[QuickTidal]

Oh, and Cdn Sci-Fi author Robert J. Sawyer posted this about the Hugos and Microagressions:

And Erikson reposted it to his Facebook too. Steven didn't post any thoughts about the post, so I'd love to hear what he has to say.

[Tiste Simeon]

Tsundoku, on 04 August 2020 - 08:33 AM, said:

Both far ends of the political spectrum (if indeed there are only two) wish to use authoritarianism to propagate and enforce what are essentially opinions.
Not so different, or surprising.

I like to imagine a world without any of them. It's nice and quiet.

Yes one side wants to end intolerance and the other wants to commit genocide, it's hard to tell the difference really...

[Aptorian]

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 04 August 2020 - 08:33 AM, said:

Both far ends of the political spectrum (if indeed there are only two) wish to use authoritarianism to propagate and enforce what are essentially opinions.
Not so different, or surprising.

I like to imagine a world without any of them. It's nice and quiet.

Yes one side wants to end intolerance and the other wants to commit genocide, it's hard to tell the difference really...

Spoken like somebody on the far side of this theoretical spectrum.

Recent studies in Denmark have shown that people on the left are far less tolerant of people with opposing views than people on the right. For example, in one survey when a person was asked how they would feel about being neighbours with somebody who votes to the right or left of their political beliefs, the people representing the left wing were far less tolerant than the people on the right. This wasn't about far left or far right politics, mind you. Just politics in general.

[Tiste Simeon]

I'll grant it's a vast oversimplification and I was mostly being facetious but historically I'm not that far off.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 08:24 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 04 August 2020 - 08:33 AM, said:

Both far ends of the political spectrum (if indeed there are only two) wish to use authoritarianism to propagate and enforce what are essentially opinions.
Not so different, or surprising.

I like to imagine a world without any of them. It's nice and quiet.

Yes one side wants to end intolerance and the other wants to commit genocide, it's hard to tell the difference really...

Spoken like somebody on the far side of this theoretical spectrum.

Recent studies in Denmark have shown that people on the left are far less tolerant of people with opposing views than people on the right. For example, in one survey when a person was asked how they would feel about being neighbours with somebody who votes to the right or left of their political beliefs, the people representing the left wing were far less tolerant than the people on the right. This wasn't about far left or far right politics, mind you. Just politics in general.

seems very reasonable as to why someone would object to living next to someone who is amongst other things:

Homophobic.
Denies systemic racism
Thinks notions about a soul and redemption that are particular to an individual form a sound basis for public policy such as the lack of autonomy women have over their bodies.
I could go on and on... But i think you get the point... If by right you just mean someone who wants more individual freedom, thats all fine and dandy... but given how the tories in my country represent people who hold onto these ideas... yeah not a fan in the slightest.

Granted part of the problem is right and left are very ambiguous terms... largely due to the fact that a single axis does not create an accurate depiction of someones beliefs. Many people who are left leaning could have beliefs that are anathema one to another.

[amphibian]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 08:24 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 04 August 2020 - 08:33 AM, said:

Both far ends of the political spectrum (if indeed there are only two) wish to use authoritarianism to propagate and enforce what are essentially opinions.
Not so different, or surprising.

I like to imagine a world without any of them. It's nice and quiet.

Yes one side wants to end intolerance and the other wants to commit genocide, it's hard to tell the difference really...

Spoken like somebody on the far side of this theoretical spectrum.

Recent studies in Denmark have shown that people on the left are far less tolerant of people with opposing views than people on the right. For example, in one survey when a person was asked how they would feel about being neighbours with somebody who votes to the right or left of their political beliefs, the people representing the left wing were far less tolerant than the people on the right. This wasn't about far left or far right politics, mind you. Just politics in general.

We are seeing police happily maim protestors who are asking to not be murdered or maimed or to have black people imprisoned at rates far, far above what non-racist policing would statistically show.

We are seeing a president and GOP strip LGTBQ+ rights happily. We are seeing in many states the closures of family planning clinics because they sometimes do abortions.

We are seeing and hearing a president say racist things every day and dozens of stumbling initiatives to "expel" others.

We have seen that the president's son in law re routed COVID-19 aid away from states with Democratic governors in order to "stick it to them politically". https://www.vanityfa...f-into-thin-air

Debate is possible, but for people like Trump, McConnell, and Stephen Miller they don't view the right to exist or have similar access as a default thing for everyone. In effect, that means minorities and the poorest get hurt in a hundred different ways and so many of them end in debilitating poverty and/or death.

