[Itwæs Nom]

If Nevyn was fascist out of the 2 of us he has more gain out of this than I'd have because in that scenario fascists get both their policy plus investigation to use as they want, while I'd only get fascists a policy and give the power to liberals

How's the policy count?

[Tattersail_]

Cause, on 22 February 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

Absolutely impossible for two fascists to accuse each other and lie at the same time. For example, if D'rek and I were fascist then I could just have said I had 3 fascist cards and D'rek could agree with that. The fact that we both disagree means that one of us is lying, in this case, D'rek. The only people who should lie are Fascists, it does not benefit liberals to lie whatsoever.

Not impossible at all. strategy. If the one lies and accuses the other the other will quickly deduce the game and lie back. Then one of them is almost guaranteed a stealthy entry into the liberal faction. I don't want to break my own rules and jump to wild speculation here but the fact that you say you cant see this worries me.

The worst case scenario is for us to become convinced a fascist is a liberal. Because then that means we will eventually conclude a liberal is a fascist in his place because we know their are 3. That's a major power imbalance that favors the fascists.

The reveal power is dangerous. Nevyn is currently himself 50% suspect. If he uses his power on Drek or tats I cant necessarily trust him. He could be a fascist smoke screening for a fascist. if he reveals himself he is a biased source. If he reveals Nom he is hardly gonna to say he is a liberal because that would mean he outs himself. If he used it on me Dolmen messremb etc it could be a fascist sowing confusion into our midst by mislabeling someone (worst case scenario realized). It would create more paths in the labyrinth of speculation than it closes. Only if we could on a subsequent turn reveal his own loyalty could we begin to trust the picture that forms.

Also am I correct he cant reveal hitler. He can only reveal a fascist allegiant, who would than have a one in 3 chance of being hitler?

The major problem is there isn't one group of people saying the other is lying. There are two groups. Hitler would not or should not lie. He needs to be seen as Liberal. What you are suggesting is that say D'rek and Myself are fascists then there is no fascist amongst Nevyn/Nom meaning a Liberal would have lied.

Impossible. Stop trying to paint it as anything else.

[Tattersail_]

Itwæs Nom, on 22 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

If Nevyn was fascist out of the 2 of us he has more gain out of this than I'd have because in that scenario fascists get both their policy plus investigation to use as they want, while I'd only get fascists a policy and give the power to liberals

How's the policy count?

Are you saying you got 2 fascist policies?

[Cause]

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

Impossible. Stop trying to paint it as anything else.

Okay I now see your point. Which is valid one.

Yes my example only makes sense if all 3 fascists including Hitler are taking part in the deception. However I disagree now that you point it out that's its impossible. Perfect way to hide Hitler perhaps?

What are the other powers? Assassination, choose next president and one other. Is there any other kinds of loyalty revealing mechanic? Without one I don't see how we can accept the outcome of Nevyns reveal this turn?

[Tattersail_]

Cause, on 22 February 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

Impossible. Stop trying to paint it as anything else.

Okay I now see your point. Which is valid one.

Yes my example only makes sense if all 3 fascists including Hitler are taking part in the deception. However I disagree now that you point it out that's its impossible. Perfect way to hide Hitler perhaps?

What are the other powers? Assassination, choose next president and one other. Is there any other kinds of loyalty revealing mechanic? Without one I don't see how we can accept the outcome of Nevyns reveal this turn?

Hitler needs to be enacted Chancellor for best chance of winning. From what you are saying I think we need to investigate you.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

She did, so she supported Nom as President but not as Chancellor, what would be the reasoning behind that?

D'rek could you please answer this.

[Itwæs Nom]

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 22 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

If Nevyn was fascist out of the 2 of us he has more gain out of this than I'd have because in that scenario fascists get both their policy plus investigation to use as they want, while I'd only get fascists a policy and give the power to liberals

How's the policy count?

Are you saying you got 2 fascist policies?

Said as much yesterday

[Tattersail_]

Just making sure so there is no doubt

[Vengeance]

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

[Tattersail_]

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

Impossible to do though, we have to pick every 3 Governments in minimum, and only 1 chancellor can be that again, what do you propose? If Hitler is hiding amongst the you 4 like I said above that's dangerous to voting in Hitler as chancellor for them to win.

[Tattersail_]

Or do you propose we move forward like that until we get another fascists policy, once we are on two then we have to be more careful.

[Tattersail_]

Ie once we have two fascist policies, because what happens when we are on 2 fascist policies and Hitler is chancellor? If he chooses a third policy on his term is that automatic win for them? Or does the third fascist policy have to come before he is chancellor?

That'd mean we'd HAVE to be really picky who we choose as chancellor, ie pick those out of the dodgy couples to avoid possible Hitlers.

[Vengeance]

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

Impossible to do though, we have to pick every 3 Governments in minimum, and only 1 chancellor can be that again, what do you propose? If Hitler is hiding amongst the you 4 like I said above that's dangerous to voting in Hitler as chancellor for them to win.

4? I don't trust 4 people in this game. I only trust 3 me, dolman, and Mess. I am not going to trust anything that Nyven says but that also means that I can no longer trust Nom.

[D'rek]

I'm here, catching up

[Tattersail_]

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

Impossible to do though, we have to pick every 3 Governments in minimum, and only 1 chancellor can be that again, what do you propose? If Hitler is hiding amongst the you 4 like I said above that's dangerous to voting in Hitler as chancellor for them to win.

