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Identity Politics

#361 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 19 February 2023 - 10:20 PM

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 19 February 2023 - 01:04 PM, said:

... but anything even remotely critical of the misapplications of gender-affirming care for children is treated as inherently 'transphobic' and beyond the pale by many on social media....


Yeah, which is ridiculous. This is a complicated matter that requires the utmost professionalism and knowledge to deal with. I think one of the reasons, though, that response to criticism often escalates into accusations of transphobia and bigotry is that opposition to gender-affirming care almost always devolves into calls for a blanket ban through legislation.


It goes both ways; Too easily available access to gender affirming care can ruin lives. But so can a blanket-ban of the same care.
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#362 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 20 February 2023 - 08:36 AM

I'm surprised to have not seen anything about the murder of Brianna Ghey here yet:

Brianna Ghey: Teenagers appear in court charged with trans schoolgirl's murder | UK News | Sky News

So far as I've been able to tell, she was killed for being trans. And it's galling to know that the killers, due to their age, will probably get out of any prison sentence before they turn 40.
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#363 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 20 February 2023 - 01:31 PM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 20 February 2023 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm surprised to have not seen anything about the murder of Brianna Ghey here yet:

Brianna Ghey: Teenagers appear in court charged with trans schoolgirl's murder | UK News | Sky News

So far as I've been able to tell, she was killed for being trans. And it's galling to know that the killers, due to their age, will probably get out of any prison sentence before they turn 40.



'They said all lines of inquiry were "being explored", including hate crime.

[...] detectives previously said there was no evidence to suggest the killing was "hate related".'

Brianna Ghey killing investigated as possible hate crime - BBC News

'police [called it] a "targeted attack".

[...] she was "gang beaten" and subject to transphobic bullying for years, while those in a position to stop the bullying "refused to intervene".'

Brianna Ghey killing, two suspects arrested in Warrington (gendergp.com)

'Prosecutor [...] told the court Brianna's death was "extremely brutal and punishing".'

Brianna Ghey: Two teenagers charged with murder remanded into custody | UK News | Sky News

'[hate] crimes against transgender people saw the biggest rise, [...] up 56% from the previous year.

The Home Office said the overall rise could be due to better recording by police - and fewer had been recorded under Covid restrictions in 2020-21.

The rise in crimes against transgender people could also be because "transgender issues have been heavily discussed on social media over the last year", it said.'

Hate crimes recorded by police up by more than a quarter - BBC News

I'm not sure exactly what 'targeted' means in this context, but if it was 'targeted' and 'punishing', then even if she didn't look obviously trans, transphobia was probably a major motivating factor. But do you think that means that issues like the malpractice at Gids shouldn't be discussed online because they might push potential transphobic murderers into action?

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#364 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 21 February 2023 - 08:36 AM

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 20 February 2023 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure exactly what 'targeted' means in this context, but if it was 'targeted' and 'punishing', then even if she didn't look obviously trans, transphobia was probably a major motivating factor. But do you think that means that issues like the malpractice at Gids shouldn't be discussed online because they might push potential transphobic murderers into action?


Uh, I'm simply pointing out that I was surprised that the murder hadn't been linked in the thread yet. But I also wouldn't put a massive amount of stock into anything the BBC puts up because it's a conservative mouthpiece and unreliable, especially when it comes to stuff like this. I haven't read anything into Gids.

Anyway, yes the attack was targeted, at present everything suggests that the reason she was murdered was for being trans, so it is entirely a hate crime.
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#365 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 07:00 AM

Alejandra Caraballo on Twitter: "Michael Knowles is openly calling for genocide against trans people at CPAC. "Transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely." https://t.co/uW6pAw02vI" / Twitter

Well, this is disturbing.
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#366 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 01:02 PM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 05 March 2023 - 07:00 AM, said:




Of course he'd respond that 'eradicated from public life' is not 'genocide'; that it's not a call for murder, only for banning of what he would probably regard as 'cross-dressing' in 'public' as opposed to private. But what then happens to transgender women who have visible breasts? They're expected to never go outside? Join a cloister?

