[JPK]

I'm a bit put off by VanderMeer's aggressiveness here. I honestly think that we're watching a lot of people grieve over reconciling who they thought their friend was over who he actually is. People can be very good at hiding their true selves from friends and loved ones.

I actually really appreciated Scalzi's response and how he's tried to lay out his personal/professional boundaries and how this has muddled that for him. Through something unrelated, I've dealt with having a similar situation at work when someone I considered a colleague and friend did something that made us all look behind the curtain to see who he really was and the strong front he was putting up to those around him. Seeing Scalzi's struggle here has made me feel seen and I don't think it's a bad thing to see the people around Gaiman struggling with coming to terms with of this. I think it's just human and may help people through this situation or through shit of their own.

[amphibian]

Vandermeer can get out of pocket sometimes. I think Scalzi's post is late in coming and uneven in what it says.

The parts that I object to are the specific enumerations of how Gaiman helped him personally and then focusing on the other "friends of Gaiman" going through the same thing much more than the people who Gaiman likely hurt directly.

Talking about the two things at the same time is not ideal without something that connects to the people who've been hurt - who are the epicenter of this much more than the fandom or friends.

Scalzi actually had some good points about how it's difficult to be someone who was a friend and now must change that because of the hurt that person did to others, but... did they have to be surrounded by the other things in that post?

Gaiman helped people and comforted many more. That part of him was real - and I just finished a book by Brust where Gaiman is specifically thanked in the post notes. It's just that the same guy doing that stuff also did these terrible things that are skeevy and dumb even in the best possible light, as Scalzi put it.

There's a lot of words being put out there about how people have to recalibrate friendships etc and I think most are going to be coupled with very little action - much like the Zimmer Bradley situation or the Alice Munroe situation etc. I'm particularly prizing those who are taking actions to support victims, to speak up about increased needs for rules at cons and tours etc. I think Vandermeer has done those things, so I don't look too harshly at his being out of pocket here.

[the broken]

It's all a bit 'finger pointing about the deckchairs of the Titanic', though, isn't it? The fact that this is being reported now in a publication rather than soon after it happened means that vulnerable rape victims were failed.

What people say or don't say on social media after the story breaks is not very important, I could easily see people who don't rush to social media to cover their ass being quietly shattered but not immediately going 'I have feelings! I must rush to vent them on Twitter!' or 'I will stay quiet because I don't want prejudice the trial or accidentally phrase something badly and salt the wound for rape victims'

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

amphibian, on 16 January 2025 - 08:17 PM, said:

Talking about the two things at the same time is not ideal without something that connects to the people who've been hurt - who are the epicenter of this much more than the fandom or friends.

This was why I very quickly stopped reading social media about it - a whole lot of people talking about how their feelings as fans have been hurt, rather than any mention of his victims. I'm not saying those people don't care about the victims and don't abhor his actions, and yes it's fine to have feelings about what Gaiman's works may have meant to you, but it feels a little off for a big portion of the discourse to be only that.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 17 January 2025 - 09:14 AM

[amphibian]

the broken, on 17 January 2025 - 02:20 AM, said:

It's all a bit 'finger pointing about the deckchairs of the Titanic', though, isn't it? The fact that this is being reported now in a publication rather than soon after it happened means that vulnerable rape victims were failed.

I do want to (gently) respond to this.

Good and ethical reporting of sexual assault takes a long time. There's a need to not re-traumatize the person or people telling the story by making them hurriedly relive, retell, and to some level, re-experience what happened. There's a need to fact check and verify and find substantial context beyond what is told on the page in order to fully understand what happened and to some degree, why it happened. There's a need for checking by legal counsel, editors, and the publisher's leadership team.

And often, there is a need for breaks in the process because covering sexual assault takes a toll on people's mental health. I know this particularly well because a friend was an Assistant District Attorney handling child abuse cases for 4 years. He did his best, yet the experience of that was arduous for everyone involved and there's a big list of reasons why most people rotate in and out of those kinds of assignments.

Doing all of these things right for the people harmed and for those handling the story, investigation, or the prosecution takes time. All too often, the police, attorneys and courts handling investigations/prosecution bungle this and hurt even more the people who've been hurt. There's a passel of bad reasons why some people forgot reporting sexual assault to the formal justice system and we as a society haven't done a great job of addressing those.

Getting a fast story out isn't worth the damage and hurt that usually causes.

[JPK]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 January 2025 - 09:14 AM, said:

amphibian, on 16 January 2025 - 08:17 PM, said:

Talking about the two things at the same time is not ideal without something that connects to the people who've been hurt - who are the epicenter of this much more than the fandom or friends.

This was why I very quickly stopped reading social media about it - a whole lot of people talking about how their feelings as fans have been hurt, rather than any mention of his victims. I'm not saying those people don't care about the victims and don't abhor his actions, and yes it's fine to have feelings about what Gaiman's works may have meant to you, but it feels a little off for a big portion of the discourse to be only that.

This is a really good point and one I really should have considered more.

[Tiste Simeon]

Lawsuit filed today against Gaiman and Palmer (same trigger warnings as before apply, graphic descriptions of SA and rape)

https://www.courtlis...-v-gaiman-neil/

[the broken]

Civil case? Hopefully a criminal one in the works somewhere.

[QuickTidal]

Naomi King has accused famed youtuber/SFF reviewer Daniel Greene of SA, cheating on his girlfriend, and legal threats...

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 February 2025 - 01:26 PM

[worry]

Yikes. As far as niche corners of the internet go, he might be the biggest name in that niche, at least for SFF. Meaning (within that niche) a lot of connections, a lot of influence, and a lot of power, so this'll be a bomb going off there. She's brave to do this, especially after doing it the quieter way (which also takes incredible courage) and still getting threatened.

