[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 14 January 2025 - 04:32 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 January 2025 - 04:21 PM, said:

I could almost (almost) write off the early stuff to hit piece spin but now... yeah, this is bad and worse.

Will be interesting to see whether Netflix kills Sandman S2 and/or Audible kills audiodrama S4. DC also staying quiet but i wouldn't expect any new collected editions any time soon.

I could see Netflix just axing SANDMAN even though it sounds like it's mostly complete...just to avoid then bad press....I loved S1, but I won't be watching if they drop S2.


I expect this is a career-killer now....aside from the police involvement that is likely incoming (Vulture would not have posted if the stuff they let the author publish wasn't iron clad in sources; so stuff like Amanda's comment about Ash being in that room without headphones and whatnot is sourced) about their kid, and likely more on the SA front with him AND Amanda...their careers are both effectively over now forever. They MIGHT do what other people who were found out to be shitty did and shift to the right wing grift...but something tells me not. I can't see anyone wanting anything to do with his work now, and from a revenue POV large chunks of that article would be radioactive to any company be they Netflix, or Amazon, or whoever else...just toast, the whole thing.

IDK about Netflix caring so much, they've been giving Dave Chapelle and other "cancelled" megastars a platform for a long time.

Amazon Prime maybe more? Unless Emperor Trump commands them not to... "go woke, get canceled by the government's antitrust / anti-anti-Trump enforcers"!

One interesting suggestion I saw is for Gaiman to sign a (legally binding) contract to donate all his portion of the proceeds from upcoming tv series and audiobooks to charity. That way the cast, crew, etc. would still be paid, and people could buy without giving Gaiman any more money.

Could Gaiman pivot to some sort of anti-woke cult? Maybe start his own version of Scientology? Who would have guessed that Russell Brand would pivot to the alt right?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: Yesterday, 05:00 PM

[amphibian]

I think my decision to remove Gaiman from my library has to do with how he made several noticeable elements of his abuse as a child into the Ocean book and abuse of others into elements of The Sandman. They are not super subtle and they are there alongside redemptive themes that now have an overtone of creepy rather than the uplifting tone they once had without this knowledge.

Palmer has something going on where she must be the sun around which others orbit in an unhealthy way and it fed into this - and likely her own poor treatment of people as well.

There's many spokes of this that go into how comic and fantasy fans need to have organizational structures that protect them as fans more than what currently exists (that's going to require reformation of conventions and book tours a bit), how easy it is for people to somewhat abet the horrible conduct, and how old this phenomenon is within the American/English fantasy field.

Similar things were happening with Marion Zimmer Bradley and her somehow even worse husband before they got married in Berkeley. I think there has been progress since the Bradley days or the Asimov days, but it's not enough and the people/authors who've been tolling the bell for further action on protecting fans, authors, and the staff even more are right. We need to do more and it may start with reforming cons, book tours, and so on with contracts/clauses/expectations of behavior that exclude relationships or hook-ups with fans.

This post has been edited by amphibian: Yesterday, 07:14 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 January 2025 - 04:59 PM, said:

IDK about Netflix caring so much, they've been giving Dave Chapelle and other "cancelled" megastars a platform for a long time.

There is a UNIVERSE of difference between what Chapelle has been cancelled for, and what Gaiman has done. The stuff about his kid alone, never mind the SA in that article would be enough to throw Sandman S2 into the deepest dark pit ever. There are lines even Netflix won't likely cross, I expect credible SA and child abuse to be those lines.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 14 January 2025 - 07:13 PM, said:

Palmer has something going on where she must be the sun around which others orbit in an unhealthy way and it fed into this - and likely her own poor treatment of people as well.

The line in the article about him lamenting that he and Palmer couldn't have Scarlett together lends credence to the notion that they used to do this as a unit and that only broke down not that long before all this happened to Scarlett. Adding in the "She told me I could not have you" smugness was icing on the ick cake.

amphibian, on 14 January 2025 - 07:13 PM, said:

There's many spokes of this that go into how comic and fantasy fans need to have organizational structures that protect them as fans more than what currently exists (that's going to require reformation of conventions and book tours a bit), how easy it is for people to somewhat abet the horrible conduct, and how old this phenomenon is within the American/English fantasy field.