At first glance, the gap between 'openly calling for genocide' and the actual quotation might seem to be daring people on social media to point out the distinction at risk of being called transphobic etc. for valuing reality over partisanship or the emotional reactions of the oppressed.

But at the very least 'eradicated', delivered in a pre-prepared speech, seems calculated to refer to genocide: 'Transgenderism must be eradicated!... from public life'. Very likely a dog-whistle engineered to maintain plausible deniability and accuse people who point it out of dishonesty, paranoia, or 'hysteria' (persecuting them 'conservative Christians' as always... it's not like they want crosses and other Christian supremacist shit displayed everywhere in public---oh wait they do...).

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 05 March 2023 - 01:03 PM

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#367 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 01:08 PM

Without resorting to conspiracy you have to wonder if the uproar around the Terf Game was engineered to play into calls for genocide like this.
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#368 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 01:42 PM

It's a clamor of voices and the people yelling that message are getting bolder and bolder about calling to each other for action.
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#369 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 02:22 PM

Multiple headlines claiming he said transgender people should be eradicated may be playing into his trap (he used 'transgenderism' instead of 'transgender people', distinguishing between the behavior or ideology and the people enacting it---as conservatives have done in the past with homosexuality):

Quote

'"We are demanding full retractions and apologies from@thedailybeast, @HuffPost, and @RollingStone for their false and libelous claims about @michaeljknowles, and have referred these all to our General Counsel."'

[quoted by] Ron Filipkowski ���� on Twitter: "Haven't we had enough CPAC drama for one day? There have been more incidents than attendees. https://t.co/QQJzafwM0A" / Twitter


Which raises the question of how best to report on a dog whistle. Especially when reactionaries delight in inviting the most extreme, transgressive, paranoid, violent allusions or undertones....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 05 March 2023 - 02:23 PM

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#370 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 05 March 2023 - 03:27 PM

Quote

'the phrase “It’s OK to be white” is a right-wing troll that originated in the forums of 4Chan. [...] intended as a covert way to force an overreaction from progressives, including liberal journalists, if it started to spread, which in turn would show “lefties” hate white people. Soon, signs bearing the slogan did crop up on campuses and other places around the country. [...] the Anti-Defamation League did mark the phrase a “hate slogan”—reasonably, given that it was white supremacists (most notably David Duke) who ran with the 4Chan prank in the first place.

Rasmussen apparently assumed its audience would be too stupid to know any of that, and in the case of Scott Adams [Dilbert comic strip], it was clearly right. Perhaps some of the people Rasmussen polled were aware of the history of the phrase, which at one point made it into a Tucker Carlson monologue; it’s hard to say, and Rasmussen didn’t care to ask. But the whole charade seemed clearly designed to end up on shows like Adams’, where it purported to become a referendum on whether or not Black Americans hate white people. [...]

The irony is that the “it’s OK to be white” troll has now undone Adams worse than it did any supposed campus hysterics.'


https://slate.com/ne...-explained.html



Or he thought his listeners either wouldn't know or wouldn't care, and wouldn't bother doing any legitimate research... while his comic strip has been taken out of syndication his political voice seems far from 'canceled'.
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#371 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 04:00 PM

This may be the dumbest article (opinion or not) that I've read in a long ass time.

https://www.thedaily...ia-at-its-worst

Let's pretend for a second that a 600lb shut-in is normal and that someone playing them in a fatsuit is some beyond the pale notion. Casting an actor at or near that actual weight for inclusivity reasons would be an exercise in futility from all angles. Assuming you can find a 600lb actor (are there any?), a 600lb individual is not doing much of anything, they get winded just getting up and walking around. The idea that someone of that weight could function on 12hr days of a film set is pretty insane. We don't cast actual drug addicts to play drug addicts very often because that would be a major liability for the production, so the idea that we should cast someone with an obvious eating addiction like that (barring those with medical problems that cause weight gain) is skewed AF. I truly want to understand how she thinks that a 600lb actor is the answer here...

