[Adhara]

Oh, I see, you just wanna have the last word!

[Gorefest]

Someone called?

[Abyss]

Isn't there a tvtrope for hyperdangerous sidekick, as opposed to Worf effect... i'd look but for some strange reason the site is blocked by my masters...

[rhulad]

This what you're looking for?

[Zetubal]

 Siergiej, on 01 September 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

That's an interesting discussion. I also don't think looking at Hounds or any characters in the books in purely utilitarian or mechanical terms is a good approach. As McTaco pointed out, Erikson deliberately avoids characterization via easily defined power levels. Trull Sengar ascends to be the Knight of Shadow, holds Icarium back, and ends up stabbed to death by a random dude. This doesn't mean that Trull did not live up to his hype as the Knight of Shadow. It only means he's dead because people tend to die when stabbed.


I'm pretty sure if Barathol Mehar swung his axe at Anomander Rake, he would kill or wound him. I'm also sure that if Anomander Rake stepped on a cusser, he would explode to bits. Being powerful does not make you invulnerable - also one of SE's points in the Malazan Book.

Hounds are feared and respected, because they are formidable. They've been around for hundreds of thousands of years, serving two roles you mentioned - guarding and killing. And they're still around, which is pretty impressive in itself. Silly as it sounds, look at this from the perspective of Anomander Rake, or Caladan Brood, or whoever who has witnessed almost the entire history of this world. They've seen countless gods and ascendants killed in convergences or trapped in Azath. They've seen armies obliterated in wars, empires falling to conquerors, and so on. And Hounds of Shadow are still around. Power draws power is a fundamental law of the Malazan world - so if you wield a lot of power and stay alive for thousands of years, you're a force to be reckoned with.

Also, you mentioned that there's no point for gods and 'powerhouses' to have servants like Hounds because any opposition Hounds can face, a god can face too. Well, I'm pretty sure Nightchill, Olar Ethil, Trull Sengar, Calm, and possibly some others would disagree

Solid counterarguments through and through on the general topic of vulnerability. You're right, and I probably should have phrased my gripe better in that regard. I don't blame the Hounds for ...not being invulnerable. I initially wanted to point out the numerous occasions on which Hounds find themselves beaten, outclassed or simply failing to achieve what their masters had wanted them to achieve. My point being that, at least in the timespan covered in MBotF, their track record of achievements is not one that amazes me.
The thing you address when you assume Rake's or Brood's perspective actually comes close to what I meant, when I said things about the Hounds bugged me. Just based on the multitude of occasions on which Hounds in MBotF get beaten, driven off or outright killed I find it really, really hard to believe that they've stuck around for so long.


Maybe what's at the heart of my complaint is that I just would've liked to see the awesomeness of the Hounds on more occasions rather than having to infer it from how long they've been around and how much their masters (and others) hype them. I've no trouble buying into the hype surrounding Whiskeyjack or Coltaine because I witnessed that they were exactly as awesome as everyone wants to make you believe. With the Hounds...well not so much the case, I'm afraid.

[Abyss]

Counterpoint: neither Whiskeyjack nor Coltaine could jump down the throat of a sea serpent and eat their way out.
...tho admittedly Skinner did...

[Not Noto]

 Abyss, on 06 September 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

Counterpoint: neither Whiskeyjack nor Coltaine could jump down the throat of a sea serpent and eat their way out.
...tho admittedly Skinner did...

But Skinner lost his helmet. I bet Iskar Jarak could do it without losing anything.

[Zetubal]

Gepetto made it out of a far larger sea-dwelling creature just fine, too. And he didn't even have to use his teeth to get the job done.

[Abyss]

Gepetto was a High Mage who probably made a golem out of the leftover bones of previous victims.

[Zetubal]

That's highly debatable, Abyss. Personally, I always took him for the Magus of High House Disney.