It might not be genocide as in the direct mass murder with guns and bombs - that's Yemen - but what evil is occurring is being experienced mostly by the poor and/or the people with non-white skin color. And it's purposely that way because of the continuous decisions of many of these power wielders.

So I can forgive a "this is genocide" line because there's 200,000+ excess deaths right now due to COVID-19 and millions of people in Great Depression level financial straits and millions facing eviction, food insecurity, and the crushing decision of "do I send my child or children back to school when it's not safe to do so?"

This is so fucked up that calling the people advocating for exactly the above to keep happening something as mundane as "another end of the political spectrum" is an injustice. These people are advocating for death.

What reaction is appropriate to this?

[Aptorian]

I've traded these same opinions with several forum members the past couple of years - I understand that witnessing what is going on with America's right wing is antagonizing and frustrating but having right wing beliefs is not the same as being pro-trump, or pro-facism or what ever. It's more complicated than that.

And every time somebody on the left accuses some body on the right of supporting massmurder, or Nazis or racism/misogyny/bigotry in general, etc. You're only reinforcing their belief that liberals are a bunch of self-righteous assholes.

I don't know what the solution is but feeding into the culture and class warfare that the GOP has fostered isn't going to make the world a better place.

[amphibian]

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 05 August 2020 - 03:13 PM

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

I've traded these same opinions with several forum members the past couple of years - I understand that witnessing what is going on with America's right wing is antagonizing and frustrating but having right wing beliefs is not the same as being pro-trump, or pro-facism or what ever. It's more complicated than that.

And every time somebody on the left accuses some body on the right of supporting massmurder, or Nazis or racism/misogyny/bigotry in general, etc. You're only reinforcing their belief that liberals are a bunch of self-righteous assholes.

I don't know what the solution is but feeding into the culture and class warfare that the GOP has fostered isn't going to make the world a better place.

I think the divide comes from the Right in large quantities and qualities leaving the original tenets of the political side behind a long time ago in favour of extremes.

In Canada, for example, 'The Right' USED to mean fiscally responsible, a little more traditionalist (nuclear family, whathaveyou)...something my whole family prescribed to (including my dad) barring myself I've been a Lefty since I was a teen....as that line shifted hard to the far right over the last 2-3 decades, my dad has shifted more towards me and into an NDP mode (our most progressive party)...but the whole rest of my family (extended included) has remained in the Right to start spouting the nonsense of the far right...or really what the Right stands for NOW as opposed to in the 1970's and part of the 80's.

In the states, I imagine this is even more extreme...but the point is that the Right as it stands now DOES stand for Trump. Because they have nothing left to cling to. The Raft is not the Republican Raft anymore, it's the Trump Raft and it's win or bust. As such, the Right wanting to "discuss" means a bunch of baggage that they have to drag along, none of which is progressive, and most of which is actively detrimental to POC, LGBTQ, and anyone non-white...So when you view it through that lens, it's hard to see any discussion from the Right as "good faith"

Add in the anti-intellectualism that the gOP have fostered in the states, and you have a boiling pot of shit to argue with...and it's never ever worth it.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

I've traded these same opinions with several forum members the past couple of years - I understand that witnessing what is going on with America's right wing is antagonizing and frustrating but having right wing beliefs is not the same as being pro-trump, or pro-facism or what ever. It's more complicated than that.

And every time somebody on the left accuses some body on the right of supporting massmurder, or Nazis or racism/misogyny/bigotry in general, etc. You're only reinforcing their belief that liberals are a bunch of self-righteous assholes.

I don't know what the solution is but feeding into the culture and class warfare that the GOP has fostered isn't going to make the world a better place.

Im fully aware that by definition, right wing or conservative simply means and adherance to old principles. Cato was a conservative and opposed Caeser's Tyranny. In 1800s, the conservative faction in france were the royalists who wanted to preserve the Monarchy.

however in current day Canada, the conservative party is the exact same party whose principles include what i have outlined above. Principles that are anti-humanistic. As such i find offensive that someone would align themselves with a party whose chosen MP for the issue of gay rights find it abhorrent how gay people lead "Promiscuous lifestyles" that they do not approve of. What consenting adults do and don't do in their spare time is of no one else's concern, yet the party that would paint itself as being anti-authoritarian in nature, is most certainly very authoritative when it comes to determining how others should live their lives.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

In many cases it's very possible. For example, when prejudiced people have a conversation with someone from a group that they've dehumanized or demonized, they often find them far less 'monstrous' and more relatable than they would have expected.

'No, Wait, Short Conversations Really Can Reduce Prejudice

A new study redeems a remarkably successful canvassing approach that was rocked by scientific fraud last year.

