[Tsundoku]

Macros, on 22 July 2022 - 04:37 AM, said:

My link

Well, shit. I knew the numbers were high, but not that high.

[James Hutton]

bUt SwItChInG tO aLtErNaTiVeS iS tOo ExPeNsIvE

[Mezla PigDog]

I've been kidding myself for ages that my version of meat eating isn't as bad for the climate as everyone else's. I've been trying to eat organic, non-intensively farmed meat. Today I read an article by George Monbiot (who I usually try to avoid because his matter of fact dissection of topics around our impending climate apocalypse are so accurate and well researched, I usually wind up wanting to lock myself and child in a car with the exhaust pipe funneled in through a window) where he pointed out my version was the most damaging of all!! Essentially organic pasture fed beef and lamb is the farming method that produces the least protein per hectare of land that could otherwise be used as carbon sinks for temperate rain forest. He calculated the carbon toll of intensively farmed meat and the carbon cost of producing feed for intensively farmed animals too. It was pretty indisputable.

The climate logic of a plant based diet is very hard to ignore. What's everyone else's excuse? I don't have one - I was vegetarian for many years but now I'm not. I'm trying to cut down on animal products but family logistics make it a challenge. And cows and sheep taste so darned good and are so easy to get.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mezla PigDog, on 16 August 2022 - 09:31 PM, said:

I've been kidding myself for ages that my version of meat eating isn't as bad for the climate as everyone else's. I've been trying to eat organic, non-intensively farmed meat. Today I read an article by George Monbiot (who I usually try to avoid because his matter of fact dissection of topics around our impending climate apocalypse are so accurate and well researched, I usually wind up wanting to lock myself and child in a car with the exhaust pipe funneled in through a window) where he pointed out my version was the most damaging of all!! Essentially organic pasture fed beef and lamb is the farming method that produces the least protein per hectare of land that could otherwise be used as carbon sinks for temperate rain forest. He calculated the carbon toll of intensively farmed meat and the carbon cost of producing feed for intensively farmed animals too. It was pretty indisputable.

The climate logic of a plant based diet is very hard to ignore. What's everyone else's excuse? I don't have one - I was vegetarian for many years but now I'm not. I'm trying to cut down on animal products but family logistics make it a challenge. And cows and sheep taste so darned good and are so easy to get.

Eating oysters and certain types of seafood (that happen to be among my favorites) is apparently better for the environment than a plant-based diet.

'The simple food that fights climate change

[...] they actively sequester carbon. They can even protect fragile ecosystems by cleaning the water they live in. Welcome to the remarkable and unglamorous world of the bivalve.

[...] Their lowly status, however, perhaps means their potential has been largely overlooked. But as the world attempts to find ways of feeding a growing population with less environmental impact, many experts believe we may need to make these shellfish a larger part of our diet.

[...] "Bivalves have the remarkable potential to provide people with food that is not only environmentally sustainable but also nutrient dense," says David Willer, a zoologist at the University of Cambridge[...]

[...] "[...] the environmental footprint of bivalve aquaculture is even lower than many arable crops in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, land and freshwater use."'

The simple food that fights climate change

'Overall, the food production with the lowest impact is fisheries on small schooling species like sardines and anchovies, and the aquaculture of mollusks such as oysters and clams, which feed naturally in the ocean and can be caught using little fuel. [...] One surprising finding is that a selective diet of oysters and sardines can even have a lower environmental impact than previous studies have found for vegetarian or vegan diets.'

Eating oysters and sardines is better for the environment than most land-based food

Herring too, which I also love: 'found that certain types of seafood — including farmed shellfish and small, oily fish like herring — are more climate-friendly than even some fruits and vegetables when nutritional content is taken into account.'

