[Lady Bliss]

I guess I’ll just never get it. I grew up as Genx goth, so I knew a lot of gay, trans friends. They went through lots of abuse by their own families and “society”. I would never wish that on anyone. If my kids need to make a life decision I would rather support them 100% than lose them.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

All of these paradoxes make more sense when you realize that for a lot of conservative Protestants, rigid gender roles are not just the traditional default, but a commandment upon which all of creation rests—more important, in practice if not on paper, than the Ten Commandments, including loving God and neighbor. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor [...] has said that complementarity—the belief that God assigns different, “complementary” roles to men and women through biology—is like gravity in a story about a plane crash: the force that makes everything possible and gives life meaning. In the same book, STBS President Albert Mohler calls gender complementarity “the Bible’s most fundamental revelation about what it means to be human.”

[...] for some evangelicals at least, gender “play” is possible—in private—so long as the wife affirms that the husband is a “real man,” and man and woman unite in monogamous, heterosexual matrimony. What a married Christian couple does in their bedroom is nobody else’s business, because God says so.

[...] Given these findings, it makes sense that conservative lawmakers see drag as inevitably “sexualizing,” even when their performances involve merely reading Green Eggs and Ham to a room full of children. The problem with drag shows for conservative evangelicals is that they are public displays of gender[...] that challenge immutable gender difference rather than affirming it. For people who think gender is something that God sends people to hell over, it’s not something to play with at all—at least, not outside of the marital bedroom. And that’s a big part of the supposed “threat” of Drag Story Hour events, that kids will learn that gender isn’t inherently sexual, that they can play with it too.

Evangelical Christian drag obsession: Why are conservatives so disturbed by the queer art form? (slate.com)

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Almost missed this correction (seems to have been reported much less prominently than the initial story, at least in the non-right-wing-media):

Quote

'Citi Bike Karen' viral video shows why we shouldn't rush to judgment

For almost a week [...] “Citi Bike Karen” was the face of American racism. A white pregnant physician’s assistant caught on video arguing with a group of Black men about who had the right to a rented bike, Sarah Comrie was crying and yelling for help[...] racking up national media coverage and over 40 million views.

[...] Comrie was doxxed, put on leave by her employer and accused by civil rights attorney Ben Crump of “weaponiz(ing) her tears” in ways that “endangered” the men in the video.

[...] went viral not for its accuracy, but because it fit many people’s preconceived notions about race in America. It turns out that Comrie was the victim – and the person with the right to the bike[...]

[...] confirmed that the receipt matched the rental code on the bike, causing NBC News to update its original story and Crump to delete his tweet. [...]

All of us can take three steps to overcome confirmation bias and easy access to social media from endangering people and making ourselves look like fools. The first is to slow down and think critically when we read something that perfectly fits our worldview. Second, we must wait for all the facts to come out and look for original sources. Third – and hardest of all – let the evidence dictate our opinion, not the other way around.

'Citi Bike Karen' viral video shows why we shouldn't rush to judgment

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Now Far-Right Nutters Want to Boycott… Chick-Fil-A

[...] have gone ballistic over [homophobic evangelical Christian] fast food chain Chick-fil-A hiring a director of diversity, who just so happens to be Black.

[...] after discovering a months-old update on Chick-fil-A’s website about diversity and inclusion initiatives.

[...]

“Everything good must come to an end,” [...] “Here @Chickfila is stating it’s [sic] commitment to systemic racism, sexism, and discrimination. I cannot support such a thing.”

[...] “It’s only a matter of time until they start putting tranny semen in the frosted lemonade at this point,” [...]

“Chick-Fil-A CEO Dan Cathy says ALL whites should get on their knees and shine black peoples’ shoes with ‘a sense of shame, a sense of embarrassment,’”

Now Far-Right Nutters Want to Boycott Chick-Fil-A (thedailybeast.com)

Trump Rooster only for them then....

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Terms like 'biological female' are rejected by the major medical groups representing doctors and psychiatrists. Gender is part of a spectrum, and goes beyond biology, those groups argue.

