[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 27 November 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 November 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Same could be said of Nightchill's involvement, but asides to the main story are a pretty common part of these books.

Nightchill is more than an aside, though.

Because a fascinating part of this series is showing the plotting of other powers, including the Azath houses themselves, into the formation of the empire, what becomes of Shadow, and by extension, all that happens in the main series. Nightchill is our window into that, through both her POV and her conversations with other ascendants.

And because Nightchill at some point becomes an imperial High Mage. They almost have to tie her in. Kallor only needs a tie in if the story is going to extend all the way to him signing on with Brood.

Now that you mention it, look at it that way - with the two of them ending up on opposite sides of the Genabackis campaign - and it actually ties closer to the story.

[worry]

Abyss, on 27 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

worry, on 24 November 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

...The Wound is 100% the Imperial Warren. Kinda wish Kallor would have sensed its breach somehow.

Why? Kallor's never shown any sensitivity to the Impy warren before.

Oh, just for fan service reasons, nothing to do with plot besides extra weaving of things together (though now that you ask, it strikes me it could have been used as a reason to draw him to Malaz Isle -- knowing something was up, seeing Nightchill is around, etc. -- and then once he fails, just not caring anymore -- the IW ultimately just another excuse to be an a-hole).

In terms of whether this will just be a trilogy, I think that's just how it was pitched. It's a book deal type of thing, and ICE had three major sections in empire history he wanted to get to. There's plenty of stories left to tell after that. And we know from SE that Path to Ascendancy is selling. I'm hopeful.

[Andorion]

worry, on 27 November 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

worry, on 24 November 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

...The Wound is 100% the Imperial Warren. Kinda wish Kallor would have sensed its breach somehow.

Why? Kallor's never shown any sensitivity to the Impy warren before.

Oh, just for fan service reasons, nothing to do with plot besides extra weaving of things together (though now that you ask, it strikes me it could have been used as a reason to draw him to Malaz Isle -- knowing something was up, seeing Nightchill is around, etc. -- and then once he fails, just not caring anymore -- the IW ultimately just another excuse to be an a-hole).

In terms of whether this will just be a trilogy, I think that's just how it was pitched. It's a book deal type of thing, and ICE had three major sections in empire history he wanted to get to. There's plenty of stories left to tell after that. And we know from SE that Path to Ascendancy is selling. I'm hopeful.

It would be awesome if they signed ICE up for three more books after wherever the third one ends. I want to see the formation of the Guard, the taking of at least a portion of Seven Cities and hopefully some early BB.

[Vengeance]

Man I just finished that and it was awesome. Such a fun great read.

[Varandas]

I might have misunderstood it in that moment, but to me it seemed the result of Kallor's stroyline was him wounding Nightchill to a degree so that she would not be able to use her whole power. I might confuse the effect of the "smoke" he used to conceal himself with a permanent effect, but that is what I took away from that moment. It would explain why Nightchill is "only" a High Mage with her kind of power, even if it may be explained by the fact that she is restraining herself.

[Andorion]

Varandas, on 28 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I might have misunderstood it in that moment, but to me it seemed the result of Kallor's stroyline was him wounding Nightchill to a degree so that she would not be able to use her whole power. I might confuse the effect of the "smoke" he used to conceal himself with a permanent effect, but that is what I took away from that moment. It would explain why Nightchill is "only" a High Mage with her kind of power, even if it may be explained by the fact that she is restraining herself.

I doubt it. Nightchill had to blend in with a seriously powerful and capable mage cadre from Tays to Akaronys, not to mention Kell himself. She would have certainly had to restrain her power or eyebrows would have been raised.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 28 November 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Varandas, on 28 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I might have misunderstood it in that moment, but to me it seemed the result of Kallor's stroyline was him wounding Nightchill to a degree so that she would not be able to use her whole power. I might confuse the effect of the "smoke" he used to conceal himself with a permanent effect, but that is what I took away from that moment. It would explain why Nightchill is "only" a High Mage with her kind of power, even if it may be explained by the fact that she is restraining herself.

I doubt it. Nightchill had to blend in with a seriously powerful and capable mage cadre from Tays to Akaronys, not to mention Kell himself. She would have certainly had to restrain her power or eyebrows would have been raised.

...or they all knew who/what she was (or used to be) and were either pretending they didn't, or it didn't matter.

Tho other than Agayla who may only suspect, no one seems to know that she is Azathanai

Also, we don't know exactly when she joined the Empire as a High Mage - it could have been after Dancer and Kel were already missing or 'dead', but Dancer did encounter her back in LAMENT.