She calls it "a deeply harmful portrayal of a fat person". The person in THE WHALE is not just a "fat person", they are an obese person who is deep in an unhealthy lifestyle that is killing them. 600lbs is not a normal weight for ANYONE, and no one called simply "fat" is 600lbs. The health problems of a person who weighs that much are myriad. I'm a pretty average sized guy, but I carry around 10-15 extra pounds in a given month and even that absolutely affects my health and I cannot imagine the physical and mental problems that would manifest if I weighed 3x more than I do. So this notion that it's "harmful" is like saying portraying drug addiction is harmful...it's not.

Quote

"I’ll be upfront in saying that I haven’t actually seen The Whale"


....wait what? So you don't even know the context of this story, but you've written an opinion piece? Okay lady.

Quote

"It was also that it was written and directed by two thin men"


Look, I understand the notion of a POC writing something deeply significant for POC as a "lived experience" that a non-POC cannot have....but a thin person not allowed to write a story about someone who is obesely fat is...weird gatekeeping nonsense.

Quote

"screenwriter Samuel D. Hunter, who has said he "self-medicated with food” as a young man (which is not the same as identifying as fat)"


WTF? People don't "identify" as fat do they? My gods we live in a world where everyone wants to be a victim really badly. Does this woman think that someone who is 600lbs LIKES to be that, and wants to be recognized FOR that? Weight is not culture, my gods. Aside from all else "self-mediating with food" is absolutely something depressed people do OFTEN (I eat my feelings, is something you hear a lot) and thus is worthy of being the context that the screenwriter applied from his own life to the Charlie character...the fact that this woman thinks that should not count because he didn't "identify" as fat is...wow.

Quote

"and the thin director Darren Aronofsky"


The projection on her part here is magnificent really, if it weren't so insane as a take.

Quote

From what I gleaned early on, The Whale fell for the trappings of classic trauma porn: a self-hating fat person punishing himself over and over. As someone who has worked hard to counter my own anti-fat biases and embraced the word “fat” to describe myself, I wanted no part of it.


The fact that this woman has not seen the movie could not be more clear than in this paragraph. The movie is about loss, depression and meaning, and how we bury ourselves in our vices if we spiral into said depression. It's not trauma porn, it's a very realistic portrayal of humanity and how easily we slip into depressive states that are destructive, regardless of what that destructiveness manifests as.

Quote

"It matters that Fraser won the Oscar for a role that Lindy West, the fat-positive author of the memoir Shrill (which was made into a groundbreaking Hulu show a few years ago), recently described as “a fantasy of fat squalor, a confirmation that we ‘do this’ to ourselves.”"


I'm not sure that a 600lb person (again, that's what we are talking about here, not someone who is simply overweight or plus size, but someone who is so grossly overweight that every day they are in danger of dying) is "at fault" as it were, but depression...the overarching theme she's wildly missing in the film (which she might know if she'd SEEN it), is a very real and dangerous thing. If it doesn't cause weight gain, it can cause the opposite (after a breakup once I stopped eating most days for a long time, and I dropped a LOT of weight and it took a visit to the doctors to learn that I was bordering on an eating disorder and needed to start eating normally again or I was going to be in trouble), or drug addiction, or alcoholism, or any number of other vices we as humans throw ourselves into when depressed. Like this is the problem I see in her take...she's literally refusing to accept the fact that this film is about depression, and sees only something that is showing fat people in a bad light. It shows you how shallow her (and every other critic she cites in the article to try to support her asinine take) argument is beyond the fact that she didn't watch the film she's taken an opinion on. She's equating the struggle of someone who is 600lbs with that of the average overweight person and has structured her argument around that.

Quote

"Three years ago, I published a feature in the LA Times suggesting a version of the Bechdel test for fat representation on TV. It was not enough to write fat people into scripts and cast fat actors in prominent roles, I argued; it was important that their story lines not revolve around their weight or desire to not be fat."


This is all fine and good in a normal film or tv show where a person is simply overweight or plus sized...but this is not what she's taken her position on. She's taken her position on a role about a 600lb depressed obese person on the verge of death. These are not comparable.