'A lot to handle': Cincinnati professor at center of 'biological women' TikTok controversy speaks out (msn.com)

But the link that the article cites for that says:

Quote

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one's biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender? < Yale School of Medicine

And doesn't ever mention 'biological woman', which is the phrase the professor failed the student's final project for using (the subject of the article---the professor explains that the student was given extra time to resubmit but refused).

Isn't the idea that 'woman' should refer to culturally constructed gender whereas 'female' should refer to biological sex? So 'women's reproductive health' should be renamed 'female reproductive health' or 'cis women's reproductive health', etc.? OTOH I guess with the hormones there's some overlap between trans women's health and cis women's health.

Hopefully AI is smart enough by now to automatically change instances of 'woman' to 'cis woman', 'female', or 'person with a uterus' etc. as appropriate in electronic texts.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 15 June 2023 - 04:28 PM

[Gorefest]

Azath Vitr (D said:

Isn't the idea that 'woman' should refer to culturally constructed gender whereas 'female' should refer to biological sex?

Not sure how this would work. For instance, in Dutch, there is no separate word for woman and female. There is only 'vrouw'/'vrouwelijk'. This seems to be more a debate on semantics than on content.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Turns out some medical organizations do avoid the term 'biological female':

Quote

Biological male/female (see assigned male/female at birth) (noun) – We avoid using the phrases "biological male" and "biological female" because they may not accurately describe a person's physical sex characteristics, and more importantly, they may not reflect how a person identifies in regard to their gender

Glossary-2018-English-update-1.pdf (ksbreastfeeding.org)

And some transgender people on Reddit find 'biological male' transphobic:

Quote

Yes. It's just a somewhat socially accepted way to call us men. [...]


Its BS is what it is. I think it is a transphobic way to say we are male hiding behind their "beloved" biology ideas. [...]

[...] assigned X (at birth) is the standard. [...]


[...] if you had nothing but my hormone panel you'd assume I was female. Hormonally I'm biologically female, and my body is working very hard to close the gap. I don't see myself as physically, biologically, mentally, or emotionally male. If I saw that in our policies I'd probably escalate it to a higher authority via an anonymous ombudsman. I realize that isn't an option for everyone though.

(1) Is the term 'Biological male' trans phobic? : MtF (reddit.com)

So instead of 'biologically female' it should be 'assigned X (at birth)'... which leaves out the possibility of biological sex misattribution (or is 'biological sex' itself now offensive?). Or if it's medically related, by reference to the specific biological mechanisms (person with uterus, person that is menstruating, etc.?)?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 15 June 2023 - 04:47 PM

[worry]

While I don't think it's wrong to consider whether people might be 'offended' by a decision or behavior, it does in some cases seem besides the point, and is often deliberately reductionist. Like, trans people aren't merely 'offended' by being erased, demonized, targeted, cleansed, or genocided, all of which are very much on the table (I do see that the 'offensive' framing comes from the reddit thread and not you personally, Azath, and I'm just speaking broadly here). But in terms of that specific work policy...

Neither gender nor sex are binary, as a matter of fact, so any terminology that recognizes that is superior to one that doesn't. There are certainly reasons that a work manual wouldn't have the same nuance as a medical or scientific source -- ignorance, shorthand, whatever it may be. What the reply you quoted lands on is that it's probably a deliberate use of weasel words. Which, frankly, is a more than fair suspicion because it's such a needless inclusion in the first place. One's biology is between an individual and their medical care professionals, and shouldn't really even be referenced in a work policy. The only relevant element in a workplace -- a social setting -- would be gender.

