[Mezla PigDog]

QuickTidal, on 22 January 2022 - 12:47 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 21 January 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

grow a fucking backbone. There's a lot of middle class white ladies complaining when they could have just stood up for themselves.

I don’t think there is a big enough font for the “yikes” this comment gave me.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m with amph, that whole, screed was bad Mez.

Standing up for one’s self against someone with Whedons clout gets you exactly in Weinstein territory….blacklisted. There’s a reason Charisma Carpenter didn’t get a lot of further starring work after Angel.

But moreover, why should women have to stand up for themselves…but Whedon can’t be asked to behave like a better human first? Like the problem isn’t the women being harassed in this scenario…it’s Whedon…but for some reason we need to “boys will be boys” him and just tell the women to grow a spine?

Fuck no.

Where did I say he doesn't get asked to behave like a better person? Where is the HR department and industry with basic employment standards and people who call out inappropriate behaviour as it happens? Put him in those controls and he is just another creepy guy. My point is there is nothing special about what happened here. I'd be focusing my energy on the more urgent crises in sexism first before I'm getting outraged about Joss Whedon being a dick. It's not a boys will be boys attitude. It's more of a 'no shit!' attitude. So the rest of the world is catching up that guys can make terrible bosses. It's not news.

[Imperial Historian]

Reading through that article it's clear that he's a dick, and Hollywood clearly has a long way to go in terms of HR. Disappointingly he is a terrible person, but I'm sure a significant percentage of other people in positions of power in Hollywood and elsewhere are also terrible. There don't seem to be any clear accusations of anything that can be considered criminal, but plenty that indicate he was a bad boss and predatory in his relationships. So I'm with Mez here, man's an awful human being but that isn't particularly special there are plenty of other people in the world who are just as if not more objectional that I'm much more concerned with. A not insignificant percentage of western politicians for one.

Do I still enjoy some of his shows, yes. Is my enjoyment a little bit ruined by his involvement yes. Would I still watch and enjoy something else he made, possibly if it was good. Am I going to go out of my way to watch his shows now, unlikely.

I do wish we get to a point where 'another creepy guy' truly is news though, so maybe this is a step in the right direction.

[Gorefest]

I also wouldn't put him in the same bracket as the Weinsteins of this world, he doesn't seem to sexually force himself onto anyone. But he definitely is a creep. Cheating on your wife because you feel you are entitled to have multiple sexual relationships due to your fame is just all sorts of seriously fucked up-ness. It makes you an intensely unpleasant and unethical human being.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Gorefest, on 20 January 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt "fucking terrible about them", but felt he "had" to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would "always regret it" if he hadn't."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

This is where I'm at. He's not Weinstein but he's still a bloody awful human being I wouldn't want to be anywhere near.

I do see some of Mezla's point though - I would love men in positions of power turning out to be utter creeps to be genuniely surprising news, one day. We are most certainly not there yet.

[amphibian]

There's a difference between "this isn't that surprising" and "the women involved in this needed to stand up for themselves". They did. That's how we got here.

Also, the saying "I didn't like Dawn as a character" and connecting that to somewhat dismissing what happened to to the actor is really weird. Especially when Whedon was largely responsible for how Dawn was written and presented on-screen.

Not every act of standing up for ones self or fighting harassment/bad behavior is public. It's especially hard to do public callouts and acts of resistance in Hollywood where HR really isn't there to protect anyone other than the top rank and the perceived rainmakers in the organization.

I'm not demanding anything of anyone here. Everyone's got their own lines in the sand and they're going to do as they will. It's pretty easy for me to just auto ignore the work products of abusers and assaulters. I care less about specific bits of entertainment than I do just being able to relax and not have to do mental contortions to enjoy something fully. There's a lot out there made by decent to great people and I can go explore that pretty easily.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 23 January 2022 - 06:35 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

I know the Dawn statement is silly. I was being deliberately annoying because the pearl clutching reactions to "guy treats women he has relationships with badly" were bugging me. I hated Cordelia too and I'll happily suggest one of the reasons her work dried up was because she was a bad actress.

I find it very frustrating that all of the enabling around these men is done. There would have been a lot of very well paid people around Joss Whedon who let it all slide. This isn't people who live hand to mouth, pay check to pay check and dare not speak up for fear of not being able to put food on the table. Th whole production should take the blame for the fact he continued working after whatever weird way he treated the kid (that I assume was legal).

Maybe I'm desensitized to terrible men but as well as older men taking advantage of their position of power legally but in shitty ways is not new, neither is young women making poor choices about who they get into bed with! Pearl clutchers may read this as victim blaming but I was a young woman once and I had a lot of young women friends and we made some bad decisions - nobody is to be blamed, guys could have been nicer but it's not news.

[amphibian]

I don't want to financially contribute or eyeball contribute to the power and wealth of the men who mistreated you or other people.

It may not be news that this kind of mistreatment occurs, yet I can make choices to not feed into the system as much. If that's pearl clutching, then the mollusk garbage can be dust in my grips.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 27 January 2022 - 04:10 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

Funny thing about this discussion is that I only kinda liked Buffy, hated Dollhouse, thought Firefly was ok and like the first Avengers movie. I never really liked how he wrote women and didn't get the feminism thing. Maybe in the late 90s it was a step up from what had gone before but the bar was LOW. I couldn't give a monkeys if Joss Wheddon never makes anything again! I should find something more constructive to do with my time.

Although the Dawn thing. Her parents let her continue working there! Either what he did isn't that bad or they made some funky decisions.