Eating seafood is about as climate-friendly as eating plants, study finds. Here's why

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 16 August 2022 - 10:03 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

(Though I did eat non-seafood 'meat' for the first time in two and a half years two months ago---my excuse being that what I ordered (delivered from a Georgian restaurant) unexpectedly came with mutton inside. Same thing happened two and a half years ago when I ordered delivery from a Nigerian restaurant and got surprise meat in my peanut stew---can't recall now whether it was chicken or goat, though I generally prefer the taste of goat. In retrospect the virtuous thing to do would have been to try to give it to someone else who otherwise would have eaten extra meat... oh well.)

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

(Of course the best meat to eat for the environment is (most likely) humans... so long as you don't start farming them. And you don't use wasteful tech like bullets or cars.)

[Macros]

Mezla PigDog, on 16 August 2022 - 09:31 PM, said:

I've been kidding myself for ages that my version of meat eating isn't as bad for the climate as everyone else's. I've been trying to eat organic, non-intensively farmed meat. Today I read an article by George Monbiot (who I usually try to avoid because his matter of fact dissection of topics around our impending climate apocalypse are so accurate and well researched, I usually wind up wanting to lock myself and child in a car with the exhaust pipe funneled in through a window) where he pointed out my version was the most damaging of all!! Essentially organic pasture fed beef and lamb is the farming method that produces the least protein per hectare of land that could otherwise be used as carbon sinks for temperate rain forest. He calculated the carbon toll of intensively farmed meat and the carbon cost of producing feed for intensively farmed animals too. It was pretty indisputable.

The climate logic of a plant based diet is very hard to ignore. What's everyone else's excuse? I don't have one - I was vegetarian for many years but now I'm not. I'm trying to cut down on animal products but family logistics make it a challenge. And cows and sheep taste so darned good and are so easy to get.

Surely a flawed argument if the lambs are roaming hills of Scotland where temperate rainforest is unlikely to grow?

As with all of these things, there is no magic bullet. If everyone switches to plant based food we're probably fucked as well because it will all be intensively farmed (see almond and soy farming for serious damage being done)

We eat far too much meat, that definitely a given, we need a much higher plant based percentage in our diets, but monoculture and any form of intensive farming is bad for the planet. Some of the biggest dairy units in the world are in.....Saudi Arabia, on the lush grasslands there.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I've eaten less and less meat since moving in with Mr Not a Blacksmith (he's vegetarian) and because we like to cook together that's been the result, there's just a few dishes where I'll add chicken aor fish nd he'll occasionally eat fish.

My "excuse" per se is I'd struggle to get enough protein on a fully plant based diet (I weightlift and have found a certain amount of protein helps keep my Fibromyalgia less grumpy) - I have a vegan friend who's having a nightmare hitting a daily amount. We've switched to using tofu in recipes which has helped a bit, but it is a lot harder to meet a target when you don't have meat and fish. Having said that, if we do ever reach the point of available lab-grown meat, I'll be all over it.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 17 August 2022 - 05:33 AM

[Mezla PigDog]

Macros, on 17 August 2022 - 05:11 AM, said:

Surely a flawed argument if the lambs are roaming hills of Scotland where temperate rainforest is unlikely to grow?

No it would be forest. Maybe not the highest peaks but I think most of the country would be forest if you took us idiots away. I read elsewhere that the obsession with the Amazon rain forest takes the heat off Europeans not focussing on preserving and reintroducing our own forests.

Here's the article My link

If you look at the percentages of land given over to animal pasture vs growing crops and I'd say it's pretty indisputable. Of course what you replace it with has to be sensible. Lucky I like tofu I guess.... Need to up my wild venison intake!

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 17 August 2022 - 05:58 AM

[Maark Abbott]

Same issue here minus the fibro. To hit calorie and protein goals on a purely plant based diet I would have to be eating so much that I'd get sick of eating. I would have zero issue with lab grown meat though and tbh if the production of it is markedly less damaging I see it as an absolute win.

[Macros]

Mezla PigDog, on 17 August 2022 - 05:55 AM, said:

Macros, on 17 August 2022 - 05:11 AM, said:

Surely a flawed argument if the lambs are roaming hills of Scotland where temperate rainforest is unlikely to grow?