[...] found that both transgender and non-transgender canvassers could change minds.'

https://www.theatlan...ejudice/477105/

https://www.research...door_canvassing

'How to talk someone out of bigotry

These scientists keep proving that reducing prejudice is possible. It's just not easy.

It's not easy to confront people whose votes would seek to hurt you, and then try to change their minds. "I came out two years ago now, and one of the hardest things for me has been talking with folks who don't understand [gender identity], and not immediately writing someone off because they don't immediately get it," Topping says.

Topping calls this "giving them grace." It's a powerful idea: "Giving grace ... means being able to hear someone say something that can be hurtful, and trying to think about how to have a real conversation and connect with them."

Massachusetts voters chose to protect trans rights, and Topping believes deep canvassing helped. "This tactic is the only thing that has been proven to work on nondiscrimination, so without it we wouldn't have been able to win," they say.

New research tells us changing minds with deep canvassing is not impossible; it's just very hard. The payoffs are small and incremental, but they are real.'

https://www.vox.com/...deep-canvassing

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 05 August 2020 - 04:34 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'“I think in today’s world, many communities have a call-out culture,” says David Broockman, a UC Berkeley political scientist who has run these experiments with Josh Kalla, a political scientist at Yale University. “Twitter is obviously full of the notion that what we should do is condemn those who disagree with us. What we can now say experimentally, the key to the success of these conversations is doing the exact opposite of that.”'

https://www.vox.com/...deep-canvassing

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.

[QuickTidal]

For love and patience to work, the other side needs to be AT least amenable to the notion that they might be wrong or misguided.

I can have a 'Road to Damascus' moment in my thinking (It's happened a BUNCH of times over the years; I'll freely cop to that)...because I'm willing to have those discussions, listen to the other viewpoints, and ponder what they said from their side.

So much of the Right these days simply refuses to acknowledge that the discussion needs to be had...they simply believe they are infallibly right, and everything else is bullshit or whining. Does anyone think that Ben Shapiro is going to have a good faith conversation with anyone without loading it first with his own side being "unequivocally right"? Like that time he was on a British news program and he got so put in his place about his bullshittery that he called Andrew Neil (the Rightest of Right wingers) a lefty. That's the level you're seeing operated on. They are right, you are wrong, and the discussion they want to have is not about seeing your POV and helping them see yours...they are a cult hell bent on making YOU see their way is right, and there is no middle ground to them. They don't give a flying shit about the Left side or understanding it.

I'll give you an example from my own experience. I thought I understood my own white privilege (I mean, I'm mildly mixed race and not exclusively white, but for all intents and purposes I'm white and only ever suffered brief/mild racism in high school when the Neo-Nazi's found out I was part Japanese) back around Ferguson. It turns out I most CERTAINLY did not. I thought privilege was tied to class strata, and social status...

...And then I heard a story that 180'ed my views and helped me really understand.

A black man gets into his car with his white friend...he begins pulling out his license and registration and putting them in the visor above his driver seat head before he starts the car. His white friend asks "What the heck are you doing?"...and black friend replies that if he's pulled over (more likely WHEN) he doesn't want to be seen as "reaching" for anything by the police. The white friend says "I've never once had to think about that when I got into my car to drive somewhere"

THAT is white privilege. It's due to the simple fact of having a different skin colour sets you into an automatic different lane of life. And when that lane is the white lane, it's easier because you don't have to think like POC do about such humdrum daily activities as driving somewhere. Recognizing that is a huge part in understanding the issues that affect POC and in Canada especially the indigenous population.

But the Right doesn't care about that sort of learning. They don't want to accept another POV.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 05 August 2020 - 05:21 PM, said:

For love and patience to work, the other side needs to be AT least amenable to the notion that they might be wrong or misguided.

I can have a 'Road to Damascus' moment in my thinking (It's happened a BUNCH of times over the years; I'll freely cop to that)...because I'm willing to have those discussions, listen to the other viewpoints, and ponder what they said from their side.

So much of the Right these days simply refuses to acknowledge that the discussion needs to be had...they simply believe they are infallibly right, and everything else is bullshit or whining. Does anyone think that Ben Shapiro is going to have a good faith conversation with anyone without loading it first with his own side being "unequivocally right"? Like that time he was on a British news program and he got so put in his place about his bullshittery that he called Andrew Neil (the Rightest of Right wingers) a lefty. That's the level you're seeing operated on. They are right, you are wrong, and the discussion they want to have is not about seeing your POV and helping them see yours...they are a cult hell bent on making YOU see their way is right, and there is no middle ground to them. They don't give a flying shit about the Left side or understanding it.