[Mirthmonkey]

Abyss, on 24 November 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 24 November 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

nacht, on 22 November 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

Mirthmonkey, on 22 November 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

I finished the book last night. Loved it. The only bad part is having to wait for the next one.

I think I missed a critical detail or two though, so maybe someone here can help. It's two different but related questions.

Spoiler

1) How does Kellanved know, or even suspect, that the Deadhouse will let he and Dancer come and go?
2) Why does the Deadhouse let them come and go when anyone else with power who tries to enter is attacked and captured by it?

IIRC, when they first manage to enter the Deadhouse, Kellanved says something to Dancer about how he took them through many pieces of Shadow to the front door and no one else could have done it. Dancer is skeptical, thinking maybe the Deadhouse just decided to let them in. More critically though, it lets them leave. Then it lets them apparently come and go as they please, and later other people with them (Dassem and Tayschrenn).

Spoiler

The Azath houses don't always attack, especially if you stay on the path, off the grounds, control your power and knock politely.
In addition, in Dancers Lament, I suspect Gothos and Krul have some somehow blessed Kellanved and Dancer.

Spoiler

This is where the Nightchill POV's come in.

They hint through her eyes at the Azath houses having their own will (she refers to them as cousins), and them being the ones pushing K and D forward. Namely, it is the houses which, with help from Gothos, give K the T'lan Imass 'compass' in the first book. And here they get allowed in and allowed to come and go.

Gothos may know what is going on but is not really driving it. K'rul has some involvement, but that seems to be more about Tay than KD.

Nightchill spends the books trying to figure out why the houses are using K and D

Kel had done some research on the Houses, but it's clear he's guessing much of the time.

Someone, i forget who, maybe Nightchill, makes the point that if you stick to the path and do not attempt to attack the House or take anything from it, it will not attack you.
As for access, back in DG the point was made that at times sheer desperation - or audacity - can work, and other times the House chooses whom to allow in.

Certainly we have precedent for the Azath houses having their own will, but I guess given how central the House is to K and D's rise, I thought we'd learn more. Until the House just decides to let K and D, and later those with them, come and go as they please, it seems like the best they could have hoped for is to knock on the door and get no response. Yet Kellanved has at least a hunch that the House will let them in. I feel like I'm still missing something. It's too important and seems too convenient for K and D. Maybe we'll find out more in the next book, but for obvious reasons this seemed like the book where the role of the Azath would be most thoroughly examined.




On a related note, I'm surprised more mages don't know to stay off the Azath House lawn. These Houses are not unknown to the world, but the D'rek followers chasing Tayschrenn just come charging in to their doom. Dummies! If Azath houses get hungry, that one must really love what Tayschrenn brought it. OM NOM NOM NOM!

[Vengeance]

Mirthmonkey, on 28 November 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Abyss, on 24 November 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 24 November 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

nacht, on 22 November 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

Mirthmonkey, on 22 November 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

I finished the book last night. Loved it. The only bad part is having to wait for the next one.

I think I missed a critical detail or two though, so maybe someone here can help. It's two different but related questions.

Spoiler

1) How does Kellanved know, or even suspect, that the Deadhouse will let he and Dancer come and go?
2) Why does the Deadhouse let them come and go when anyone else with power who tries to enter is attacked and captured by it?

IIRC, when they first manage to enter the Deadhouse, Kellanved says something to Dancer about how he took them through many pieces of Shadow to the front door and no one else could have done it. Dancer is skeptical, thinking maybe the Deadhouse just decided to let them in. More critically though, it lets them leave. Then it lets them apparently come and go as they please, and later other people with them (Dassem and Tayschrenn).

Spoiler

The Azath houses don't always attack, especially if you stay on the path, off the grounds, control your power and knock politely.
In addition, in Dancers Lament, I suspect Gothos and Krul have some somehow blessed Kellanved and Dancer.

Spoiler

This is where the Nightchill POV's come in.

They hint through her eyes at the Azath houses having their own will (she refers to them as cousins), and them being the ones pushing K and D forward. Namely, it is the houses which, with help from Gothos, give K the T'lan Imass 'compass' in the first book. And here they get allowed in and allowed to come and go.

Gothos may know what is going on but is not really driving it. K'rul has some involvement, but that seems to be more about Tay than KD.

Nightchill spends the books trying to figure out why the houses are using K and D

Kel had done some research on the Houses, but it's clear he's guessing much of the time.