Still, the OP knows the most about their own workplace, and says it's likely not malice. So if it's ignorance or shorthand instead, then framing it in terms of 1) accuracy and 2) relevance maybe rank a little higher than 3) offensiveness, if the aim is to address it in a benefit of the doubt light (I'm also not saying "a little higher" with any sarcasm, as it's still possibly just an a-hole move by whoever wrote the policy).
Regarding the other thing, the professor, it's definitely great to see "colleges have gone woke" articles in 2023. On the other hand, it might actually be good when professors flunk their dumbass students for doing things wrong, even after being warned and also being given other alternatives/outs. That's kinda where I gotta land on that one.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 15 June 2023 - 05:45 PM, said:

While I don't think it's wrong to consider whether people might be 'offended' by a decision or behavior, it does in some cases seem besides the point, and is often deliberately reductionist. Like, trans people aren't merely 'offended' by being erased, demonized, targeted, cleansed, or genocided, all of which are very much on the table (I do see that the 'offensive' framing comes from the reddit thread and not you personally, Azath, and I'm just speaking broadly here). But in terms of that specific work policy...

Neither gender nor sex are binary, as a matter of fact, so any terminology that recognizes that is superior to one that doesn't. There are certainly reasons that a work manual wouldn't have the same nuance as a medical or scientific source -- ignorance, shorthand, whatever it may be. What the reply you quoted lands on is that it's probably a deliberate use of weasel words. Which, frankly, is a more than fair suspicion because it's such a needless inclusion in the first place. One's biology is between an individual and their medical care professionals, and shouldn't really even be referenced in a work policy. The only relevant element in a workplace -- a social setting -- would be gender.

Still, the OP knows the most about their own workplace, and says it's likely not malice. So if it's ignorance or shorthand instead, then framing it in terms of 1) accuracy and 2) relevance maybe rank a little higher than 3) offensiveness, if the aim is to address it in a benefit of the doubt light (I'm also not saying "a little higher" with any sarcasm, as it's still possibly just an a-hole move by whoever wrote the policy).
Regarding the other thing, the professor, it's definitely great to see "colleges have gone woke" articles in 2023. On the other hand, it might actually be good when professors flunk their dumbass students for doing things wrong, even after being warned and also being given other alternatives/outs. That's kinda where I gotta land on that one.

It seems like there are two main arguments against the accuracy of sex being ternary (as in male, female, and intersex).

1. Some cis women have XY chromosomes, and some cis men have XX chromosomes. But a cursory review of the research suggests that cis women with XY chromosomes either have androgen insensitivity or Swyer's syndrome; and cis women with androgen insensitivity 'do not have internal female sexual organs' and don't menstruate, while women with Swyer's syndrome

Quote

do not develop secondary female characteristics such as breasts, but they have a womb, so with appropriate hormone treatment and fertilized egg implantation they can actually become pregnant and give birth[... however] their ovaries are not developed

More Women Than Expected Are Genetically Men - Novo Nordisk Fonden

Both those cases seem to fit 'intersex' better. (I do find the 'relevance' argument persuasive though, assuming it's not actually relevant to the workplace situations.)

OTOH some cis men with XX chromosomes apparently develop almost all sex characteristics 'normally', except that:

Quote

All are believed to be sterile, however there is a possibility some could be fertile.

XX male syndrome - Wikipedia

... though again it could be argued that they are intersex. (Could also be argued that the word 'syndrome' reflects an irrational bias, given the negative connotations and the implication of disorder.)

Then there are people with XXY chromosomes, XXX chromosomes, etc.

Quote

Although females with this condition [XXX chromosomes] may be taller than average, this chromosomal change typically causes no unusual physical features. [... But is] associated with an increased risk of learning disabilities and delayed development of speech and language skills.

Trisomy X: MedlinePlus Genetics

2. Many sex characteristics exist on a spectrum (as argued in the Reddit thread cited before)---particularly amount of hormones. Some argue that trans people have brain structures 'more closely matching the sex' of the gender that they identify with.

There's also the ethical argument that people from an oppressed group should be allowed to determine how they're referred to; though that is complicated by disagreements and individual differences within the group. (Among other ethical arguments....)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 15 June 2023 - 07:22 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

A widespread misconception among philosophers, biomedical scientists and gender theorists – and now also among some authors and editors of influential science journals – is that the definition of the biological sex is based on chromosomes, genes, hormones, vulvas, or penises, etc. (e.g., Ref.[1, 3, 6, 26-28]) or that biological sex is a social construct.[2] [...] femaleness or maleness is not defined by any of these features that can, but do not need to be associated with the biological or gametic sex.

