[King Lear]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

King Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.

What does supporting and protecting them involve?

Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.

But these are structural responses to what is being presented as an individual problem/solution. None of those things involve you or any of us supporting Amphibian who, on saying (I thought rhetorically, but I could be wrong - I doubt it though)

amphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

(bolding mine)

And received a response that fundamentally boils down to 'try harder'.

I think it's a mistake to talk about this hypothetically when you're dealing with a real person who you have known for years saying "these people want to hurt me". I had a very visceral reaction to reading the conversation on this thread, and I can't help wondering what you would have or have felt if someone you'd known for a very long time said to you, on being told that the children and teenagers you were afraid of wanted to hurt you, 'have you tried reaching out to them'. And if you did try, or did want to try, what support would have helped child Apt or adult librarian Apt in way that actually felt useful?

This post has been edited by King Lear: 05 August 2020 - 08:53 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

King Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 08:53 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

King Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.

What does supporting and protecting them involve?

Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.

But these are structural responses to what is being presented as an individual problem/solution. None of those things involve you or any of us supporting Amphibian who, on saying (I thought rhetorically, but I could be wrong - I doubt it though)

amphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

(bolding mine)

And received a response that fundamentally boils down to 'try harder'.

I think it's a mistake to talk about this hypothetically when you're dealing with a real person who you have known for years saying "these people want to hurt me". I had a very visceral reaction to reading the conversation on this thread, and I can't help wondering what you would have or have felt if someone you'd known for a very long time said to you, on being told that the children and teenagers you were afraid of wanted to hurt you, 'have you tried reaching out to them'. And if you did try, or did want to try, what support would have helped child Apt or adult librarian Apt in way that actually felt useful?

The question seemed to be how to connect (and, implicitly, whether it's possible), not whether it's worth the possible emotional stress.

However, the research cited in the articles I posted not only demonstrate that it's possible in many cases, but provide specific techniques that have been effective. (It also matches my limited personal experience, as well as many anecdotal accounts.)

There are practical and effective techniques for dealing with the emotional stress. The added questions of safety from physical violence (by others, not one's own brain) or discrimination are important, but should be assessed realistically, without catastrophizing.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 05 August 2020 - 09:17 PM

[amphibian]

In my experience, that reaching out has led to "oh you're one of the good ones, we still have all the bad ones over there".

To be clear, I mostly present as a white man - so I don't get nearly as much shit as my best friend, who is a Latina woman. And neither of us get as much shit combined as our other close friend, who is a black woman.

One of the reasons why this is so difficult is because even if I or my friends sit down with that super right wing person and convince them we're approximately equals, they're going right back to the same Fbook meme feeds, the same social circles that let them be as racist and classist as they want to, and the same television choices that reinforce the racism and classism.

The "turn a KKK member around by talking to them for a while" dynamic works in large part when that person is removed from their life - as in they're in jail or they've been pushed to move.

The reason why I know that this "just talk to them" approach doesn't work in my life or for me is because I've tried it with my best friend's brother in law and his brother and their buddies. I hung out with him socially from 2008 to about 2018 with decreasing amounts of time spent with him until I stopped seeing him or talking to him and his circles. The reason why that decline happened is because despite me putting in tons of work to find studies, to find articles, to simply talk to him about my experiences and those of others, he'd come right back the next day with more racist memes about guns and black on black crime. He fundamentally does not view me as equal, even though I look mostly white, because I have a disability (deafness) and because I'm a "liberal". This is a guy with one working lung, two children under six, a mother who is a cancer survivor, a brother who has brain cancer, and more yet he still refuses to wear a mask or stop going out socially.

He fundamentally cannot believe that I or my best friend (his wife's sister) have anything resembling a decent take on reality or expertise or even a point worth changing something in his life about. His brother is the same way despite being someone currently dying of brain cancer and lucky enough to not be bankrupted by medical bills due to good insurance through work.

Nothing gets through to them past a surface "oh, maybe that's true" level. Their lives are structured around maximizing their money + autonomy, having guns enough to scare people from "taking their shit", and being "strong".

It's been 12 years of having these people tangentially in my life and I can't say that we've made progress on any issues other than accepting homosexuality or bisexuality in others because his first cousin is a lesbian who came out in 2001.