Someone, i forget who, maybe Nightchill, makes the point that if you stick to the path and do not attempt to attack the House or take anything from it, it will not attack you.
As for access, back in DG the point was made that at times sheer desperation - or audacity - can work, and other times the House chooses whom to allow in.

Certainly we have precedent for the Azath houses having their own will, but I guess given how central the House is to K and D's rise, I thought we'd learn more. Until the House just decides to let K and D, and later those with them, come and go as they please, it seems like the best they could have hoped for is to knock on the door and get no response. Yet Kellanved has at least a hunch that the House will let them in. I feel like I'm still missing something. It's too important and seems too convenient for K and D. Maybe we'll find out more in the next book, but for obvious reasons this seemed like the book where the role of the Azath would be most thoroughly examined.




On a related note, I'm surprised more mages don't know to stay off the Azath House lawn. These Houses are not unknown to the world, but the D'rek followers chasing Tayschrenn just come charging in to their doom. Dummies! If Azath houses get hungry, that one must really love what Tayschrenn brought it. OM NOM NOM NOM!

ICE like SE before him doesn't give the whole story. From bits we know that Khell knows the Azath better then anyone else. Tays remarks that Khell seems to understand their interaction better then anyone, and that he needs to figure it out if he is to keep up with Khell. We don't know from where that knowledge actually came from, but it is obvious that it came from before he met Dancer.

His figuring out that Shadow has infected all of the warrens and allows for access to everything and that allows him to sneak into the house the first time. Now it could be that once he does so the house sees that he will work toward the same ends as it.

[rant]

Abyss, on 28 November 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 November 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Varandas, on 28 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I might have misunderstood it in that moment, but to me it seemed the result of Kallor's stroyline was him wounding Nightchill to a degree so that she would not be able to use her whole power. I might confuse the effect of the "smoke" he used to conceal himself with a permanent effect, but that is what I took away from that moment. It would explain why Nightchill is "only" a High Mage with her kind of power, even if it may be explained by the fact that she is restraining herself.

I doubt it. Nightchill had to blend in with a seriously powerful and capable mage cadre from Tays to Akaronys, not to mention Kell himself. She would have certainly had to restrain her power or eyebrows would have been raised.

...or they all knew who/what she was (or used to be) and were either pretending they didn't, or it didn't matter.

Tho other than Agayla who may only suspect, no one seems to know that she is Azathanai

Also, we don't know exactly when she joined the Empire as a High Mage - it could have been after Dancer and Kel were already missing or 'dead', but Dancer did encounter her back in LAMENT.

There's an instance prior to the convergence where Agayla is describing Nightchill to Nedurian, and she says something like: "Think of her as an ascendant". I interpreted that to mean Agayla knew Nightchill was an Azathani, and also knew she wasn't an ascendant in a way that Nedurian would understand.......but that the two (Azathani, ascendant) are similar enough that it would prompt Nedurian to behave in a certain way.

Later in the book Tay says he knows all the active High Mages and ascendants. It made me wonder how much of a distinction there is between the two. It's possible the other Imperial High Mages knew what Nightchill was....and just didn't care. If you're all mobile nukes, what does it matter if a different kind of nuke strolls in?

Actually this may be why Quick Ben and Bottle are always so quick to play squadmage. If someone knows you're a nuke....they're gonna want to use or defuse you.

[WhiskeyJohn]

I have a query in Deadhouse. In latest book, Wu and Dancer enters and exits the house many times. However I recall they had to sneak in through the backdoor and fight to enter it in Night of Knives....Any theories on it?

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohn: 29 November 2017 - 08:17 PM

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJohn, on 29 November 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

I have a query in Deadhouse. In latest book, Wu and Dancer enters and exits the house many times. However I recall they had to sneak in through the backdoor and fight to enter it in Night of Knives....Any theories on it?

I think that it"s because in NoK, under the Shadowmoon they are using the Azath to enter Shadow, and specifically Shadowkeep and seizing the Throne. Not the same as what they are doing in DHL.

Also, there's the sacrifice element to ascension. They had to seem to die before entering, so just sneaking in without all the drama wasn't an option.

[WhiskeyJohn]

rant, on 29 November 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 November 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 November 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Varandas, on 28 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I might have misunderstood it in that moment, but to me it seemed the result of Kallor's stroyline was him wounding Nightchill to a degree so that she would not be able to use her whole power. I might confuse the effect of the "smoke" he used to conceal himself with a permanent effect, but that is what I took away from that moment. It would explain why Nightchill is "only" a High Mage with her kind of power, even if it may be explained by the fact that she is restraining herself.