Having been someone who attended conventions in the past, the sheer amount of creepers that walk around and act like cosplayers or other women are fodder to get creep-photos of, and other gross behaviour were some of the reasons we stopped going. There is no protection at all, unless a woman advocates for herself...so when the stars/celebs themselves go on the prowl, you can imagine that there are even less barriers when they use their power and influence.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 14 January 2025 - 07:14 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 January 2025 - 04:59 PM, said:

IDK about Netflix caring so much, they've been giving Dave Chapelle and other "cancelled" megastars a platform for a long time.

There is a UNIVERSE of difference between what Chapelle has been cancelled for, and what Gaiman has done. The stuff about his kid alone, never mind the SA in that article would be enough to throw Sandman S2 into the deepest dark pit ever. There are lines even Netflix won't likely cross, I expect credible SA and child abuse to be those lines.

Good point, but Russell Brand has also had multiple women accuse him of sexual assault... which caused his shows to be pulled from Paramount+, but not Netflix:

Russell Brand's Stand-Up Pulled From Paramount+ But His Netflix Show Stays

I don't have Netflix but it looks like they're still available.

Will the allegations about his child being present make the difference? Somehow I doubt it. Did people cancel Netflix en masse over Russell Brand? Quick search turned up nothing on that.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: Yesterday, 07:38 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 January 2025 - 07:38 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 14 January 2025 - 07:14 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 January 2025 - 04:59 PM, said:

IDK about Netflix caring so much, they've been giving Dave Chapelle and other "cancelled" megastars a platform for a long time.

There is a UNIVERSE of difference between what Chapelle has been cancelled for, and what Gaiman has done. The stuff about his kid alone, never mind the SA in that article would be enough to throw Sandman S2 into the deepest dark pit ever. There are lines even Netflix won't likely cross, I expect credible SA and child abuse to be those lines.

Good point, but Russell Brand has also had multiple women accuse him of sexual assault... which caused his shows to be pulled from Paramount+, but not Netflix:

Russell Brand's Stand-Up Pulled From Paramount+ But His Netflix Show Stays

I don't have Netflix but it looks like they're still available.

Will the allegations about his child being present make the difference? Somehow I doubt it. Did people cancel Netflix en masse over Russell Brand? Quick search turned up nothing on that.

Yeah that’s fair, I don’t know if it’s a 1:1, but I guess we will have to wait and see what Netflix does. I hope they deep six it myself.

[Abyss]

Gaiman posted a response today. More or less 'everything was consensual or didn't happen, i have the messages to prove it'.
Someone must have shown him the Jian Ghomeshi decision.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Something I noticed this morning was that seemingly in response to people doing the "Terry Pratchett must have known" sort of nonsense, was the sharing of quotes by author Robert Rankin (who I gather was friends with Pratchett) basically supporting the claims made that they weren't friends, they collaborated professionally on one book in the 1990s, Gaiman barely warranted more than a couple of sentences in the recent memoir that Pratchett's assistant wrote, and that he apparently said that he wished he'd never collaborated with Gaiman (though didn't expand on why) and once joked about setting up a support group for those who had "survived a collaboration" with him.

I don't know when the conversations were supposed to have happened, but thought it was worth noting.

[QuickTidal]

So Matthew Boroson made a post on FB about Gaiman and Sandman...and that he essentially ripped off Tanith Lee for Sandman. She wrote a series of books in the 70's called TALES OF THE FLAT EARTH....they starred a Azhran, a prince of the night who is a Byronic, pale, otherworldly, deity-like character who looks exactly like Morpheus (so much so that apparently people have seen images of him and assumed Lee ripped Gaiman off)...but it gets worse...Azhran has siblings...and his younger sister...is Death...and the others are Delusion, and Delirium. The family is all immortal, eternal, unchanging beings who embody an eternal abstraction starting with the letter D. In the 3rd book there is a description of a character who is clearly the cribbing for Gaiman's Mazikeen. The prose, the characters, the mythology, the story structure, all of it....Gaiman stole and gave her no credit. Taking what he wants from a woman and not paying her any credit...sound familiar? His whole ass career is built of the success of Sandman...a property he copied and renamed by grafting it onto a DC character. And she struggled from the 90's until her death in 2015, while he flourished. This man felt entitled to take what was not his from a woman without permission, or acknowledgement.

So for anyone annoyed that Sandman is so tainted now...the silver lining is perhaps that there is a whole book series that was the originator of these ideas, written by a woman who may not have been credited in life, but we can damn sure make it so that she is posthumously honoured and credited for these things, while we leave Sandman safely in the dust with Gaiman.