4? I don't trust 4 people in this game. I only trust 3 me, dolman, and Mess. I am not going to trust anything that Nyven says but that also means that I can no longer trust Nom.

Fair enough, if you are Liberal, then can you say you'd trust Dol and Mess not to be Hitler? That could be a game decision

[Vengeance]

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

Impossible to do though, we have to pick every 3 Governments in minimum, and only 1 chancellor can be that again, what do you propose? If Hitler is hiding amongst the you 4 like I said above that's dangerous to voting in Hitler as chancellor for them to win.

4? I don't trust 4 people in this game. I only trust 3 me, dolman, and Mess. I am not going to trust anything that Nyven says but that also means that I can no longer trust Nom.

Fair enough, if you are Liberal, then can you say you'd trust Dol and Mess not to be Hitler? That could be a game decision

No. Not yet. But more then I would Trust Nom or you or Nyven or Drek or Cause to be hitler.

[Tattersail_]

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 22 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

So the problem with that I have is that I am not going to believe anything that Nyven is going to say with regards to the investigation. I don't trust that he isn't a fascists so anything that he says about a find is also completely untrustworthy.

I currently will only be voting only for governments that contain at least one of either Dolman, Mess or myself.

Impossible to do though, we have to pick every 3 Governments in minimum, and only 1 chancellor can be that again, what do you propose? If Hitler is hiding amongst the you 4 like I said above that's dangerous to voting in Hitler as chancellor for them to win.

4? I don't trust 4 people in this game. I only trust 3 me, dolman, and Mess. I am not going to trust anything that Nyven says but that also means that I can no longer trust Nom.

Fair enough, if you are Liberal, then can you say you'd trust Dol and Mess not to be Hitler? That could be a game decision

No. Not yet. But more then I would Trust Nom or you or Nyven or Drek or Cause to be hitler.

Good. Now Nevyn HAS to do a find, who do you suggest he use it on and why?

[Dolmen 2.0]

Actually I don't think he has to use it.

He should but I don't think he has to...

[D'rek]

General impressions of the lead-up and votes: We didn't have *that* much discussion on this one, compared to some previous votes, and yet it garnered 5 JAs and passed. Especially interesting to note that Tatts and Cause, two of the most suspected people voted JA.

This post from Tatts right before the vote jumped out at me:

Tattersail_, on 21 February 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

Messremb, on 21 February 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

Nevyn, on 20 February 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

Messremb, on 20 February 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

Bollocks, dropped the ball sorry. Manic weekend & week.

Vote is in. I'm a no because with a stacked deck we're unlikely to get information on Nom as he'll likely get 2 fascist policies. It's also a great chance for Nevynn to pass two and discard a liberal. I dislike a president getting his election through when we know so little about his own proclivities.

He says after voting ja to every other president having known nothing about them.

Yes, earlier on when there was a reasonable chance of a liberal card being present that was a good basis for seeing how people play. When the cards are stacked in favour of fascists the last people I want in power are unknown because it'd be far too easy for a fascist president (i.e. you) to say you had 3 fascist policies so had to pass 2 when in fact you'd discarded a liberal - and we would have no way of knowing as the cards would be put together and shuffled again immediately after you.

I've already voted but you make a lick of sense. I trust Nom would pass a Liberal policy as he has before, and I am sure that Nevyn would want to pass off as a Liberal so thought if there was a chance of Liberal policy that these two could pass it.

Feels to me like Tatts is pre-supposing the outcome and/or signaling to a partner how they should act.

Obviously I'm still suspicious in your eyes and on my side I'm biased against Tatts since I already know for sure he's fascy, but still I'd like you all to consider this/take a look.




Impressions of the policy results: Nevyn claims he got at least 1 liberal, and passed 1 of each. ItNom claims he was only given 2 fascists.

Normally I'd agree with Cause that this makes both of them suspicious, but I'm not so sure in this case. Based on the number of cards leftover (1 Lib, 4 Fasc I think?) Nevyn was in a really good position to claim he simply picked up 3 Fascist cards and had to pass 2 to ItNom, leaving no lies. Of course it's all WIFOM, but I think the Find ability adds another element to it.

Let's say Nevy is fascist. It's extremely doubtful he's going to take a risk of passing up the Find ability. So he's definitely going to pass 2 fascist policies, in order to be 100% sure he gets the Find and can lie about it. Therefore he can either:

a) Pass 2 fascist cards, and say he had no choice because he picked up 3 fascist cards. This is extremely plausible given the card counts left. People won't 100% trust it, like anything, but it doesn't add any new suspicion to him.

B} Pass 2 fascist cards, but say he passed 1/1. Immediately ItNom will call him on the lie and he garners a ton of extra scrutiny/distrust.

I don't see much reason for Nevyn to take option B. Why invite the extra suspicion on yourself and throw away the opportunity to pseudo-clear someone with your Find?




Post-results thoughts: Tatts, what's with the sudden tidal wave of posts and all the throwing out of random suggestions like find proposals, telling people to let you vindicate yourself as president (like that's gonna happen), etc? Feels like you suddenly got agitated and are causing a distraction.

And Venge is clamping down on who he's willing to trust... obviously this is a major turning point for everyone's trust in the game (and I imagine it is like that most times in this game), but I don't think clamping down is going to accomplish anything right now (well, unless you're hitler).

[Nevyn]

Dolmen 2.0, on 22 February 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Actually I don't think he has to use it.

He should but I don't think he has to...

Why would anyone ever opt not to investigate?