I'll give you an example from my own experience. I thought I understood my own white privilege (I mean, I'm mildly mixed race and not exclusively white, but for all intents and purposes I'm white and only ever suffered brief/mild racism in high school when the Neo-Nazi's found out I was part Japanese) back around Ferguson. It turns out I most CERTAINLY did not. I thought privilege was tied to class strata, and social status...

...And then I heard a story that 180'ed my views and helped me really understand.

A black man gets into his car with his white friend...he begins pulling out his license and registration and putting them in the visor above his driver seat head before he starts the car. His white friend asks "What the heck are you doing?"...and black friend replies that if he's pulled over (more likely WHEN) he doesn't want to be seen as "reaching" for anything by the police. The white friend says "I've never once had to think about that when I got into my car to drive somewhere"

THAT is white privilege. It's due to the simple fact of having a different skin colour sets you into an automatic different lane of life. And when that lane is the white lane, it's easier because you don't have to think like POC do about such humdrum daily activities as driving somewhere. Recognizing that is a huge part in understanding the issues that affect POC and in Canada especially the indigenous population.

But the Right doesn't care about that sort of learning. They don't want to accept another POV.

Eeeehhh. I get your point but I could give you a different anecdote.

When I went to elementary school, my school was situated next to the Turkish ghetto. About half the kids in my school were of Middle Eastern descent, Turks, Iranians, Iraqis, later on in the early 90s we also got an influx of Bosnian and Ethiopian refugees. Those kids of foreign descent were fucking assholes. As they grew into their teens they became increasingly more aggressive, macho and cruel. They hung out in groups and would pick on who ever they fancied. I had to run or fight my way to the local Youth club a lot because you'd overhear them planning who to jump after school.

Now, if it wasn't those brown kids, there'd probably been a gang of ethnic Danish assholes instead but this is a story a lot of white, middle class Danes can recognise from their childhood and teens and hasn't changed to this day. It's probably gotten worse in some cases because actual gangs of Middle Eastern descent have formed in the past 30 years around the countries cities.

Before the Corona virus I dealt with these same type of kids on a monthly, weekly, some times daily basis at my Library, which is situated in a poorer part of Copenhagen. We'd get harassed, threatened - over a dozen kids would sometimes show up after one of them got kicked out, preventing us from going home. The police would get called but the kids would just laugh at them and taunt them. You'd want to punch their teeth down their throat but many of them have family in the local gangs.

Sometimes the actual gang members do show up in and around the library and sell drugs or get into threatening arguments with the civic service center because they're not getting their social security or what ever.

I can't tell you how many times I've been out on the town or at a private party where an individual or a group of brown people have shown up and been threatening or gotten into a fight.

Now what's the point of all these anecdotes?

I've had plenty of negative experiences with brown people to form a very cynical and dismissive opinion of the immigrants and second and third generation of immigrant laborers in my country.

I don't feel that way though. I'm well educated enough to know that these forms of behaviour are artifacts of Islamic culture, poverty, being isolated for political reasons and regular youthful idiocy that many eventually grow out of.

However I can easily imagine how much more colored the view of the Danish police becomes when they day out and day in get called out to handle fights, robberies, petty theft and other crimes that are over represented by ethnically foreign people in Denmark's criminal statistics.
You remember all those times you had to call back-up because these people "don't respect your authority".

I know I sometimes start to be a bit more on guard when I notice a different skin color, when you see this kid is wearing a cap and a hoodie, you cross the street or tense up when you pass a group of brown men who are walking by perhaps. I sometimes clutch my metaphorical pearls.

These kinds of experiences lead to racial profiling, which leads to discrimination, which feeds into the circle of feeling victimized and singled out, which leads to lashing out, etc.

This is a long-winded way of saying that racism and racial profiling doesn't just develop out of nothing.

When you say that the right don't care about "that kind of learning", maybe you should consider that there's a right wing POV you're not hearing?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 05 August 2020 - 06:21 PM

[Macros]

Appeasement of the right wing secured Chamberlain "peace in our team"

Fuck them

[Aptorian]

I've just noticed that my last two posts in this thread are me arguing on the side of right wing view points. Is this what happens when you grow old? Is this what I've become?

[King Lear]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.

What does supporting and protecting them involve?

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 06:21 PM, said:

When you say that the right don't care about "that kind of learning", maybe you should consider that there's a right wing POV you're not hearing?

I've yet to hear one that doesn't somehow tie into racism, colonialism, and othering.

[Aptorian]

King Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.

What does supporting and protecting them involve?

Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.