No it would be forest. Maybe not the highest peaks but I think most of the country would be forest if you took us idiots away. I read elsewhere that the obsession with the Amazon rain forest takes the heat off Europeans not focussing on preserving and reintroducing our own forests.

Here's the article My link

If you look at the percentages of land given over to animal pasture vs growing crops and I'd say it's pretty indisputable. Of course what you replace it with has to be sensible. Lucky I like tofu I guess.... Need to up my wild venison intake!

Interesting.

I'll meet you halfway, we'll plant spaced out trees on our grazing lands, some nice shade for the cattle.

Counterpoint in the tofu, isn't that soy based? Without and facts or time to investigate to back this up, isn't soy farming just as culpable for rainforest clearing as the beef units in Brazil?

As I maintain, intensive farming of any kind is problematic, hence why there is no magic bullet here. At a base level we can feed the world no problems at the moment, but at what cost in the long term? There's simply too many of the virus known as humanity. I'm not recommending a cull by the way, we just need to work smarter with our food production on every front, more balanced diets all round, less wastage and far far more rotation and little or no monoculture farming

Says Macros who can't even get his dad to step off annual cropping

[James Hutton]

Macros, on 17 August 2022 - 07:22 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 17 August 2022 - 05:55 AM, said:

Macros, on 17 August 2022 - 05:11 AM, said:

Surely a flawed argument if the lambs are roaming hills of Scotland where temperate rainforest is unlikely to grow?

No it would be forest. Maybe not the highest peaks but I think most of the country would be forest if you took us idiots away. I read elsewhere that the obsession with the Amazon rain forest takes the heat off Europeans not focussing on preserving and reintroducing our own forests.

Here's the article My link

If you look at the percentages of land given over to animal pasture vs growing crops and I'd say it's pretty indisputable. Of course what you replace it with has to be sensible. Lucky I like tofu I guess.... Need to up my wild venison intake!

Interesting.

I'll meet you halfway, we'll plant spaced out trees on our grazing lands, some nice shade for the cattle.

Counterpoint in the tofu, isn't that soy based? Without and facts or time to investigate to back this up, isn't soy farming just as culpable for rainforest clearing as the beef units in Brazil?

As I maintain, intensive farming of any kind is problematic, hence why there is no magic bullet here. At a base level we can feed the world no problems at the moment, but at what cost in the long term? There's simply too many of the virus known as humanity. I'm not recommending a cull by the way, we just need to work smarter with our food production on every front, more balanced diets all round, less wastage and far far more rotation and little or no monoculture farming

Says Macros who can't even get his dad to step off annual cropping

Please note that deforestation in the Amazon Rainforest for soy farming is not driven by human consumption of soy-based foods like tofu and tempeh: the soy grown there is predominantly used as feed for meat and dairy livestock (with biofuels, industry and vegetable oils as runners up), while pasture-land for beef production is an even bigger factor, as you mentioned.
https://ourworldindata.org/soy
I've been eating vegan for over a decade, so if any of you want some practical support or help with eating less meat and/or dairy, ask!

This post has been edited by James Hutton: 17 August 2022 - 07:48 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

While it's true that overfishing drastically reduced the oyster population in the late 19th century, that's apparently not an issue with modern oyster farms:

'Oyster farms account for 95 percent of all oyster consumption and have a minimal negative impact on their ecosystems; there are even nonprofit projects devoted to cultivating oysters as a way to improve water quality. Since so many oysters are farmed, there's little danger of overfishing. No forests are cleared for oysters, no fertilizer is needed, and no grain goes to waste to feed them—they have a diet of plankton, which is about as close to the bottom of the food chain as you can get. Oyster cultivation also avoids many of the negative side effects of plant agriculture: There are no bees needed to pollinate oysters, no pesticides required to kill off other insects, and for the most part, oyster farms operate without the collateral damage of accidentally killing other animals during harvesting.

