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Identity Politics

#241 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 06:33 PM

Appeasement of the right wing secured Chamberlain "peace in our team"

Fuck them
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#242 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 06:40 PM

I've just noticed that my last two posts in this thread are me arguing on the side of right wing view points. Is this what happens when you grow old? Is this what I've become?
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#243 User is offline   King Lear 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.


What does supporting and protecting them involve?
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#244 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 07:09 PM

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 06:21 PM, said:

When you say that the right don't care about "that kind of learning", maybe you should consider that there's a right wing POV you're not hearing?


I've yet to hear one that doesn't somehow tie into racism, colonialism, and othering.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
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#245 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 07:25 PM

View PostKing Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.


What does supporting and protecting them involve?


Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.
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#246 User is offline   King Lear 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 08:53 PM

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostKing Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.


What does supporting and protecting them involve?


Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.


But these are structural responses to what is being presented as an individual problem/solution. None of those things involve you or any of us supporting Amphibian who, on saying (I thought rhetorically, but I could be wrong - I doubt it though)

View Postamphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

(bolding mine)

And received a response that fundamentally boils down to 'try harder'.

I think it's a mistake to talk about this hypothetically when you're dealing with a real person who you have known for years saying "these people want to hurt me". I had a very visceral reaction to reading the conversation on this thread, and I can't help wondering what you would have or have felt if someone you'd known for a very long time said to you, on being told that the children and teenagers you were afraid of wanted to hurt you, 'have you tried reaching out to them'. And if you did try, or did want to try, what support would have helped child Apt or adult librarian Apt in way that actually felt useful?

This post has been edited by King Lear: 05 August 2020 - 08:53 PM

*Men's Frights Activist*
Ebenezar McCoy is my patronus
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#247 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 09:09 PM

View PostKing Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 08:53 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostKing Lear, on 05 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 05 August 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't know. It's easy to point out problems. It's hard to know how to fix it. If I was living in the US maybe I'd be sitting in a clock tower taking shots at people wearing red hats.

But I lean towards Azaths input. Unless you're ready for a war of annihilation, you defeat hatred and bigotry with love and patience. God knows I don't have the energy for that kind of business but other people do. Those are the people you support and protect.


What does supporting and protecting them involve?


Money? Time? Voting?

In the area where I work there's a lot of outreach and teamwork that goes into communicating with citizens in the local area. Local politicians work together with school leaders, police officers, religious leaders, youth councillors, etc. A lot of work goes into creating relationships with families and these people spend a lot of their free time and personal life making the community better.

That makes a difference. But it's not easy.


But these are structural responses to what is being presented as an individual problem/solution. None of those things involve you or any of us supporting Amphibian who, on saying (I thought rhetorically, but I could be wrong - I doubt it though)

View Postamphibian, on 05 August 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

How do I connect to someone who kinda doesn't believe that I should exist or be on equal footing with them and their direct actions make it harder and harder for me to live?

(bolding mine)

And received a response that fundamentally boils down to 'try harder'.

I think it's a mistake to talk about this hypothetically when you're dealing with a real person who you have known for years saying "these people want to hurt me". I had a very visceral reaction to reading the conversation on this thread, and I can't help wondering what you would have or have felt if someone you'd known for a very long time said to you, on being told that the children and teenagers you were afraid of wanted to hurt you, 'have you tried reaching out to them'. And if you did try, or did want to try, what support would have helped child Apt or adult librarian Apt in way that actually felt useful?



The question seemed to be how to connect (and, implicitly, whether it's possible), not whether it's worth the possible emotional stress.

However, the research cited in the articles I posted not only demonstrate that it's possible in many cases, but provide specific techniques that have been effective. (It also matches my limited personal experience, as well as many anecdotal accounts.)

