with picking up troops before moving and think that should be revisited before a new game starts.

Oooooo a set of special cards that goes out to everyone before the game, one per player:

Choose a player: they have to choose another race.

Choose two players: chosen players have to switch starting positions.

Choose a player: switch homeworld positions with that player (just the homeworlds move).


As for the warfare secondary, I don't see the problem with it. If it was OP everyone would be using it to move infantry around. The only way I can see it being truly overpowered would be if Logistics was played followed immediately by Warfare in the same turn. Following players could build, move via warfare secondary, then perform a Tactical Action to move again. Unlikely to the point I don't recall that happening yet.
If you really are concerned about it being OP, make it read 2 units. I started to say excluding docks and PDS but that might make it fun...

It's less about it being OP (as you say, that hasn't been shown yet in previous games) and more that it doesn't, to me, seem to be in the spirit of the card. After all, if you can pick up infantry from a planet and put them in the space area with the move, why can't you set them down as well at the end?

Because an invasion can only happen as part of a tactical action.

For example, when I was mistaking the logistics secondary for the warfare secondary, I was considering moving the forces out of my homeworld to Wellon. That way my ships would be there without actually having to take Wellon.
I find it perfectly logical and don't see a problem with it. Definitely don't think it's OP. The free build offered by the logistics secondary is far more OP in my mind.

Galactic Council, on 13 February 2019 - 01:13 AM, said:

That is, I'm defining 'empty' along the TI3 definition:

Quote

Definition of an "Empty" System
The TI rules and cards will sometimes refer to an "empty" system. An empty system is a system completely free of units, including units belonging to the active player. In other words, an empty system is one that is free from ship, Ground Force, PDS, or Space Dock units. The system may, however, contain planets, Control Markers, and Command Counters.

That is a perfectly reasonable definition.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 13 February 2019 - 01:34 AM

[Gnaw]

Holy crap Tatts. 10/12?? And they're worried about me??? I'm 14/4

D'rek == 12/18

Tapper == 8/8

Twelve == 10/9

Blend == 8/8

IH == 12/9

Morgoth == 15/10

Nom == 5/4


Yeah, we're the ones to worry about.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 13 February 2019 - 02:17 AM

[D'rek]

Gnaw, on 13 February 2019 - 02:09 AM, said:

Holy crap Tatts. 10/12?? And they're worried about me??? I'm 14/4

D'rek == 12/18

Tapper == 8/8

Twelve == 10/9

Blend == 8/8

IH == 12/9

Morgoth == 15/10

Nom == 5/4


Yeah, we're the ones to worry about.

Big difference in context. E.g., I might technically have 12 resources total but they're all spread across my planets so it's only if I spend no influence all round. If I maximize each planet I have... 5 resources (and yes, 16 influence, I have MR for now after all). Tatts' maximum efficiency is 8/9, yours is 13/2, Tapper is 7/7, Twelve is 6/7, Morgoth is 14/8, IH is 11/3 (or 7/7), etc.

Of course being 13/2 isn't great either if it means you have no influence to get CTs or votes... unless you're Nekro.

[twelve]

Dang my spread isn't very good compared to everyone else. And I'm not cryingoing for you Gnaw. You are guaranteed 3 for every technology secondary. Better then most of us every round

[Gnaw]

Morgoth is downright scary.