[...] oysters, as far as we can tell, belong with plants in almost every ethically relevant way [except that they provide more usable protein].'

https://slate.com/hu...at-oysters.html

'A dozen oysters can contain as much protein as a 4oz steak [...] flooding the streets of London, where they were mainly eaten by the working class. Found on almost every street corner, they were the original fast food. [...] By the latter half of the Victorian era, the native oyster beds were exhausted due to pollution and overfishing'

A Brief History Of… Oysters

OTOH overfishing is a potential issue for some of the fish---for example herring and sardines---that are better for the environment than plants on a per-nutrient basis. But these are all great sources of protein.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 August 2022 - 12:24 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'only 0.6 kilograms of carbon dioxide produced per kilogram of mussels[...] a much smaller carbon footprint than even lentils'

Two New Books Explore the Impact of a Climate Change Diet

'Beyond the fact that mussels and sardines (and the other mollusks and small fish) are incredibly tasty and environmentally-friendly, they are really good for you too. Mussels and sardines are loaded with protein, iron and omega-3 fats and are very low in mercury.'

Mussels & sardines: tasty, cheap and a low carbon footprint

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 August 2022 - 12:35 PM

[Macros]

Did not realise so much soy went to animal feed, the height of my interaction with soy is soy sauce.

[Mezla PigDog]

Macros, on 17 August 2022 - 05:05 PM, said:

Did not realise so much soy went to animal feed, the height of my interaction with soy is soy sauce.

Yeah that's the basic key to the climate bonus of plant based diets. Looking at it crudely we do twice as much work as we need to when eating animals - once wasting space to grow the feed and then wasting space and energy to grow the animal. And the conversion factor to the protein amount isn't efficient - to make it more efficient you intensively farm both the feed and the animal and then burn even more energy and kill biodiversity. And the majority of animal feed soy is genetically modified too, if people have anything against that.

I watched a talk at a conference once about feed conversion factors and it was terrifying the way it is industrialised and the margins of creating feed with a tiny improvement in feed conversion factor. And there are only a few massive companies involved - with significant lobbying interests I expect! Profit margins are minuscule but when you factor it up by the quantity of meat eaten and the small number of companies involved, the net profit is still mega bucks.

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 17 August 2022 - 05:26 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

There may be environmentally friendly ways to eat mammal or avian meat---from animals culled for environmental reasons (venison, rabbit, and wild fowl can be delicious---but unfortunately the US doesn't allow hunters to sell meat from their kills), or from euthanized or (perhaps) recently deceased animals (it's unethical to let it go to waste---and horse, dog, and cat meat can be delicious (in China dog meat is referred to as 'fragrant meat')).

Granted, these don't provide nearly as much meat (or fat). (And I'm not sure about the carbon footprint of inspecting, transporting, and storing the meat....) But governments should start allowing these.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 August 2022 - 05:28 PM

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 August 2022 - 05:33 AM, said:

We've switched to using tofu in recipes which has helped a bit, but it is a lot harder to meet a target when you don't have meat and fish.

Man, I have found some insanely delicious tofu-based meals. I really like it when it's cooked in interesting ways.

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 August 2022 - 05:33 AM, said:

Having said that, if we do ever reach the point of available lab-grown meat, I'll be all over it.

Yep, sign me up to. If I can get the benefits of a meat diet without the detrimental aspects of it, I'm down.

For ourselves, my Wife and I started about a year ago eating one or two veggie/vegan meals a week, which we feel helps reduce our imprint a bit just by not eating a meat product with every dinner.

Also, please try the Thug Kitchen Broccoli Chickpea Burrito. It is without a doubt the BEST veggie recipe we make and it always comes out delicious.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Canada also bans hunters from selling meat (from environmentally motivated culls or otherwise), but the UK allows it. Culled wild boar is on the menu too. 'In certain parts of the UK, where wild sheep and goats exist, these animals can only be hunted as wild game under certain circumstances.'
wild-game-guide.pdf

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 August 2022 - 07:36 PM

[Malankazooie]

You guys ever just go with a crudité meal? (is it pronounced crew-dee-tay?). I go that option often. Dr. Oz says, thanks to Dark Brandon, shopping for the ingredients is expensive.