There's no incentive for him to change if his own family and sometimes crappy situation doesn't make him want to change.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Tulane Canceled a Talk by the Author of an Acclaimed Anti-Racism Book After Students Said the Event Was "Violent"

In Life of a Klansman, Edward Ball reckons with a white supremacist ancestor. Try explaining that to the students.

The New York Times hailed it as "a haunting tapestry of interwoven stories that inform us not just about our past but about the resentment-bred demons that are all too present in our society today," and the anti-racism scholar Ibram X. Kendi participated in a virtual discussion about it with Ball. Tulane University was slated to host another such event, featuring Ball and Lydia Pelot-Hobbs, an assistant professor of geography and African American studies.

[...] the university opted to postpone it following blinkered outrage from students who insisted that the event was "not only inappropriate but violent towards the experience of Black people in the Tulane community and our country." Other members of the Tulane community called it "harmful and offensive," and demanded its cancellation. Still others said the university should apologize and take action against whoever approved the event.

[...] a casual observer might wonder whether they mistakenly thought the book was written by a Klansman, or endorsed the Klan. The comments on the event's announcement page—as well as statements by student government officials—make it abundantly clear this is not the case. They know exactly what the book's point of view is.

"The last thing we need to do is allow someone who is even reflecting on the hatred of their ancestors to speak about white supremacy, even if their efforts come from a place of accountability," one student wrote on Instagram.

"There is nothing that a book on white supremacy written by the descendant of a Klansman can do to promote or influence an anti-racism atmosphere," wrote another.

But this wasn't just random students leaving comments; Tulane's student government weighed in as well. In a letter to the administration "on behalf of the entire student body," [...] demanded the event's cancellation. And they did not mince words.

[...] The New Republic---currently one of the woke-est of the progressive magazines---wrote that Ball "builds a psychological portrait of white supremacy, which then radiates outward and across time, to explain the motives and historical background behind racist violence." Yet leaders of Tulane's student body think it is their solemn duty to prevent anyone from learning about this history.'

https://reason.com/2...tudents-racist/

Study:

'It was not our intention to choose items that most or typical liberal/conservative students at UNC hold, nor did we attempt to select the most extreme viewpoints in order to manufacture artificial controversy. Rather, we attempted to choose views that are genuinely controversial and that a critical mass of individuals on our campus really do hold. These are views that students will encounter as they navigate their academic and social lives.

[...] interrupting a speaker or blocking entrance to a campus event---have been used by groups around the country, but are generally prohibited by student conduct
codes, including UNC's.

[...] In the Feb. 5 draft of this report, this finding read, "Over 25% of students endorse blocking a speaker they disagree with." That statement accurately describes the proportion of students who selected "somewhat appropriate," "appropriate," or "entirely appropriate" in response to the "create obstruction" and "form a picket line" items below. However, Table 17 below reports proportions that are calculated in a more restrictive way: only "appropriate" and "entirely appropriate" are coded as endorsement of blocking a speaker [...]
Students' Responses to Objectionable Political View
Liberal Moderate Conservative

Create an obstruction, such that a campus speaker endorsing this idea could not address an audience.
19.2% 3.3% 3.0%
Form a picket line to block students from entering an event where a speaker will argue for this idea.
18.7% 2.7% 1.0%
Write graffiti on the dorm room of a student who endorses
this idea.
1.5% 1.1% 0.5%
Write graffiti on the office of a faculty member who
endorses this idea.
3.2% 0.0% 1.0%
Yell profanity at a student who endorses this idea as he or
she walks across campus.
3.5% 0.0% 0.5%
Shove a student who endorses this idea when they are
speaking about it outside on campus. 1.5% 0.5% 1.0%'

https://fecdsurveyre...sion-Report.pdf

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'UNT's Journal of Schenkerian Studies is under investigation following calls from around the country for it to be shuttered and for one of its advisers, UNT music theory professor Timothy Jackson, to be fired. The journal's sin? Following criticism by scholar Philip Ewell that 19th century music theorist Heinrich Schenker, whose influence on music theory is "hard to overstate," was an "ardent racist and German nationalist," the journal presented an edition including debate among scholars on racial issues and music theory.

The issue led a group of graduate students [...to call] for the journal to be dissolved, Jackson investigated and potentially fired from his teaching position, an anonymous contributor to be unmasked, and the issue to be publicly condemned by the university.

[...] "Each of us holds views that someone else would deem controversial. If we don't see our own freedom as threatened by this situation and the countless others like it, that freedom will perish swiftly and silently."