[...] basically every sexually reproducing species produces two distinct types of gametes which are either large (eggs in animals, ovules in plants) or small (sperm in animals, pollen in plants). Neither are there "speggs" or "pollules" (gametes of intermediate size) or five different biological sexes as postulated by Fausto-Sterling,[34] nor are the male and female sex "context-dependent categories with flexible associations to multiple variables".[6] All there is are two reproductive strategies based on two distinct categories of gametes that fuse to make offspring.[9, 17, 35] As Joan Roughgarden, a biologist who identifies as a transgender person, put it: "[…]'male' means making small gametes, and 'female' means making large gametes. Period!".[36] Moreover, it is important to note that the fundamental definition of the biological sexes (based on gamete size) must be distinguished from any operational usage of the term, for example that based on chromosomes or genes, etc., because fundamental and operational definitions are not equivalent.

[...] There is no doubt that biomedical research has shown that sexual differentiation in mammals is complicated and diverse. This complexity may result, for example, in sexual phenotypes with overlapping traits between the sexes (e.g. sex hormone levels), rendering it difficult to use these traits as unambiguous operational criteria to reliably predict the biological sex. However, this does not mean that evolutionary biologists think that there is a wider spectrum of biological sexes. On the contrary, it is consensus among biologists that the majority of sexually reproducing multicellular organisms have exactly two evolutionary strategies to generate offspring, a female one and a male one (e.g., Ref. [9, 11, 12, 15, 17]).

[...] Another reason for the wide-spread misconception about the biological sex is the notion that it is a condition, while in reality it may be a life-history stage.

[...] Denying the biological sex, for whatever noble cause, erodes scientific progress.

Biological sex is binary, even though there is a rainbow of sex roles

Quote

While most animal species fall into the "two types of gametes produced by two versions of the reproductive tract" model[...] Some worms produce both. [...] There are even lizards that have done away with one type all together. [...]

While sperm and ova matter, they are not the entirety of biology and don't tell us all we need to know about sex, especially human sex.

[...]

The bottom line is that while animal gametes can be described as binary (of two distinct kinds), the physiological systems, behaviors and individuals that produce them are not.

[...] So when someone states that "An organism's sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing" and argues that legal and social policy should be "rooted in properties of bodies," they are not really talking about gametes and sex biology. They are arguing for a specific political, and discriminatory, definition of what is "natural" and "right" for humans based on a false representation of biology. [...] dishonest ascriptions of what biology is are being deployed to restrict women's bodily autonomy, target LGBTQIA+ individuals broadly and, most recently, attack the rights of transexual and transgender people.

Here's Why Human Sex Is Not Binary

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

One shortened form is 'AFAB':

Quote

Who has a vagina?

People who are assigned female at birth (AFAB) have vaginas. AFAB people include cisgender women — people who are AFAB and identify as women — and some transgender men and nonbinary individuals. Some intersex individuals have cervixes, too.

Vagina: Anatomy, Function, Conditions & What's Normal (clevelandclinic.org)

Or AMAB or AIAB.

Quote

Before the millions of views, the subsequent ridicule and finally the earnest apology, The Associated Press Stylebook practically oozed good intentions in its tweet [...]:

"We recommend avoiding general and often dehumanizing 'the' labels such as the poor, the mentally ill, the French, the disabled, the college educated."

[...] it's the blue cities on the West Coast, where those on the streets are often sensitively described as "people experiencing homelessness," that have some of the highest rates of unsheltered homelessness. How about worrying less about jargon and more about zoning and other evidence-based policies that actually get people into housing?

[...] problems are easier to solve when we use clear, incisive language. The A.M.A. style guide's recommendations for discussing health are instead a wordy model of obfuscation, cant and sloppy analysis.