The second half of the article tries to equate Fraser's win with the general view of overweight actors and writers being underrepresented in Hollywood, which I don't feel is a plausible comparison. I feel like the thrust of wanting to see fat actors in roles that don't just revolve around them being fat is fine...but THE WHALE is simply not equatable to that fight. Not even a little bit. I maintain that no 600lb actor is being cast in anything due to the fact that no production would cast someone who was so clearly physically unable to fulfill that contract.

The writer of this article is overweight herself (though it doesn't appear to be excessive mind you, just a very average plus size woman if the photos are recent), and the aspersions she casts over this movie are beyond her fight for representation of plus sized people...because I doubt that Plus sized overweight people are seeking to be 600lb's and unable to move without feeling that weight with every step and he associated health issues that accompany it.

TL;DR: Plus sized people deserve to be represented and listened to in Hollywood, no argument there...But THE WHALE is not about them no matter how much they want to try to make it about them, it's about depression and about someone who is WELL beyond what anyone would consider "overweight". 600lbs is dangerous healthwise unless you're 15ft tall. Hell, I think something like 10-15 of the people featured on that TLC show MY 600lb Life have died since their episodes aired. She's using the wrong piece of media to frame her fight, and it exposes a projection and victimhood inherent in her. She also WILDLY ignores that Fraser was overweight himself until VERY recently from his own depression after his nasty divorce and the physical toll the MUMMY movies took on him (and having been sexually assaulted)...but noting that would fly in the face of her argument more than she's already accomplished herself with the whole bad faith take.
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#372 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 10:07 PM

There is a bit of a movement called Healthy at Every Size and it's pretty dangerous (or at least the extreme proponents of it are).

I am all for body positivity and encouraging people to love themselves for who they are, even if that also incorporates improving themselves (e.g. I certainly could lose weight myself but that's a health thing rather than an obsessive "I must get thinner to confirm to a standard" thing).

The HAES movement has, at least in examples I've seen, spread misinformation about the unhealthiness of morbid obesity stating that it's just genetics that make people like that, there's nothing wrong with it at all and the Doctors are just wrong for suggesting that diet and exercise are potential benefits.

I've seen people suggest that anyone who wants to get fitter or lose weight are just playing into the evil societal expectations.

Like all things, there seems to be elements of truth contained there, but things have been taken to the extremes.

I've not seen the Whale (ridiculously happy for Brendan Fraser though!) but from what I know of it, it's not a "haha look at this fat guy" kind of thing.
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#373 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 11:27 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 15 March 2023 - 04:00 PM, said:

TL;DR: Plus sized people deserve to be represented and listened to in Hollywood, no argument there...But THE WHALE is not about them no matter how much they want to try to make it about them, it's about depression and about someone who is WELL beyond what anyone would consider "overweight". 600lbs is dangerous healthwise unless you're 15ft tall. Hell, I think something like 10-15 of the people featured on that TLC show MY 600lb Life have died since their episodes aired. She's using the wrong piece of media to frame her fight, and it exposes a projection and victimhood inherent in her. She also WILDLY ignores that Fraser was overweight himself until VERY recently from his own depression after his nasty divorce and the physical toll the MUMMY movies took on him (and having been sexually assaulted)...but noting that would fly in the face of her argument more than she's already accomplished herself with the whole bad faith take.


I'd rephrase "to be represented and listened to" to "not be hindered by bias"... Everyone deserves their time in the sun if they have the ability, drive and discipline to achieve it, but phrasing it as deserving representation immediately seems to me like it would come at a cost of someone else who, just maybe, worked harder or just better. But overall I very much agree with you :D

View PostTiste Simeon, on 15 March 2023 - 10:07 PM, said:

There is a bit of a movement called Healthy at Every Size and it's pretty dangerous (or at least the extreme proponents of it are).
I am all for body positivity and encouraging people to love themselves for who they are, even if that also incorporates improving themselves (e.g. I certainly could lose weight myself but that's a health thing rather than an obsessive "I must get thinner to confirm to a standard" thing).
The HAES movement has, at least in examples I've seen, spread misinformation about the unhealthiness of morbid obesity stating that it's just genetics that make people like that, there's nothing wrong with it at all and the Doctors are just wrong for suggesting that diet and exercise are potential benefits.