There are practical and effective techniques for dealing with the emotional stress. The added questions of safety from physical violence (by others, not one's own brain) or discrimination are important, but should be assessed realistically, without catastrophizing.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 05 August 2020 - 09:17 PM

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#248 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 09:49 PM

In my experience, that reaching out has led to "oh you're one of the good ones, we still have all the bad ones over there".

To be clear, I mostly present as a white man - so I don't get nearly as much shit as my best friend, who is a Latina woman. And neither of us get as much shit combined as our other close friend, who is a black woman.

One of the reasons why this is so difficult is because even if I or my friends sit down with that super right wing person and convince them we're approximately equals, they're going right back to the same Fbook meme feeds, the same social circles that let them be as racist and classist as they want to, and the same television choices that reinforce the racism and classism.

The "turn a KKK member around by talking to them for a while" dynamic works in large part when that person is removed from their life - as in they're in jail or they've been pushed to move.

The reason why I know that this "just talk to them" approach doesn't work in my life or for me is because I've tried it with my best friend's brother in law and his brother and their buddies. I hung out with him socially from 2008 to about 2018 with decreasing amounts of time spent with him until I stopped seeing him or talking to him and his circles. The reason why that decline happened is because despite me putting in tons of work to find studies, to find articles, to simply talk to him about my experiences and those of others, he'd come right back the next day with more racist memes about guns and black on black crime. He fundamentally does not view me as equal, even though I look mostly white, because I have a disability (deafness) and because I'm a "liberal". This is a guy with one working lung, two children under six, a mother who is a cancer survivor, a brother who has brain cancer, and more yet he still refuses to wear a mask or stop going out socially.

He fundamentally cannot believe that I or my best friend (his wife's sister) have anything resembling a decent take on reality or expertise or even a point worth changing something in his life about. His brother is the same way despite being someone currently dying of brain cancer and lucky enough to not be bankrupted by medical bills due to good insurance through work.

Nothing gets through to them past a surface "oh, maybe that's true" level. Their lives are structured around maximizing their money + autonomy, having guns enough to scare people from "taking their shit", and being "strong".

It's been 12 years of having these people tangentially in my life and I can't say that we've made progress on any issues other than accepting homosexuality or bisexuality in others because his first cousin is a lesbian who came out in 2001.

There's no incentive for him to change if his own family and sometimes crappy situation doesn't make him want to change.
I survived the Permian and all I got was this t-shirt.
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#249 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 04:52 PM

'Tulane Canceled a Talk by the Author of an Acclaimed Anti-Racism Book After Students Said the Event Was "Violent"

In Life of a Klansman, Edward Ball reckons with a white supremacist ancestor. Try explaining that to the students.

The New York Times hailed it as "a haunting tapestry of interwoven stories that inform us not just about our past but about the resentment-bred demons that are all too present in our society today," and the anti-racism scholar Ibram X. Kendi participated in a virtual discussion about it with Ball. Tulane University was slated to host another such event, featuring Ball and Lydia Pelot-Hobbs, an assistant professor of geography and African American studies.

[...] the university opted to postpone it following blinkered outrage from students who insisted that the event was "not only inappropriate but violent towards the experience of Black people in the Tulane community and our country." Other members of the Tulane community called it "harmful and offensive," and demanded its cancellation. Still others said the university should apologize and take action against whoever approved the event.

[...] a casual observer might wonder whether they mistakenly thought the book was written by a Klansman, or endorsed the Klan. The comments on the event's announcement page—as well as statements by student government officials—make it abundantly clear this is not the case. They know exactly what the book's point of view is.

"The last thing we need to do is allow someone who is even reflecting on the hatred of their ancestors to speak about white supremacy, even if their efforts come from a place of accountability," one student wrote on Instagram.

"There is nothing that a book on white supremacy written by the descendant of a Klansman can do to promote or influence an anti-racism atmosphere," wrote another.

But this wasn't just random students leaving comments; Tulane's student government weighed in as well. In a letter to the administration "on behalf of the entire student body," [...] demanded the event's cancellation. And they did not mince words.