I doubt it. Nightchill had to blend in with a seriously powerful and capable mage cadre from Tays to Akaronys, not to mention Kell himself. She would have certainly had to restrain her power or eyebrows would have been raised.

...or they all knew who/what she was (or used to be) and were either pretending they didn't, or it didn't matter.

Tho other than Agayla who may only suspect, no one seems to know that she is Azathanai

Also, we don't know exactly when she joined the Empire as a High Mage - it could have been after Dancer and Kel were already missing or 'dead', but Dancer did encounter her back in LAMENT.

There's an instance prior to the convergence where Agayla is describing Nightchill to Nedurian, and she says something like: "Think of her as an ascendant". I interpreted that to mean Agayla knew Nightchill was an Azathani, and also knew she wasn't an ascendant in a way that Nedurian would understand.......but that the two (Azathani, ascendant) are similar enough that it would prompt Nedurian to behave in a certain way.

Later in the book Tay says he knows all the active High Mages and ascendants. It made me wonder how much of a distinction there is between the two. It's possible the other Imperial High Mages knew what Nightchill was....and just didn't care. If you're all mobile nukes, what does it matter if a different kind of nuke strolls in?

Actually this may be why Quick Ben and Bottle are always so quick to play squadmage. If someone knows you're a nuke....they're gonna want to use or defuse you.

I think MoI sheds some clues. Lots of people know Nightchill, but very few know she's a human incarnation of Sister of Cold Nights. Only Quick Been and maybe Agayla and certain few others know the link and so she says 'think as an ascendant' because it's the human version and not the actual ascendant herself (SoCN).

Did I confuse you more? Lol.

[Riot]

an awesome read. love how every book snares me back into the Malazan world. enjoyed the little hints at characters and their futures, in particular Jack burning the bridge once they couldn't defend it

[nacht]

Really loved "Admiral Kellenved", he who has four or five captains and one scary ship.

This post has been edited by nacht: 29 November 2017 - 09:12 PM

[Gorefest]

Awesome read. Had a bunch of stuff for pondering down in text and then my post suddenly disappeared, so this is attempt number 2.

D’rek being one end male, one end female. That is new, right? We were told that D’rek was worshipped as either a male or a female, but so far she had mostly been referred to as female (mistress of decay, etc). Odd. Perhaps the female end was the persona that did most of the conversing with her priesthood?
Tallow being tainted with chaos magic. Could this indicate that he has some sort of connection with the Crippled God? We know from MBotF (bonehunters) that D’rek kills her entire priesthood because they chose Kaminsod over her. Are we seeing the seeds of that betrayal sown here? We are also told that early in the malazan campaign Dancer and Surly take out the Kartool sorceror cult and the demidrek (Tallow, one assumes) and they take over Kartool. Assuming that this happens in the third novel, if there is indeed a Kaminsod link it might be the point where Kell and Dancer learn about the existence of the Crippled God. We know that there is another chaining coming at some point in the near future (the one with Dassem’s “daughter” - Nara?) which might have been brought on by Kaminsod starting to influence people such as Tallow. It would be a great conclusion to the third novel: the chaining being the culminating convergence that sets Kell and Dancer on their ultimate path to all subsequent events; ascending and affecting events, all in order to set Kaminsod free.

Speaking of which: Nara and the role of Dassem’s “daughter” at the final chaining. I dont think it was actually said at any point during Dancer’s Lament or DL that Nara was his daughter, but I guess she seems to be of similar importance to him if not a real daughter. She is taken into the Deadhouse but then disappears. Maybe that is the betrayal we are hinted at, Dassem assuming that Nara goes into a safe haven to await a possible future cure to the plague, only to have her being abused for a nasty chaining ritual and then dumped back into the Azath?

I assume Jack is Whiskeyjack, but then again we were told in MBotF that he was from a common family (masons), not aristocracy, by contemporaries who really should know. Not sure if you can reason that one away with unreliable narrators or whether ICE simply doesnt care that much about such details...