The graduate students claimed that Jackson had used the journal "to promote racism" by defending the music theorist after Ewell wrote that Schenker's "racist views infected his music theoretical arguments." Jackson's article, one of several defending the composer in the 2019 edition of the journal, contextualized Schenker and his changing views on race, which were partially due to the rise of Nazi Germany. (Schenker was Jewish; his wife was arrested by the Nazi regime and died in Theresienstadt concentration camp.)

[...] after receiving similar calls for investigation and punishment from a group of faculty members, Richmond announced "a formal investigation" into the journal.

[...] "Students and faculty can challenge the journal's assertions and criticize Schenker as much as they want, and the journal is free to resolve internal disputes as it pleases — and we'll defend its right to do so," said Lindsie Rank, author of FIRE's letter. "But UNT is violating core principles of academic and editorial freedom — and the First Amendment — by initiating an investigation into the journal. Rigorous debate and discussion, not administrative censorship, is how we find truth."'

https://www.thefire....racism-charges/

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 06 August 2020 - 06:58 PM

[Malankazooie]

#FireGinaCarano had to enter my orbit of awareness this morning. And you know what, I don't give a shit.

But I guess Star Wars booger eaters are all jittery anxiety in their cry closets and are clutching extra tight to their emotional support platypus about it. The company that owns that shit turns a blind eye to genocide concentration camps in China, maybe you should be more upset about that?

[Aptorian]

What are you talking about?

[amphibian]

Gina Carano is an actor on the Mandalorian. She's hot, she's good at action things, and she's also kinda a QAnon person who talks about it on her social media.

MMA and the sports that compose it (BJJ, striking sports, and wrestling) have a huge problem with the people in them being really prone to falling for and believing heavily in the QAnon stuff. There's a huge element of self reliance, distrust of government, pushing bizarre agendas despite the weight of evidence etc that leads to dumb shit like what Carano is saying over and over.

So is spouting Q nonsense worth demanding that the Mandalorian fire her? I dunno about a firing.. but I kinda agree that she shouldn't be kept on a show if she keeps saying stuff like that. But equating it to the Chinese repression and fitful genocide of the Uighurs is really a stretch.

I think I end up in the realm of "tell her to knock it off, no Q stuff publicly or in her social media" and then fire her if she doesn't abide by that.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Baby Yoda Canceled Amid Accusations of Genocide

[...] Baby Yoda, who one year ago today cozied into the hearts of Star Wars fans with his bottomless eyes, fuzzy head, and adorable cooing, has invoked genuine social media wrath for last week's episode of The Mandalorian, in which the mystical infant remorselessly snacked on the eggs of an endangered galactic species.

Whether this is serious or silly depends, as Obi-Wan Kenobi would put it, on "a certain point of view."

[...] a contingent of fans on Twitter has taken the actions seriously, expressing anger and sadness that the series would make light of something that is both a personal invasion and a potential extinction-level event.

[...] Still others expressed disgust that a toy featuring Baby Yoda and the eggs is being sold. "It concerns me that The Child's appetite might lead to the end of a family line (or maybe the extinction of a species IDK). But hey the kid is adorable, so here's a POP celebrating that genocide"'

https://www.vanityfa.../baby-yoda-eggs

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 16 November 2020 - 09:45 PM

[Maark Abbott]

amphibian, on 16 November 2020 - 09:08 PM, said:

Gina Carano is an actor on the Mandalorian. She's hot, she's good at action things, and she's also kinda a QAnon person who talks about it on her social media.

MMA and the sports that compose it (BJJ, striking sports, and wrestling) have a huge problem with the people in them being really prone to falling for and believing heavily in the QAnon stuff. There's a huge element of self reliance, distrust of government, pushing bizarre agendas despite the weight of evidence etc that leads to dumb shit like what Carano is saying over and over.

So is spouting Q nonsense worth demanding that the Mandalorian fire her? I dunno about a firing.. but I kinda agree that she shouldn't be kept on a show if she keeps saying stuff like that. But equating it to the Chinese repression and fitful genocide of the Uighurs is really a stretch.

I think I end up in the realm of "tell her to knock it off, no Q stuff publicly or in her social media" and then fire her if she doesn't abide by that.