[...] While this new terminology is meant to be inclusive, it bewilders and alienates millions of Americans. It creates an in-group of educated elites fluent in terms like BIPOC and A.A.P.I. and a larger out-group of baffled and offended voters, expanding the gulf between well-educated liberals and the 62 percent of Americans 25 or older who lack a bachelor's degree — which is why Republicans [...] have seized upon all things woke.

DeSantis, who boasts that he will oust the "woke mob," strikes me as a prime beneficiary when, say, the Cleveland Clinic explains anatomy like this: "Who has a vagina? People who are assigned female at birth (AFAB) have vaginas."

Opinion | Inclusive or Alienating? The Language Wars Go On - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Time for them to fix the French language....

IDK about 'AFAB' but if that's what a trans person prefers over 'biological female' it's what should be used... for that person at least.

Guess AFAB may be even better than 'assigned female' because it doesn't explicitly contain the word 'female'. Then again all it takes is a mocking or contemptuous tone of voice or context to transform just about any term into a slur (see: 'the euphemism treadmill'). Even 'Virtue Incarnate'.

OTOH:

Quote

thought changes more slowly than we can change the words for it, and has a way of catching up with our new coinages. Since that is likely eternal, we must accept that we'll change our terms just like we change our underwear, as a part of linguistic life in a civilised society.

Euphemisms are like underwear – best changed frequently | Aeon Essays

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 June 2023 - 05:47 PM

[WithdrawalRoutine]

I'm a trans woman historian who studies language and conceptual history and I think we are in general too willing to allow narrow understandings of the concepts and words we are familiar with to shape our view of the world and our realities, rather than allow the phenomena to come first and make langauge subordinate to the phenomena.
So words or concepts like "male" and "female", in English, with the particular histories behind their formation and usage, are actually doing a lot of work to obscure complexities in the facts of gender, biological makeup, and the ways in which the clusters of phenomena that make up these concepts combine and overlap.
When people use "amab" or "assigned male at birth" to try and evoke the general reproductive makeup and appearance of a person's body, gendered notions inevitably seep in. Conversely, when one uses "man" or "woman" to attempt to describe a person's 'cerebral sex', or gender presentation, or gender roles, inevitably notions and assumptions about organs and bodies seep in.

Language itself is flawed, as are the philosophies and moral convictions that have been held long enough by subsequent generations to shape the meanings attached to our words.

I once came up with a fun thought experiment for myself, when all this discourse about language and gender and sex was honestly overwhelming my ability to connect to that innate sense of who and what I was, and the experiment was this:

If I existed, somehow, self-sufficiently in a forest with no human society, no language

[WithdrawalRoutine]

Oyo I clicked post by accident. Typing on phones is still hard!

... no language, and I had no socialisation with human beings, I had no concepts, no words, no inherited culture or nurture to draw on... what would I be? Would I still be a "woman" if that concept does not exist? And the answer was that even without a society, without words, there would be things that I would do and want that come out of me. I would grow my hair long and adorn it with flowers. I would look into the water for my reflection and want to feel pretty. If I didn't I would feel sad, even distressed and alienated from my image. I would sing. I would be terrible at building any kind of shelter and would probably go in for some kind of leaf-covered hole for a while. I would revere the natural world around me.
And I would not need any words to affirm or confirm that who I am fits into one box or another. I would just act on pure impulse and authentic emotion rather than attempt to conform to pre-existing ideas of two rather arbitrarily and crudely-formulated gender categories.

I hardly even know why I'm saying all of this. Sometimes a woman just seeks a bit of catharsis and respite in an antagonistic world.