As with many other topics, it's a very reasonable idea (in this instance, going back to Body Positivity starting out as a movement for acceptance and normalization of amputees in society) has been hijacked by nutjobs and attention seekers, driving it into extremes no sane person should entertain.
Semi on-subject, there's the interesting case of Amberlynn Reid who got incredibly rewarded by our internet society for stopping trying to get healthy and instead embracing suicidal behaviour and glorifying the lifestyle. Despite my personal dislike of her actions, I still think it's a rather sad story and says more about western society than about her, all been told.

Quote

I've not seen the Whale (ridiculously happy for Brendan Fraser though!) but from what I know of it, it's not a "haha look at this fat guy" kind of thing.


Of course it's not. Also, see it asap, it's a fantastic movie, can't recommend it enough. I enjoyed it, Maverick, and Banshees... much more than Everything Everywhere All At Once (why do people have such a hardon for that movie anyway?)
Also, Sadie Sink should've been Ellie in The Last Of Us and you know it.
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#374 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 01:58 PM

Wanna know the funniest thing about all these conservative idiots protesting/destroying/throwing out/boycotting Bud Light for having a Trans model and being generally supportive of LBTQ rights?

They think their boycott is working because the sub brand of Bud Light took a small monetary hit that looks big to them....but it shows you the sheer lack of intelligence in that group of these deep fried Conservative nut jobs....Anheiser Busch, who own Bud Light is a MASSIVE global corporation who own something like 100 beer brands, and last year pulled down something like 59.7billion in sales....so yeah, even the reputed "4 million" (no idea if that number is accurate) in lost revenue in the States, would not even make A-B as a corporation BLINK....these people are pissing into the wind and thinking it's accomplishing something. And for gods sake don't tell them that the other beers they like drink are all owned by A-B too.

Anyways. Funny. Stupid is gonna stupid.
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#375 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 03:22 PM

The truly awful thing about that story, QT, is that anyone thinks Bud Light is a good beer, regardless of anything else...
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#376 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 03:40 PM

View PostTiste Simeon, on 12 April 2023 - 03:22 PM, said:

The truly awful thing about that story, QT, is that anyone thinks Bud Light is a good beer, regardless of anything else...


Indeed!
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#377 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 04:24 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 12 April 2023 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostTiste Simeon, on 12 April 2023 - 03:22 PM, said:

The truly awful thing about that story, QT, is that anyone thinks Bud Light is a good beer, regardless of anything else...


Indeed!


Admittedly, the first thought I had when I heard about this so-called boycott was; "So, a group of people I generally dislike are boycotting a beer...that I don't like."
Screw you all, and have a nice day!

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#378 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 04:36 PM

View PostTiste Simeon, on 12 April 2023 - 03:22 PM, said:

The truly awful thing about that story, QT, is that anyone thinks Bud Light is a good beer, regardless of anything else...



What is The Good? Bud Lite is efficient intoxication: cheap and low in calories. By suffering through the agony of drinking it instead of something tasty, you demonstrate the depths of your commitment to true Virtue.

Even moreso if you then pull the assault rifle out of your pants to shoot the cans full of holes to fill them with gasoline to light them on fire as further solemn sacrifices to the spirit of Virtue. Use every part of the beer can.
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#379 User is offline   Lady Bliss 

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Posted 14 April 2023 - 04:44 PM

I don’t see how anyone could think that having Dylan as a representative could hurt their lives. No one is saying that you should have to switch sexes, it is more a sense of support for Dylan to live her life. This is the problem I have with conservatives.
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#380 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 12:43 AM

The logic makes more sense when you reverse the direction.

It’s not ‘we believe they’re doing harm, so we must stop them’.

It’s ‘we want to stop them (from existing), so to achieve that goal we must assert they’re doing harm’.
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