The works are:

NIGHT'S MASTER (1978)
DEATH'S MASTER (1979)
DELUSIONS MASTER (1981)
DELERIUM'S MISTRESS (1986)
NIGHT SORCERIES (1987)
THE EARTH IS FLAT (2023; published posthumously)

I am going to make it my mission to seek these out now. They will replace the gap that turfing all my Gaiman left on my shelf.

Abyss, on 15 January 2025 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gaiman posted a response today. More or less 'everything was consensual or didn't happen, i have the messages to prove it'.
Someone must have shown him the Jian Ghomeshi decision.

His proof is still "Well, I have the messages that these women sent me while they were still largely under my thrall, so that proves my innocence"

If you read the rebuttal, it's like watching the "I'm that nice guy you always thought I was" veil being slipped back over his true self...using all the things that he knows people want to hear in a contrite statement and yet also basically taking responsibility for none of it...it's so clearly a mask to me now that I'm baffled I never saw it before.

I'll say this...once the cops talk directly to Amanda, and she wants to save her OWN skin from deep prosecution, she'll turn on him and this will all be on the record ofifically....but again I repeat that Vulture/NY Magazine (who have won Pulitzers) WOULD NOT go to press with that article as it was without being AIRTIGHT with sources...my guess? Those that know Amanda, supplied texts with her that corroborate what Scarlett's stated about her and what she did and said. And I think the nail in that coffin is 100% the "Was ash wearing his headphones when you were in the room with Scarlett"....I think that text exists to a friend of Amanda's and that's in the hands of NY Mag. He's toasty toast.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: Today, 01:19 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

From the Facebook post:

Quote

This is about Neil Gaiman.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME is a great book. Insightful, beautifully written, profound.

Coates modeled his book on James Baldwin's THE FIRE NEXT TIME.

We know this because Coates was open and up-front about this fact.

George R.R. Martin's GAME OF THRONES/A Song of Ice and Fire is a great series.

Martin modeled his books on a series by a French author named Maurice Druon.

[...] Gaiman modeled his series on Tanith Lee's TALES FROM THE FLAT EARTH.

[...] The prose, the characters, the narrative strategies, the mythology, the story structure, all of it: Gaiman found it all in Tanith Lee's writing and never gave her any credit. [...] A simple "If you like The Sandman, you should really read Tanith Lee's books!" from Neil Gaiman would have meant so much to her career. To the livelihood of a struggling, less-privileged writer, whose amazing imagination Gaiman was actively ripping off.

People praised The Sandman comics for their depiction of gay and trans identities. But in the original material, Tanith Lee was far more progressive about lgbtq+ identities, and that was twenty years earlier.

[...] Her prose is more exquisite and imaginative, her ideas more original, her empathy real.

https://www.facebook...916607465022768

Flat Earth is an unfortunate name though, because it makes people think of Flat Earthers (I'd guess she didn't intend that?). Given the timing, this also seems like it might be too good to be true---a meme designed to replicate---without independent confirmation from trusted sources, but it certainly could be.

[polishgenius]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 15 January 2025 - 10:27 AM, said:

Something I noticed this morning was that seemingly in response to people doing the "Terry Pratchett must have known" sort of nonsense, was the sharing of quotes by author Robert Rankin (who I gather was friends with Pratchett) basically supporting the claims made that they weren't friends, they collaborated professionally on one book in the 1990s, Gaiman barely warranted more than a couple of sentences in the recent memoir that Pratchett's assistant wrote, and that he apparently said that he wished he'd never collaborated with Gaiman (though didn't expand on why) and once joked about setting up a support group for those who had "survived a collaboration" with him.

I don't know when the conversations were supposed to have happened, but thought it was worth noting.

tbh I don't think it's even that relevant whether they were even really friends or not. Someone pointed out the other day Meryl Streep's response about how could she not have known about Weinstein, which was essentially 'because he needed me not to know'. Abusers like that don't just charm their victims, they charm surrounding figures who act as their credibility. I'd also hope that if Pratchett did say that kind of thing it wasn't to do with any of this... but I think it's also worth noting that Pratchett's actual family and known friends- his daughter and Rob Wilkins- were fine working with Gaiman on Good Omens until this came out, so it doesn't seem there was any unbreakable resentment about how he was presenting himself in public as a friend.

Also I think it's extra notable in this case that even the whisper network doesn't seem to have been that active in this case. Like I saw a twitter post in passing the other day that mentioned someone had warned her off him, but there doesn't seem to be a flood of people saying they'd heard things the way it turned out to be with Weinstein. He seems to have very specifically targeted very vulnerable, very isolated women.