[Macros]

genuine question, would you grow your hair long, adorn it with flowers and subsequently feel pretty if you lived in a vacuum and had no-one telling you or influencing you in any way as to what is "pretty"? It's an interesting thought experiment but our subconscious is surely too active and influenced by the world around us to really know the answer (if a tree falls...) Do you mean if you were transported to a situation of total isolation, or grew up totally alone?
do other sentient species look in the water and see pretty? How would we know?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Confucius called on Lao Dan ['Long Ear' / Laozi] and spoke to him about benevolence and righteousness. Lao Dan said, "Chaff from the winnowing fan can so blind the eye that heaven, earth, and the four directions all seem to shift place. A mosquito or a horsefly stinging your skin can keep you awake a whole night. And when benevolence and righteousness in all their fearfulness come to muddle the mind, the confusion is unimaginable. If you want to keep the world from losing its simplicity, you must move with the freedom of the wind, stand in the perfection of Virtue. Why all this huffing and puffing, as though you were carrying a big drum and searching for a lost child! The snow goose needs no daily bath to stay white; the crow needs no daily inking to stay black. Black and white in their simplicity offer no ground for argument; fame and reputation in their clamorousness offer no ground for envy. When the springs dry up and the fish are left stranded on the ground, they spew one another with moisture and wet one another down with spit—but it would be much better if they could forget one another in the rivers and lakes!"

When Confucius returned from his visit with Lao Dan, he did not speak for three days. His disciples said, "Master, you've seen Lao Dan —what estimation would you make of him?"

Confucius said, "At last I may say that I have seen a dragon—a dragon that coils to show their body at its best, that sprawls out to display their patterns at their best, riding on the breath of the clouds, feeding on the yin and yang. My mouth fell open and I couldn't close it; my tongue flew up and I couldn't even stammer. How could I possibly make any estimation of Lao Dan!"

The Complete Works of Zhuangzi - Google Books

Quote

孔子見老聃而語仁義。老聃曰：「夫播穅眯目，則天地四方易位矣；蚊虻噆膚，則通昔不寐矣。夫仁義憯然，乃憤吾心，亂莫大焉。吾子使天下無失其朴，吾子亦放風而動，總德而立矣，又奚傑然若負建鼓而求亡子者邪？夫鵠不日浴而白，烏不日黔而黑。黑白之朴，不足以為辯；名譽之觀，不足以為廣。泉涸，魚相與處於陸，相呴以溼，相濡以沫，不若相忘於江湖。」

孔子見老聃歸，三日不談。弟子問曰：「夫子見老聃，亦將何歸哉？」孔子曰：「吾乃今於是乎見龍。龍合而成體，散而成章，乘乎雲氣而養乎陰陽。予口張而不能嗋，予又何規老聃哉！」

Click on any word to see more details

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 19 June 2023 - 10:17 PM

[WithdrawalRoutine]

Macros, on 19 June 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

genuine question, would you grow your hair long, adorn it with flowers and subsequently feel pretty if you lived in a vacuum and had no-one telling you or influencing you in any way as to what is "pretty"? It's an interesting thought experiment but our subconscious is surely too active and influenced by the world around us to really know the answer (if a tree falls...) Do you mean if you were transported to a situation of total isolation, or grew up totally alone?
do other sentient species look in the water and see pretty? How would we know?

That's a great question, because it goes right to the interior. The answer is yes, without a doubt. Again, "pretty" is the word am using to attempt to convey what I know I would feel a need for. And that need for beauty in, on, and around me is an innate feeling, it has always been there and exists even without exterior influence. The exterior influences may affect gradually my sense of beauty, or my confidence in pursuing the type of beauty I desire, but they do not put the desire there.

And it's important to say here that all of that desire would not make me a "woman," because that concept would not exist. Men can desire beauty just as much and sometimes more than a woman. But when our societies do have these concepts present, it becomes clear just by observation of others' expression of their interior world what one is. With all of their mediation of their selves and desires, men and women are generally quite different, both in terms of how society treats them. A trans woman will tell you how, even as a child when nobody "knows" you're a girl and not a boy, they still know, and treat you as a girl in a boy's body - the amount of violence shown to you depends entirely on your surroundings but is very very likely in this condition.

