[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 16 October 2022 - 12:35 AM, said:

Sauron is not complexly evil. He's literally the first lieutenant of the Middle Earth version of Satan. That's a stupid take by the show runners…Morgoth and Sauron are forces of nature evil. They don't have complexity. Like you don't need to explore what makes them tick. What makes them tick is being evil for evils sake.

1.

'Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. [...] He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do[...] But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his plans, the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.'

'Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. [...] it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the Music than did Melkor'

Notes on motives in THE SILMARILLION (1993). By J.R.R. Tolkien // Fair Use Repository (fair-use.org)


2.

What is Mormon Satan like?...


'"That which Satan sought [...] was to force all men to do the will of God. Using compulsion or force he offered to 'save' every person, and for so doing he demanded the honor and the glory that belongs to God. In contrast to Satan's proposition, the Lord's plan permitted individual progress by giving us the right to choose between good and evil" [...]

Since the beginning he has been opposed to God's plan of agency. Satan, when he can, upholds dictatorships, restricting the rights and liberties of people to choose that which is right or good. He also uses fear to his advantage. Fear can be a powerful motivator to get men and women to either behave wickedly or refrain from behaving righteously. Fear is the antithesis of faith, and if Satan can fill a person's heart with fear, there will be no place for faith in God or His love and mercy.Force is not Satan's only tool. His best chance is to be subtle and cunning. He flatters and justifies, tells lies and half-truths, and sows doubt and disharmony. In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Nephi described Satan's tactics in this way:

"And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance."'

Satan - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

But it seems like Tsundoku's right that Tolkien's Satan = Morgoth (motivated by pride, first to rebel, etc.), not Sauron.

At least to an extent, Tolkien's (and Mormonism's) treatment of Sauron as the Big Bad is an attempt to justify the very agency ('freedom') that permits humans to be 'evil' (and bad) and allows the natural world to be terrible for humanity (... and causes human suffering, and all bad things).

For Tolkien, Sauron also = industrialization fused with science and (bio)technology, dominating and restructuring the 'natural' order (dominating in part by knowing---Sauron as 'eye'). The antithesis of the traditional rural hobbit-life.

So perhaps Sauron is the hero, and the true villain (or vilein-glorifier, who would have most of us return to being vileins) is Tolkien....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 16 October 2022 - 02:37 PM

[Tavvar]

Well, my computer doesn't seem to want me to type anything today (this is my third try to write this). I have seen some people write from Tolkien's letters that Sauron repented, then fell back into Evil during the Second Age, which lines up with what the Showrunners are doing. While it seems like Season 2 may have been a better story, it seems they felt this slow intro would be better for casual fans (and its seems to have been, the only story complaints I've seen are from Tolkien fans about it not matching how they think the Second Age went). They could've done some things better (hello Adar asking Arondir to "deliver a message" (that was very bad)), for the most part I found it to be a very good story. At this point I trust them to improve in Season 2.

I have seen several Tolkien nerds arguing about if this matches the story, and it seems that depends on exactly how much of Tolkien's writings they have read. I think some of the things used or referenced in the show come from obscure Tolkien notes and letters, that very few people have read. (I've only read The Hobbit, LOTR, and 2/3s of The Silmarillion, so I don't know the lore enough to be upset, and I don't really care much for changing canon between mediums anymore: tell the best story for that medium!)

Anyway, I am really looking forward to Season 2 after coming into Season 1 with rather low expectations.

[champ]

Tsundoku, on 16 October 2022 - 10:05 AM, said:

Huh, something was bothering me and I figured it out.

Spoiler

Ep 7, watching Galadriel and Theo wandering about after Mt Doom blew it's load. Not only did they totally screw up Finrod's death much earlier in the first ep - I guess the bit they got right was the fact it was Sauron - but poor old Celeborn was killed off.
Totally contradicting the books and the movies. They actually didn't need to do that. Why would they? Poor form.

I think that may form a plot point later on, that they think he's dead but maybe find out he's captured or something and they got to rescue him.

[Tiste Simeon]

Re: Sauron being nuanced I'm with QT and TRB. Sauron doesn't need to be nuanced. I know the good v evil stuff is cliché but at the same time, when was the last time you saw a thing where the bad guy was unrelentingly, unapologetically evil? Like not a lick of good in him? I can't think of anything recently because bad guys are becoming more layered. Which is great and makes for fantastic stories.

But sometimes you need to go old school. Sauron is nothing but evil and will never be anything but evil. And his only motivation is to crush good. And he has the power and means to do it. Anything else is unnecessary.

[Cyphon]

I don't think he is nuanced. He just uses different tools to get what he wants. Different tacks and uses of people to get his outcome. Pure evil doesn't mean genociding as his only tactic...

[Cause]

Sauron feigned repentance. Forgive the details, I dont remember it very wekk. At the end of the first age after Morgoth was defeated, He offered to surrender to the leader of the Mair (no idea what his name) in exchanger for a pardon basically. The Leader of the Mair said he could take him back to the valar to face their judgment and punishment which would be part of his repentance. Sauron decided to not go back to valinor and instead to make a play to become a dark lord in his own right rather than face judgement.