[QuickTidal]

 worry, on 11 February 2025 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yikes. As far as niche corners of the internet go, he might be the biggest name in that niche, at least for SFF. Meaning (within that niche) a lot of connections, a lot of influence, and a lot of power, so this'll be a bomb going off there. She's brave to do this, especially after doing it the quieter way (which also takes incredible courage) and still getting threatened.

The contents of her video are harrowing, so trigger warning to anyone who might be squeamish about SA...

What an absolute garbage human.

She's super brave, and I hope that her voice makes it so that no one else gets fooled into a friendship with this scumbag.

EDIT: Apparently he launched a t-shirt in his merch store that just reads "Allegedly"? What the actual fuck?

EDIT 2: I think he and his GF were getting married or did get married recently too...I can't imagine this is landing well with her since it sounds like he initially told her some lies that Naomi now has receipts to prove him out...so her tune may change...either way, I cannot imagine being texts from my significant other telling some random other person that they will likely "always be a cheater"...she's going to be devastated and need support as well.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 February 2025 - 03:02 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 11 February 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

EDIT: Apparently he launched a t-shirt in his merch store that just reads "Allegedly"? What the actual fuck?

Fucking hell...

I gather Greene refused to cover the Neil Gaiman situation in a bid to "keep the channel positive". There's hindsight at play here, but even without that it strikes very oddly considering how much noise he likes to make about just about every other issue. Looks rather more than odd in light of what Naomi King has released.

I didn't make it all the way through the video, but that poor woman.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 11 February 2025 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yikes. As far as niche corners of the internet go, he might be the biggest name in that niche, at least for SFF. Meaning (within that niche) a lot of connections, a lot of influence, and a lot of power, so this'll be a bomb going off there. She's brave to do this, especially after doing it the quieter way (which also takes incredible courage) and still getting threatened.

Online SFF video book reviews seem to have become a pretty massive mainstream niche and major driver of book sales... but that might mostly be BookTok romantasy, IDK. So I guess the niche niche there might be non-TikTok non-romantasy.

[Tiste Simeon]

Not quite for this thread but it sort of fits. Just saw someone online suggesting Pierce Brown (Red Rising) is pretty pro-Israel and now I definitely don't want to buy any more of his books.

Anyone know anything further about this?

[amphibian]

 Tiste Simeon, on 14 February 2025 - 01:48 PM, said:

Not quite for this thread but it sort of fits. Just saw someone online suggesting Pierce Brown (Red Rising) is pretty pro-Israel and now I definitely don't want to buy any more of his books.

Anyone know anything further about this?

In a quick look, I can't find anything other than very brief Instagram posts about someone seeing him say the October kickoff to the Hamas/Israel/Gaza thing was the bloodiest since some other event.

If there's more, I'd read it, but right now, what I can see through a Google search that picks up Reddit things is not the direct posts or statements themselves.

[Tiste Simeon]

 amphibian, on 14 February 2025 - 05:40 PM, said:

 Tiste Simeon, on 14 February 2025 - 01:48 PM, said:

Not quite for this thread but it sort of fits. Just saw someone online suggesting Pierce Brown (Red Rising) is pretty pro-Israel and now I definitely don't want to buy any more of his books.

Anyone know anything further about this?

In a quick look, I can't find anything other than very brief Instagram posts about someone seeing him say the October kickoff to the Hamas/Israel/Gaza thing was the bloodiest since some other event.

If there's more, I'd read it, but right now, what I can see through a Google search that picks up Reddit things is not the direct posts or statements themselves.

Yeah the guy posting about it didn't provide evidence and I've not seen further. I'll hold off on any definitive thoughts on him...

[worry]

Jeez. I don't know to what degree this is a retraction but it sure seems like a pretty full one, and whether their apology to survivors is genuine or not, the damage is done. Doesn't really seem anything less than self-serving to me. I wouldn't accept this apology.

This post has been edited by worry: 17 February 2025 - 05:47 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 17 February 2025 - 05:45 PM, said:

Jeez. I don't know to what degree this is a retraction but it sure seems like a pretty full one, and whether their apology to survivors is genuine or not, the damage is done. Doesn't really seem anything less than self-serving to me. I wouldn't accept this apology.

The embedded link doesn't include the title so I had no idea who this is about at first and had to click on the video to find out---but as I guessed it's Naomi Klein who had accused the SFF Booktube guy.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 17 February 2025 - 06:09 PM, said:

 worry, on 17 February 2025 - 05:45 PM, said:

Jeez. I don't know to what degree this is a retraction but it sure seems like a pretty full one, and whether their apology to survivors is genuine or not, the damage is done. Doesn't really seem anything less than self-serving to me. I wouldn't accept this apology.

The embedded link doesn't include the title so I had no idea who this is about at first and had to click on the video to find out---but as I guessed it's Naomi Klein who had accused the SFF Booktube guy.

Link doesn't work for me can someone provide context please?

[polishgenius]

Tiste Simeon, on 18 February 2025 - 04:45 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 17 February 2025 - 06:09 PM, said:

worry, on 17 February 2025 - 05:45 PM, said:

Jeez. I don't know to what degree this is a retraction but it sure seems like a pretty full one, and whether their apology to survivors is genuine or not, the damage is done. Doesn't really seem anything less than self-serving to me. I wouldn't accept this apology.

The embedded link doesn't include the title so I had no idea who this is about at first and had to click on the video to find out---but as I guessed it's Naomi Klein who had accused the SFF Booktube guy.

Link doesn't work for me can someone provide context please?

The internet is chatting about a now-deleted Naomi King video admitting she made up the sexual assault, so I'm assuming it's that.