So yes, the 'thought experiment' of total isolation is just about trying to see what a person's sense of who they are might be if they pull away from societal pressures to be a certain way. Had I been asked that question before coming out to myself, I might not have known how to respond, I might not have had any sense of who I might be in total isolation. My answer would most likely be based on what I think people want me to say. But I have now such a connection to myself and a certainty about who and what I am that in many ways I don't need language and concepts to accomodate me. Rather, I am a phenomenon - a woman - and know that the use of language in this case is in describing the phenomenon after it occurs, not reshaping the phenomenon with language and words like a set of sculpting tools.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 19 June 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

genuine question, would you grow your hair long, adorn it with flowers and subsequently feel pretty if you lived in a vacuum and had no-one telling you or influencing you in any way as to what is "pretty"? It's an interesting thought experiment but our subconscious is surely too active and influenced by the world around us to really know the answer (if a tree falls...) Do you mean if you were transported to a situation of total isolation, or grew up totally alone?
do other sentient species look in the water and see pretty? How would we know?

This is interesting as I just learned a story. You know that news that Orcas have been attacking and sinking yachts (they believe this is due to an instigating incident in which a yacht ran into and injured the matriarch of a pod of orcas and she sought revenge and then taught it to her pod; Which BTW "TEAM ORCA MOM"), and that behaviour has begun to jump from pod to pod? Well this is not a new phenomenon as once a number of years ago an orca swam around with a dead salmon on her head like a hat...and this behaviour was passed to other pods...

So I feel like animals definitely do some of the same culturally passed behaviour that doesn't come from a biological reason.

It's all fascinating.

[QuickTidal]

Ugh, at the University of Waterloo there was a stabbing in a Gender Philosophy class....some fragile right wing nut job walked in, asked the professor what the class was then then pulled out two knives and tried to attack the teacher, 3 students got injured...for anyone who thinks that the way that people like Elon Musk, and Jordan Peterson, and all those other pieces of trash spout lies and misinformation about gender doesn't radicalize people into doing heinous and evil shit...

”…a stabbing incident occurred toward the end of PHIL 202: Gender Issues in Hagey Hall… Jinming Li, an arts and business student in the class, was an eyewitness to the event. According to Li, a man of about 20-30 years of age entered the class and asked the professor what the class was about. The man closed the door, pulled two knives out of his backpack and proceeded to attack the professor.”

At least right wing terrorism (let's not mince words, that's what this was) in Canada is a stabbing, because if this was the USA this would have probably been a mass shooting. No one is dead thankfully.

I hope this guy is punished to the full extent of the law. Hate crimes in Canada are not tolerated.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 29 June 2023 - 01:49 PM, said:

Ugh, at the University of Waterloo there was a stabbing in a Gender Philosophy class....some fragile right wing nut job walked in, asked the professor what the class was then then pulled out two knives and tried to attack the teacher, 3 students got injured...for anyone who thinks that the way that people like Elon Musk, and Jordan Peterson, and all those other pieces of trash spout lies and misinformation about gender doesn't radicalize people into doing heinous and evil shit...

"…a stabbing incident occurred toward the end of PHIL 202: Gender Issues in Hagey Hall… Jinming Li, an arts and business student in the class, was an eyewitness to the event. According to Li, a man of about 20-30 years of age entered the class and asked the professor what the class was about. The man closed the door, pulled two knives out of his backpack and proceeded to attack the professor."

At least right wing terrorism (let's not mince words, that's what this was) in Canada is a stabbing, because if this was the USA this would have probably been a mass shooting. No one is dead thankfully.

I hope this guy is punished to the full extent of the law. Hate crimes in Canada are not tolerated.

The stabber looks remarkably androgynous, especially in the close-up on the right:



Suspect in Attack on Canadian Gender Studies Class Was Motivated by Hate: Police

[stone monkey]

Even art is no escape.
Whatever you think of Drill/Grime as a genre, it's still art and I will happily fight you on that regard. So the Met's thesis here appears to be that young black men are, by their very natures, so unsophisticated that it is impossible for them to write and/or perform a song in character.
By this standard, I suppose Johnny Cash really should have been jailed for shooting a man in Reno, just to watch him die.