Whatever his origins (wanting to create order) Sauron is not complicated evil. He wants to be the tyrant over all middle earth. Hitler isn't complicated evil because he wanted to make Germany stronger.

I also don't want to contradict the word of Tolkien so if he really said much different I suppose he would have to be right but explaining Saurons Downfall doesnt absolve him nor do I think it is meant to. He fought in WW1, a battle in which I think both sides needed/wanted victory and also in which soldiers on both sides couldnt understand why they were fighting and dying. LotR is his answer, the forces of good vs an evil tyrant. Its as clear cut as it gets. Today we make fun of it as cliche and childish but at the time it was powerful.

Also the show runners basicall saying season 2 is where we get what we want and we should all come back and watch it, but season 1 was necessary is pure marketing talk. Based on season 1 its clear the show writers dont care to do an adaption, dont have the rights to do a proper adaption or some combination of the two.

Watching Sauron trick elvish gemsmiths over 300 years would clearly be a terrible story but a show called the Rings of powers only dedicates half of the final episode to the titular objects. The whole of the rest of the series involves things based on no source material. The show outright contradicts the books and lore in multiple ways and also outright fabricates a story around mithril. I dont think the show is good enough to stand on its own, is too loose an daption to please the book fans and is no where near as exciting as the movies either.

This post has been edited by Cause: 16 October 2022 - 09:18 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Cause, on 16 October 2022 - 09:12 PM, said:

Sauron feigned repentance. Forgive the details, I dont remember it very wekk. At the end of the first age after Morgoth was defeated, He offered to surrender to the leader of the Mair (no idea what his name) in exchanger for a pardon basically. The Leader of the Mair said he could take him back to the valar to face their judgment and punishment which would be part of his repentance. Sauron decided to not go back to valinor and instead to make a play to become a dark lord in his own right rather than face judgement.

Whatever his origins (wanting to create order) Sauron is not complicated evil. He wants to be the tyrant over all middle earth. Hitler isn't complicated evil because he wanted to make Germany stronger.

I also don't want to contradict the word of Tolkien so if he really said much different I suppose he would have to be right but explaining Saurons Downfall doesnt absolve him nor do I think it is meant to. He fought in WW1, a battle in which I think both sides needed/wanted victory and also in which soldiers on both sides couldnt understand why they were fighting and dying. LotR is his answer, the forces of good vs an evil tyrant. Its as clear cut as it gets. Today we make fun of it as cliche and childish but at the time it was powerful.

Also the show runners basicall saying season 2 is where we get what we want and we should all come back and watch it, but season 1 was necessary is pure marketing talk. Based on season 1 its clear the show writers dont care to do an adaption, dont have the rights to do a proper adaption or some combination of the two.

Watching Sauron trick elvish gemsmiths over 300 years would clearly be a terrible story but a show called the Rings of powers only dedicates half of the final episode to the titular objects. The whole of the rest of the series involves things based on no source material. The show outright contradicts the books and lore in multiple ways and also outright fabricates a story around mithril. I dont think the show is good enough to stand on its own, is too loose an daption to please the book fans and is no where near as exciting as the movies either.

Of course there major differences between Second Age Sauron and Third Age Sauron....

Tolkien: ‘In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any "rational being" is wholly evil. Satan fell. [...] Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.'

'Some reviewers have called the whole thing [...] just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps [...] in people in a hurry'

Tolkien, Sauron and Evil in Tolkien's Letters

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'At the beginning of the Second Age [Sauron] was still beautiful to look at and was not wholly evil, not unless all "reformers" are evil even before pride eats them up. The particular High-Elves concerned were always on the side of "science and technology" as we should call it, desired Sauron's genuine knowledge [...] no more wicked (but in the same peril) as Catholics researching poisonous gasses or explosives – things not innately evil but pretty certain to serve evil ends.'

Letter 153 [Summary] - Tolkien Gateway

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 October 2022 - 12:07 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Watched the finale last night.

Overall, we're on board now. The last three episodes were a decent improvement and things feel like they're moving forwards at last. It feels leadenly predictable a lot of the time but I can live with that.

I would still say there were a lot of beats that "nearly but not quite landed" and I think that's down to the writing, which could definitely take some improvement going forwards. Specific thoughts for episode 8 below

Spoiler

I liked the character of Sadoc (loved his stuff in episode 7) but the conflict with the cultists and build up to his death just didn't quite work for me. Nori's family are sweet and I liked their interaction when she left, but somehow again the entirety felt slightly off. I've come round to the idea of the Stranger being Gandalf and it was nice to see him interacting more in the finale. For goodness sake though, stop lifting dialogue word for word from Jackson's films. I'm pretty sure people would have got that he's Gandalf without giving him his exact line from Moria.

Making Miriel blind is interesting and I loved all her scenes with Elendil - Lloyd Owen is still doing the best acting in the show. Genuinely interested to see how the Numenor storyline will progress.