I'm seeing it more as a resignation in that a company whose live action adaptation of one of their popular animated films contained an unedited Uighur concentration camp in shot about half a mile from the filming location probably wouldn't care about a QAnon moron spouting stupidity whilst on their payroll.

[Tsundoku]

Maark Abbott, on 20 November 2020 - 08:46 AM, said:

amphibian, on 16 November 2020 - 09:08 PM, said:

Gina Carano is an actor on the Mandalorian. She's hot, she's good at action things, and she's also kinda a QAnon person who talks about it on her social media.

MMA and the sports that compose it (BJJ, striking sports, and wrestling) have a huge problem with the people in them being really prone to falling for and believing heavily in the QAnon stuff. There's a huge element of self reliance, distrust of government, pushing bizarre agendas despite the weight of evidence etc that leads to dumb shit like what Carano is saying over and over.

So is spouting Q nonsense worth demanding that the Mandalorian fire her? I dunno about a firing.. but I kinda agree that she shouldn't be kept on a show if she keeps saying stuff like that. But equating it to the Chinese repression and fitful genocide of the Uighurs is really a stretch.

I think I end up in the realm of "tell her to knock it off, no Q stuff publicly or in her social media" and then fire her if she doesn't abide by that.

I'm seeing it more as a resignation in that a company whose live action adaptation of one of their popular animated films contained an unedited Uighur concentration camp in shot about half a mile from the filming location probably wouldn't care about a QAnon moron spouting stupidity whilst on their payroll.

Pardon? I haven't watched it but whaaaaaaaat?

[Aptorian]

Maark is spouting some typical western bullshit propaganda about the totally cool and totally legal "re-patriotation" schools where millions of Uigurs get to learn all kinds of very true information about China and the Chinese party.

[Tsundoku]

I'm just wondering about the camp-in-the-movie part.

[amphibian]

Tsundoku, on 20 November 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

I'm just wondering about the camp-in-the-movie part.

I haven't seen it, so all I can do is tell you that some people say there's a scene in the live action Mulan where she's running on rooftops where the camp may be visible for a short time off to the side.

The film may have been edited after release to blur that out. I can't confirm either way.

What is definitely true is that the movie was filmed very close to many Uighur detention camps and the uncomfortable reality is that Disney did little to nothing to make life better for the Uighurs or to speak up about how it's evil to treat them like that.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 20 November 2020 - 05:06 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 20 November 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

I'm just wondering about the camp-in-the-movie part.

I haven't seen it, so all I can do is tell you that some people say there's a scene in the live action Mulan where she's running on rooftops where the camp may be visible for a short time off to the side.

The film may have been edited after release to blur that out. I can't confirm either way.

What is definitely true is that the movie was filmed very close to many Uighur detention camps and the uncomfortable reality is that Disney did little to nothing to make life better for the Uighurs or to speak up about how it's evil to treat them like that.

On Disney's Mulan:

'The most recent addition to this growing list concerns the PRC's seeming campaign to violate cultural rights, legal treaties, and history itself within their autonomous region of Inner Mongolia.

In increased attempts to force ethnic minority assimilation to the majority Han Chinese culture under Chinese borders, the People's Republic has implemented a new policy replacing the 800-year-old Mongolian-language within Inner Mongolian school textbooks, with Chinese Mandarin. This same policy was enacted in the autonomous regions of Tibet and Xinjiang in 2017, "where the elimination of local languages in schools have been followed within two decades by forced cultural assimilation and labor camps, as China sheds decades of sponsoring independent ethnicities to bring them under the One China model."

As a result, China's new policy has caused mass protests across Inner Mongolia in response, from school children protesting with chants of "Our mother language is Mongolian!" and "We are Mongolian until death!" to parents attempting to pull their children from schools that have caused clashes with police. In one instance, it's been reported that a student passed away after leaping from a fourth-floor window of a boarding school near the city of Tongliao, as their parents and police scuffled outside.

Across this region, parents and students have refused to attend classes and at least 130 people have already been detained or arrested in response to the protests and "an estimated 8,000-10,000 [ethnic] Mongolians have been placed under some form of police custody since late August," [...] which has included elderly people, pregnant women, and middle school students. Police have even entered Mongolian homes and gone as far as "making them sign pledges to not speak against the bilingual program anymore," [...] as fears of cultural genocide spread across Inner Mongolia.