[Not Noto]

 Zetubal, on 08 September 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

That's highly debatable, Abyss. Personally, I always took him for the Magus of High House Disney.

Gepetto Skywalker?

[Aptorian]

 Zetubal, on 08 September 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

That's highly debatable, Abyss. Personally, I always took him for the Magus of High House Disney.

That's Yensid

[Siergiej]

 Zetubal, on 05 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Maybe what's at the heart of my complaint is that I just would've liked to see the awesomeness of the Hounds on more occasions rather than having to infer it from how long they've been around and how much their masters (and others) hype them. I've no trouble buying into the hype surrounding Whiskeyjack or Coltaine because I witnessed that they were exactly as awesome as everyone wants to make you believe. With the Hounds...well not so much the case, I'm afraid.

Yeah, I can see how in that sense Hounds can come across as overhyped. Years ago I actually started somewhere here a similar thread about Claw - allegedly a super efficient assassin organization that in he books fucks up every job Tho I agree that in the books Hounds more often get their asses handed to them than not, we do get a glimpse of their power - they kill Hairlock, they kill Poliel, they kill Dejim Nebrahl, we know that Deragoth enslaved Eres'al, and they wreak havoc on Quon Tali, in Darujhistan, and in Sha'ik's camp.

[D'rek]

Going to throw a bit more ammo/consideration onto this topic...

IIRC, in GotM there is mention of eight Hounds of Shadow. The easiest presumption being that Pallick was a former Hound of Shadow, now deceased. Maybe there is always seven, maybe the numbers can vary, but the possibility this raises is that though the Hounds of Shadow as a group may have existed for millenia and have a fierce reputation, individual hounds come and go.

I think that plays a lot into the idea that the collective Hounds have a big, fiercesome reputation even if individual hounds are not necessarily as powerful.

[McTaco]

 D, on 10 October 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Going to throw a bit more ammo/consideration onto this topic...

IIRC, in GotM there is mention of eight Hounds of Shadow. The easiest presumption being that Pallick was a former Hound of Shadow, now deceased. Maybe there is always seven, maybe the numbers can vary, but the possibility this raises is that though the Hounds of Shadow as a group may have existed for millenia and have a fierce reputation, individual hounds come and go.

I think that plays a lot into the idea that the collective Hounds have a big, fiercesome reputation even if individual hounds are not necessarily as powerful.

That or the following:

SE, writing feverishly. Pauses with a constipated look on his face "Honey, how many dogs did I say were in the book?"
SE's Wife "Control-F, Stevie-poo. Control-F"
SE, throws hands in the air in exacerbation "No time, NO TIME! THERE WILL BE SEVEN HOUNDS FROM THIS MOMENT ON!:
SE's Wife, half paying attention "That's nice dear, seven's a nice number"

Fairly safe to assume a lot of SE's inconsistencies stem from conversations like that with his wife.

[Adhara]

Why we women must be guilty of all wrongdoings?

[Gorefest]

It's because of that apple tree, I believe.

[Adhara]

"Believe" is the key word here...

[D'rek]

 Gorefest, on 13 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

It's because of that apple tree, I believe.

I thought that was gravity.

[Nevyn]

 D, on 10 October 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Going to throw a bit more ammo/consideration onto this topic...

IIRC, in GotM there is mention of eight Hounds of Shadow. The easiest presumption being that Pallick was a former Hound of Shadow, now deceased. Maybe there is always seven, maybe the numbers can vary, but the possibility this raises is that though the Hounds of Shadow as a group may have existed for millenia and have a fierce reputation, individual hounds come and go.

I think that plays a lot into the idea that the collective Hounds have a big, fiercesome reputation even if individual hounds are not necessarily as powerful.

There are 7 in the dramatis personnae and 7 accompanying him for the initial slaughter at the start of the book. Can't find a reference to 8 of them.


Possible there were 8 in an early edition I guess, and it got 'fixed', but I only ever recall mention of 7