Halbrand as Sauron was handled better than I expected, although I think it's a real shame that Galadriel has had to spend the series being an idiot to make the reveal work. Enjoyed the build up and sequence of creating the Three Rings. I'm assuming there will be a future plot point where she discovers Celeborn isn't dead and can affect his rescue.

Yay Adar isn't dead!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 17 October 2022 - 07:08 AM

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 16 October 2022 - 12:35 AM, said:

Sauron is not complexly evil. He's literally the first lieutenant of the Middle Earth version of Satan. That's a stupid take by the show runners…Morgoth and Sauron are forces of nature evil. They don't have complexity. Like you don't need to explore what makes them tick. What makes them tick is being evil for evils sake.

related trope: For The Evulz

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

TL;DR according to Tolkien,

1. Second Age Sauron starts out complexly evil / trying to improve the economic and technological well-being of elves humans etc.
2. Third Age Sauron hasn't become absolute evil, but is as close as it's possible for a 'rational' being to be.

Exact quote from Tolkien's letter:

'at the beginning of the Second Age he [...] was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all "reformers" who want to hurry up with "reconstruction" and "reorganization"are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. [...] his motives and those of the Elves seemed to go partly together: the healing of the desolate lands. Sauron found their weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. [...] the Elves came their nearest to falling to "magic" and machinery.'

Tolkien, Sauron and Evil in Tolkien's Letters by Rogorn

... as opposed to Tolkien's Catholicism, and living (and suffering terribly) as the One True Go* intended....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 October 2022 - 12:45 PM

[Tavvar]

About the Mithril story, in the show Elrond talks about how that is a myth. The showrunners are not making that the canon creation story of mithril, its just an origin myth that might be plausibly believable to the characters in the world if they were desperate enough to believe it, which it seems Celebrimbor was. (The showrunners have pointed this out in interviews.)

This season may have been a bit too much of a reintroduction to Middle-Earth, but I can understand why they showrunners felt that was necessary. The movies came out 20 years ago (I feel old now...), most people probably needed a reintroduction. I look forward into delving more into this story and seeing where they take it!

This post has been edited by Tavvar: 20 October 2022 - 06:53 PM

[flea]

I have to admit I was hate-watching the show for a while. When mithril is shown to be the necessary ingredient to saving the Elves in Middle-Earth I was incredibly scornful. I came around a bit, however, when I was reminded that one of the main points of the three rings was to preserve, and we know how they lost their power once the One was destroyed. I think it would have been more interesting if we saw the Elves invest their power into the rings, as we know Sauron does with the one. Since Tolkien never informs us about how the three were created, however, I began to buy, or make peace, with the plot device of the mithril. It was also cool to see Sauron's help in their making.

Gandalf appearance really annoys me, since we know he does not arrive until 1000 in the Third Age. It will make more sense if we never see him again, but then what is the point of him coming at all?

[Tiste Simeon]

flea, on 20 October 2022 - 10:04 PM, said:

Gandalf appearance really annoys me, since we know he does not arrive until 1000 in the Third Age. It will make more sense if we never see him again, but then what is the point of him coming at all?

A wizard arrives precisely when he means to!

[Tiste Simeon]

So, not related to the show, but Audible has suggested to me The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Fall of Gondolin. I kind of want to get into all of it, do you think they're worth a read (or rather, listen)?

[flea]

I like the Silmarillion. It lacks the better narrative of LOTR, but it's great mythology.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I'd go for Silmarillion first, if you're going to give them a go. Fall of Gondolin is an extended version of a story in Silmarillion, so I don't know how well it would work without the surrounding context. Unfinished Tales is enjoyable but very much its own thing (and again, one of the best stories in it is The Mariner's Wife, which works better if you already know about Numenor).

The first bit of Silmarillion, The Music of the Ainur, is basically never relevant again so if you find yourself bored of it, it's only short and worth pushing through. It's just a creation myth. The next bit is a list of the main Valar and Maiar, some of which you'll already know of and some of which (Aule in particular) were mentioned in the Rings of Power.

It's not the easiest read and it took me a lot of flicking to the family trees at the back of my copy (way too many people with very similar names) but I've always felt it was worth sticking with once it got going. The scope of Tolkien's vision really comes alive and the elves of the First Age were a whole magnitude more powerful than their Third Age counterparts. I've always found it tragically beautiful, but I also fully understand people not enjoying or sticking with it.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 23 October 2022 - 05:00 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I did read Silmarillion a long time ago and overall enjoyed it so I'll follow your advice and get that first.

[Tiste Simeon]

So I'm at my in laws for a little while and my father in law is a big Tolkein fan. I was on about wanting to get Children of Hurin and an hour later he presented me with a copy telling me I could have it as long as I want it! Looking forward to this...

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 26 October 2022 - 07:19 PM, said:

So I'm at my in laws for a little while and my father in law is a big Tolkein fan. I was on about wanting to get Children of Hurin and an hour later he presented me with a copy telling me I could have it as long as I want it! Looking forward to this...

That's a good one! Enjoy!

Remember that the Silmarillion stuff is denser. Just think about it like you're reading the a Middle Earth history book if it was written by stodgy elves. LOL