[the broken]

"Must have known" needs to be based on evidence, not gut feelings.

I'm not prepared to assume one thing or the other about Pratchett, he might or might not have known, or seen things and not connected the dots. It's not something you can judge easily without more detailed investigation. If 'person automatically must have known because of close contact' that quickly gets into ugly territory because these people can be quite capable of concealing these things or someone that loves and trusts them might not connect the dots.

If Gaiman is raping people, who cares if he is plagiarising or not? Artistic talent or lack thereof doesn't matter.

Quote

One interesting suggestion I saw is for Gaiman to sign a (legally binding) contract to donate all his portion of the proceeds from upcomin [/quoteg tv series and audiobooks to charity. That way the cast, crew, etc. would still be paid, and people could buy without giving Gaiman any more money.

He'll never do that, because it would be an admission.

This post has been edited by the broken: Today, 01:50 PM

[polishgenius]

Azath Vitr (D, on 15 January 2025 - 01:13 PM, said:

Flat Earth is an unfortunate name though, because it makes people think of Flat Earthers (I'd guess she didn't intend that?). Given the timing, this also seems like it might be too good to be true---a meme designed to replicate---without independent confirmation from trusted sources, but it certainly could be.

Well, to be fair, she couldn't have intended it or much helped the current associations of the term, given she wrote the first book in 1976, 30 years before flat earth started to become a widespread conspiracy theory of any note.

Not sure what you mean about the timing and meme thing. Tanith Lee didn't break out of the SFF niche the way a Gaiman did, but she wasn't particuarly obscure. I can't speak to more in-depth similarities or how much Gaiman really did rip her off as a whole coz I've not read Flat Earth, but the broad strokes are verifiable fairly easily on her wiki page.

(I really should get back to the books of hers I have, the LionWolf trilogy. It's a great setting and very well written but I keep getting to a particular spot in the first book and grounding out, need to push through eventually).

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 15 January 2025 - 01:20 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 15 January 2025 - 10:27 AM, said:

Something I noticed this morning was that seemingly in response to people doing the "Terry Pratchett must have known" sort of nonsense, was the sharing of quotes by author Robert Rankin (who I gather was friends with Pratchett) basically supporting the claims made that they weren't friends, they collaborated professionally on one book in the 1990s, Gaiman barely warranted more than a couple of sentences in the recent memoir that Pratchett's assistant wrote, and that he apparently said that he wished he'd never collaborated with Gaiman (though didn't expand on why) and once joked about setting up a support group for those who had "survived a collaboration" with him.

I don't know when the conversations were supposed to have happened, but thought it was worth noting.

tbh I don't think it's even that relevant whether they were even really friends or not. Someone pointed out the other day Meryl Streep's response about how could she not have known about Weinstein, which was essentially 'because he needed me not to know'. Abusers like that don't just charm their victims, they charm surrounding figures who act as their credibility.

Yep, that's pretty much what Tori said about it as she was asked...she didn't know because he NEEDED HER not to know and that she's a spokesperson for RAINN since the 90's makes for good cover for him. I expect Terry was much the same, he needed him not to know.

the broken, on 15 January 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

If Gaiman is raping people, who cares if he is plagiarising or not? Artistic talent or lack thereof doesn't matter.

Oh my post wasn't really about that, it was more about giving a woman he wronged the credit, press and support of her work which he copied. But I will say that they are tied together since the dynamics at play "him non-consensually taking what he wanted for his own benefits and desires from a woman against her will" line up pretty well with the stories these women have told about what he was like in those relationships, even if the circumstances (plagiarizing work) are different.

[Tiste Simeon]

 the broken, on 15 January 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

He'll never do that, because it would be an admission

Hmm not sure about this as it occurs frequently in out of court settlements and the like. It's an acknowledgement of the victim while still maintaining that there is no admission of wrongdoing on the part of the person paying.

Or as far as I understand it that's how it goes.

So if the legally binding document made it clear that 1) it was a gesture of goodwill and an acknowledgement of the victims (despite what we may believe about it personally) and 2) the gesture forms no admission of guilt and cannot be used by the prosecution in any future criminal or civil cases, it might fly.

Unless of course he tries to make such a gesture the replacement for any court proceedings of course, which is likely IMO.

[the broken]

Towards the victims, maybe, but towards fans of the Sandman show? Unlikely.

[QuickTidal]

Full Scalzi post on it:

HERE