One prominent example of how this Han influence has impacted Mongolian culture globally is Disney's Mulan. The real Mulan was from the Northern Wei region and of Turco-Mongolic descent, not Han Chinese.

The Northern Wei dynasty was established by a formerly nomadic group named the Tuoba, a clan of the Xianbei people, who came from northern China and likely spoke either a Turkic or proto-Mongolian language, rather than a native Chinese dialect… "The emperor is an important person in [The Ballad of Mulan], but he's not called by his Chinese name," says Chen. Rather than the Chinese title of Huangdi, the emperor is referred to as "Khan," "Kehan" or "Kaghan," depending on the translation—a title used to refer to Genghis Khan and other Mongol leaders. Chen also says that the title of the poem and the fact that it is named for the female character reflects the respected status that women held in these nomadic societies…Over time, the story and character's nomadic and tribal origins have significantly changed from the original. Mulan has been depicted as Han Chinese in adaptations over the last century, and this process of "sinification," or coming under the influence of Han Chinese culture."'

https://www.bloodyel...-inner-mongolia

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 20 November 2020 - 05:19 PM

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 16 November 2020 - 09:08 PM, said:

Gina Carano is an actor on the Mandalorian. She's hot, she's good at action things, and she's also kinda a QAnon person who talks about it on her social media.

MMA and the sports that compose it (BJJ, striking sports, and wrestling) have a huge problem with the people in them being really prone to falling for and believing heavily in the QAnon stuff. There's a huge element of self reliance, distrust of government, pushing bizarre agendas despite the weight of evidence etc that leads to dumb shit like what Carano is saying over and over.

So is spouting Q nonsense worth demanding that the Mandalorian fire her? I dunno about a firing.. but I kinda agree that she shouldn't be kept on a show if she keeps saying stuff like that. But equating it to the Chinese repression and fitful genocide of the Uighurs is really a stretch.

I think I end up in the realm of "tell her to knock it off, no Q stuff publicly or in her social media" and then fire her if she doesn't abide by that.

Honestly, she even jumped ship to Parler...the right wing "Safest Spacest Shit Ever App" that they went to after they decided that being fact checked by Twitter and FB for conspiracy theory BS was too much for them to handle (funny sidebar, I heard that a. bunch of Camgirls went en masse into parter and took over the right wing hashtags with nudey shots to ruin the safe space....)...

The show doesn't need her if you real life actions are "using her celebrity voice" to *checks notes* dismiss trans people, and participate in mass Trump and right wing delusions...

Just ditch her and cast someone else.

[amphibian]

I'm somewhat for the removal of QAnon people from workplaces, yet aware that the way Hollywood works to preserve existing power structures and casts is not friendly to the idea of removing Carano.

This especially kind of sucks because I'm friends with Julie Kedzie, who fought Carano years ago and there was a lot of mutual support between the two as women fighters. Julie has been super vocal about the heartbreak of realizing that so many of her training partners and opponents were and are shitheads in this way. Carano being a shithead actively hurts my friend due to their previous long time connections, which are now severed.

That's my personal connection to this story.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Forgot to include this: '“The government is taking the land and erasing Mongolian culture entirely, except to have it become a show you’ll see at new tourist attractions they plan to build.”'

Disneyfication....

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 20 November 2020 - 05:48 PM, said:

I'm somewhat for the removal of QAnon people from workplaces, yet aware that the way Hollywood works to preserve existing power structures and casts is not friendly to the idea of removing Carano.

This especially kind of sucks because I'm friends with Julie Kedzie, who fought Carano years ago and there was a lot of mutual support between the two as women fighters. Julie has been super vocal about the heartbreak of realizing that so many of her training partners and opponents were and are shitheads in this way. Carano being a shithead actively hurts my friend due to their previous long time connections, which are now severed.

That's my personal connection to this story.

Yeah, that's gotta be a bitter pill to swallow with former friends/allies in her career that affect her now.

Brutal.

[QuickTidal]

Speaking about Gina Carano....Parler was apparently hacked and some 5000 accounts, DMs and all of some "well known figures" have been taken...

What are the odds she has some bad DMs in her account and those will see the light of day and Disney will drop her like a hot potato. I would say "high". Either way, a lot of more famous people are all of the sudden going to claim they don't have a Parler account and there are imposters out there...It's like Ashley Madison leak for Nazis!

 Pler.jpg (99.25K)
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