[...] The New Republic---currently one of the woke-est of the progressive magazines---wrote that Ball "builds a psychological portrait of white supremacy, which then radiates outward and across time, to explain the motives and historical background behind racist violence." Yet leaders of Tulane's student body think it is their solemn duty to prevent anyone from learning about this history.'

https://reason.com/2...tudents-racist/

Study:

'It was not our intention to choose items that most or typical liberal/conservative students at UNC hold, nor did we attempt to select the most extreme viewpoints in order to manufacture artificial controversy. Rather, we attempted to choose views that are genuinely controversial and that a critical mass of individuals on our campus really do hold. These are views that students will encounter as they navigate their academic and social lives.

[...] interrupting a speaker or blocking entrance to a campus event---have been used by groups around the country, but are generally prohibited by student conduct
codes, including UNC's.

[...] In the Feb. 5 draft of this report, this finding read, "Over 25% of students endorse blocking a speaker they disagree with." That statement accurately describes the proportion of students who selected "somewhat appropriate," "appropriate," or "entirely appropriate" in response to the "create obstruction" and "form a picket line" items below. However, Table 17 below reports proportions that are calculated in a more restrictive way: only "appropriate" and "entirely appropriate" are coded as endorsement of blocking a speaker [...]
Students' Responses to Objectionable Political View
Liberal Moderate Conservative

Create an obstruction, such that a campus speaker endorsing this idea could not address an audience.
19.2% 3.3% 3.0%
Form a picket line to block students from entering an event where a speaker will argue for this idea.
18.7% 2.7% 1.0%
Write graffiti on the dorm room of a student who endorses
this idea.
1.5% 1.1% 0.5%
Write graffiti on the office of a faculty member who
endorses this idea.
3.2% 0.0% 1.0%
Yell profanity at a student who endorses this idea as he or
she walks across campus.
3.5% 0.0% 0.5%
Shove a student who endorses this idea when they are
speaking about it outside on campus. 1.5% 0.5% 1.0%'

https://fecdsurveyre...sion-Report.pdf
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#250 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 06:57 PM

'UNT's Journal of Schenkerian Studies is under investigation following calls from around the country for it to be shuttered and for one of its advisers, UNT music theory professor Timothy Jackson, to be fired. The journal's sin? Following criticism by scholar Philip Ewell that 19th century music theorist Heinrich Schenker, whose influence on music theory is "hard to overstate," was an "ardent racist and German nationalist," the journal presented an edition including debate among scholars on racial issues and music theory.

The issue led a group of graduate students [...to call] for the journal to be dissolved, Jackson investigated and potentially fired from his teaching position, an anonymous contributor to be unmasked, and the issue to be publicly condemned by the university.

[...] "Each of us holds views that someone else would deem controversial. If we don't see our own freedom as threatened by this situation and the countless others like it, that freedom will perish swiftly and silently."

The graduate students claimed that Jackson had used the journal "to promote racism" by defending the music theorist after Ewell wrote that Schenker's "racist views infected his music theoretical arguments." Jackson's article, one of several defending the composer in the 2019 edition of the journal, contextualized Schenker and his changing views on race, which were partially due to the rise of Nazi Germany. (Schenker was Jewish; his wife was arrested by the Nazi regime and died in Theresienstadt concentration camp.)

[...] after receiving similar calls for investigation and punishment from a group of faculty members, Richmond announced "a formal investigation" into the journal.

[...] "Students and faculty can challenge the journal's assertions and criticize Schenker as much as they want, and the journal is free to resolve internal disputes as it pleases — and we'll defend its right to do so," said Lindsie Rank, author of FIRE's letter. "But UNT is violating core principles of academic and editorial freedom — and the First Amendment — by initiating an investigation into the journal. Rigorous debate and discussion, not administrative censorship, is how we find truth."'

https://www.thefire....racism-charges/

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 06 August 2020 - 06:58 PM

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