[amphibian]

It's life changing money and no real chance at the time of having him be held accountable. That changes the calculus a bit and I think you've made decisions in similar manner. That stinks all around and I don't want people to keep having to do that because I consume what Whedon makes.

[Macros]

I'm on the fence between this one now.
I see both sides.

Personally what I would love to see (not holding my breath) is Whedon get crucified if he did anything illegal, but also, all the slimy bastards who greased the wheels and enabled him to catch the flak as well. In nearly all of these things coming out, its the blind eye that let them continue over prolonged periods. If you know shit like this is happening and ignore it because you're getting that sweet paycheck, you're a party to it

[Macros]

and before the rain comes down on me, I do not mean to say the victims not coming forward earlier are to blame. (I have heard this nonsense levelled at the weinstein victims)

I mean the execs, PAs, parents, associates who were not the victims, but knew stuff was happening, were benefiting financially (or not either way) from the situations and let it continue by not raising their voices.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 28 January 2022 - 09:29 AM, said:

also, all the slimy bastards who greased the wheels and enabled him to catch the flak as well. In nearly all of these things coming out, its the blind eye that let them continue over prolonged periods. If you know shit like this is happening and ignore it because you're getting that sweet paycheck, you're a party to it

Hollywood as an industry needs to be dismantled and rebuilt. It's rife with rot. Stuff like what Bryan Singer and and Kevin Spacey engaged in is the very top of a deep bucket of abusive shit. The industry is built off casting couch Bs, and filled with men getting away with heinous shit because they have money and power.

Ricky Gervais nails them about this in all his appearances as GG's host. He loathes Hollywood, and this is the reason.

People like Whedon would not get away with what they get away with if there wasn't a MASSIVE structure of similar and worse men in much higher positions.

Look at WB brass....they all got called out when Whedon was called out..and NONE of them have faced any repercussions of any kind....because they have money, position, and power.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 January 2022 - 01:46 PM

[Tsundoku]

You could replace the word "Hollywood" with "big business" or "politics" or "sport" etc etc etc and keep the rest of the text the same and it would all still make the same sense.

It's the haves and the have-nots on a sliding scale. The hierarchy of inequality.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 28 January 2022 - 02:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

Tsundoku, on 28 January 2022 - 02:14 PM, said:

You could replace the word "Hollywood" with "big business" or "politics" or "sport" etc etc etc and keep the rest of the text the same and it would all still make the same sense.

It's the haves and the have-nots on a sliding scale. The hierarchy of inequality.

Yeah, that's fair.

[Tiste Simeon]

Tsundoku, on 28 January 2022 - 02:14 PM, said:

You could replace the word "Hollywood" with "big business" or "politics" or "sport" etc etc etc and keep the rest of the text the same and it would all still make the same sense.

It's the haves and the have-nots on a sliding scale. The hierarchy of inequality.

Just use a cover-all term for ease. I suggest "Capitalism"

[Tsundoku]

Mmmmm, tempting, but I think of it more as feudalism, with less and less rights the lower you go.

I'm still yet to beat feudalism for the sheer sense of entitlement that concept brings. Plutocracy and oligarchy don't quite work in this situation IMHO.

And it doesn't have to be purely based on an inherited nobility system. The USSR and CCP did an amazing job replacing inherited nobility with their party systems but essentially havig he same system of haves and have-nots but with added hypocrisy ("comrade" ... really???). Which now I think about it also have aspects of inherited power with their multigenerational party "princes" etc.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 28 January 2022 - 09:49 PM

[Morgoth]

Tsundoku, on 28 January 2022 - 02:14 PM, said:

You could replace the word "Hollywood" with "big business" or "politics" or "sport" etc etc etc and keep the rest of the text the same and it would all still make the same sense.

It's the haves and the have-nots on a sliding scale. The hierarchy of inequality.

You can, but at the same time we're seeing substantial changes in how this stuff works outside of Hollywood. How one treats female interns in the big law firms for instance, that has seen a major shift over the last decade or so. Same in consulting from what I hear, and in academia too. No longer are jokes about picking up a young blond at the Christmas party seen as acceptable, and might very well have consequences for your promotion opportunities. Metoo scared people. Even if there weren't all that many consequences for most perpetrators, it still caused changes. But, not it would seem in Hollywood.

[QuickTidal]

I'm only hearing about this now because apparently back when it happened no one really believed her, or paid much attention to it?....but William Hurt apparently beat and raped Marlee Maitlin when they were together (she was 19 and he 35)?

Obviously it's coming out now because Hurt just died...but fuck me....the fact that a guy who had been so present in big blockbusters of recent (MCU) has those allegations against him and no one batted an eye or even mentioned it?

Marlee deserved better than that.

[QuickTidal]

I think Ezra Miller needs to be drummed out of the two huge franchises he's currently a part of....This is not the first (or likely last) utterly batshit story about his behaviour I've heard. He sounds like an absolute mess and not someone I think anyone should work with.

I would be not remotely surprised if he has bad undiagnosed mental health issues. Neither this incident, nor the one in (Iceland, was it?) are normal interactions...they both smack of like BiPolar or something.

https://www.independ...r-b2047147.html

[QuickTidal]

and they've done it again....this dude is done in the industry. If the second set of incidents a few weeks back din't turf their career, this will do it.

https://www.hawaiine...-hawaii-island/

I'm calling it now. They are recast for FLASH in the forthcoming FLASH movie...like they will do some reshoots with a new actor and show that Ezra's Barry fucked up the timeline too much and the new guy will be Barry going fwd.

And I hear rumours their character dies in FB3 anyways, so yeah...this dude's career is mud.

EDIT: To fix pronouns.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 20 April 2022 - 03:14 PM