[Gorefest]

Also, Edgewalker. Some interesting bits there. Nightchill who you would assume to be a contemporary, as she is azathenai, thinks of him as an 'ancient'. Could of course simply be a title for a very old (i.e. fellow azathenai) being. Or... is there an even more primordial layer of dieties that predates even the azathenai? Just as the azathenai predate the ‘newer’ gods like Oponn? Alternatively, as she ponders that 'some' even assume Edgewalker to be the creator of Shadow (!!), would that make him a Tiste? Draconus was azathenai, but father light was Tiste and Shadow came after. Unless we are talking some more primordial shadow here, not the Shadow Realm/elder Emurlahn. Him looking for a successor is interesting too.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 29 November 2017 - 09:58 PM

[WhiskeyJohn]

Gorefest, on 29 November 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Awesome read. Had a bunch of stuff for pondering down in text and then my post suddenly disappeared, so this is attempt number 2.

D’rek being one end male, one end female. That is new, right? We were told that D’rek was worshipped as either a male or a female, but so far she had mostly been referred to as female (mistress of decay, etc). Odd. Perhaps the female end was the persona that did most of the conversing with her priesthood?
Tallow being tainted with chaos magic. Could this indicate that he has some sort of connection with the Crippled God? We know from MBotF (bonehunters) that D’rek kills her entire priesthood because they chose Kaminsod over her. Are we seeing the seeds of that betrayal sown here? We are also told that early in the malazan campaign Dancer and Surly take out the Kartool sorceror cult and the demidrek (Tallow, one assumes) and they take over Kartool. Assuming that this happens in the third novel, if there is indeed a Kaminsod link it might be the point where Kell and Dancer learn about the existence of the Crippled God. We know that there is another chaining coming at some point in the near future (the one with Dassem’s “daughter” - Nara?) which might have been brought on by Kaminsod starting to influence people such as Tallow. It would be a great conclusion to the third novel: the chaining being the culminating convergence that sets Kell and Dancer on their ultimate path to all subsequent events; ascending and affecting events, all in order to set Kaminsod free.

Speaking of which: Nara and the role of Dassem’s “daughter” at the final chaining. I dont think it was actually said at any point during Dancer’s Lament or DL that Nara was his daughter, but I guess she seems to be of similar importance to him if not a real daughter. She is taken into the Deadhouse but then disappears. Maybe that is the betrayal we are hinted at, Dassem assuming that Nara goes into a safe haven to await a possible future cure to the plague, only to have her being abused for a nasty chaining ritual and then dumped back into the Azath?

I assume Jack is Whiskeyjack, but then again we were told in MBotF that he was from a common family (masons), not aristocracy, by contemporaries who really should know. Not sure if you can reason that one away with unreliable narrators or whether ICE simply doesnt care that much about such details...

I doubt Nara is Dassem's daughter. The Dramatis Personae just lists her as a follower. I think the daughter will be born later as he's just slept with Shear. Also timeline for this book is immediately after Lament...to early for a daughter to be introduced. I think Book 3 will span lots of years and will finish that aspect.

[WhiskeyJohn]

Gorefest, on 29 November 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

Also, Edgewalker. Some interesting bits there. Nightchill who you would assume to be a contemporary, as she is azathenai, thinks of him as an 'ancient'. Could of course simply be a title for a very old (i.e. fellow azathenai) being. Or... is there an even more primordial layer of dieties that predates even the azathenai? Just as the azathenai predate the ‘newer’ gods like Oponn? Alternatively, as she ponders that 'some' even assume Edgewalker to be the creator of Shadow (!!), would that make him a Tiste? Draconus was azathenai, but father light was Tiste and Shadow came after. Unless we are talking some more primordial shadow here, not the Shadow Realm/elder Emurlahn. Him looking for a successor is interesting too.

She mentions that Hounds have not been tamed since Dissembelackis times. I presume Edgewalker to be a important personality during First Empire times. Maybe he wanted to take over from Dissembelackis and failed and got stuck in Shadow. I believe him to be human by origin. Not much is known about First Empire to be sure.

And Oponn are Sechul Lath's kids (Kilmandaros grand children). They are Azathanai too. You are right, they are newer gods.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohn: 29 November 2017 - 11:18 PM

[Nevyn]

Shiver, on 18 November 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Fair enough, but neither Toc the Elder or his son were ever described as having blue skin, though, which he'd have if he were Napan.

Then again Hawl also died in this book when she should've gone on to marry Nok and later die on Drift Avalii, so maybe there's just a bit of continuity mess-up going on.

I've been going back through text searches of the MBotF chasing down references.

And worth noting that when Nok and Gamet are talking with Tavore about the family, they actually mention Hawl among the losses of conquering Malaz.

So whatever weirdness goes on there, it seems to be by design. Although there are other inconsistensies.