[worry]

I think it's that there's mention of an eighth hound who died before the events of GotM.

[Abyss]

Pallick, mate to Rood, mother to Doan.

Also, whatever was going on with Garath in MoI that led to Envy and Toc's exchange about how he could be a Hound of Shadow, but was reluctant.

[Zetubal]

Why don't the Hounds subordinate to the Beast Hold anyway...

[worry]

Why don't we all?

[Zetubal]

Let's just say that the Perish don't make a strong case for that particular belief.

[Abyss]

Their aspect is Shadow. As far as we know that was never challenged.I suppose in theory someone in possession if the Beast Throne could try to command them, but you could say the same about Eleint.

[Andorion]

 Zetubal, on 01 November 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

Why don't the Hounds subordinate to the Beast Hold anyway...

Let's just say that from what has been revealed so far in FoL, there is a strong case to be made for the origin of the Hounds to be tied to the history of the Tiste. Shadow being an aspect Emurlahn, which is a Tiste warren, the Hounds are beholden to Shadow

[NefaraisBredd]

Karsa may be powerful and all, but then again he's also mortal and - though of a less degenerated bloodline than most of his race - a mere shadow of the original Thel Akai/Toblakai civilization. From the beginning of HoC, we're led to believe that he's just some fairly powerful young fighter among his tribe. Bairoth Gild is not that much inferior to him, and we have no reason to assume that Karsa's martial prowess is unparalleled among the Teblor.

The above quote from your post illustrates (quite clearly) your lack of understanding of who Karsa (or any other character) is and what they are capable of. SE masterfully makes use of randomness and situational factors that make seemingly powerful characters appear frail/vulnerable.

Now, to address your nonsense about Karsa beimg an average dude from his village. Karsa is a true Toblakai in every sense of the word. He carries the souls of his victims in his wake like a true Toblakai of ages past, he killed two Deragoth WITH EASE. He shrugs off Arch mage sorcery/magic like its nothing!!!! Ublala Pung, who is hilarious and tough as nails, fears and worships Karsa. Oh ya, he defeats a K'chain single handedly and is prolly one of the very few people capable of defeating Icarium. How dare you malign Karsa! He is a true Toblakai and serious badass muddertrucker.

[Abyss]

Couple of points....

 NefaraisBredd, on 18 April 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

...Karsa is a true Toblakai in every sense of the word.

What is a 'true' Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai? Were they a race in themselves or a byproduct of the Thel Akai as seems likely? We don't actually know.


And since Karsa's parents were both Teblor, he cannot be a true blooded anything. You're mixing a comment made about his power or aspect for his bloodline. Bellurdan Skullcrasher is the only 'true' T3 we've ever met in the pre-Kharkanas books and he was a full blown High Mage nothing like Karsa.

Quote

He carries the souls of his victims in his wake like a true Toblakai of ages past,

He does, but I believe we have zero evidence that this was a thing other Thelomen or spin-off races did. Am pretty sure that was Karsa specific thanks to the CG and/or Rockfaces' meddling.

Quote

he killed two Deragoth WITH EASE.

He had help from Leoman at the end there, and still took wounds. Wouldn't call it 'ease'.

Quote

He shrugs off Arch mage sorcery/magic like its nothing!!!!

Interesting point this... in HoC we saw a 'mere' squad mage stop him with Ruse, but he later bulls his way through the Silanda Edur mages' chaos... something he himself was linked to by then.


He forces his way through some further rituals but i don't think we actually saw Karsa 'fight' a serious mage, much less a High/Archmage again in the series that I can recall offhand.

Quote

he defeats a K'chain single handedly

Absolutely true, tho it had just escaped a few millenia of imprisonment. Still impressive tho'.

Quote

and is prolly one of the very few people capable of defeating Icarium.

He did drop Iccy with one punch, but if that encounter had proceeded i'm not as certain it would have ended well for Karsa.

Note that Mappo Trell and Urko both dropped Karsa with one hit.

[NefaraisBredd]

The hounds are immensely powerful as they are basically wolf-bears that are somehere in between a Clydsdale and a quarter horse. Basically the size of an elk. I have been in the real world around creatures such as Bison, Moose, and Elk. They are MASSIVE creatures but luckily herbivores. The hounds have survived for hundreds of thousands of years as stated previously in this thread-that alone speaks volumes about their resilience, ferocity, and intelligence. All charavters have their limitations and arent immune to being killed. The hounds are no exception. And they are smart enough to choose their own battles. Just remember that the folks who killed hounds were either lucky or insanely badass (Karsa).

[NefaraisBredd]

 Abyss, on 18 April 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

Couple of points....

 NefaraisBredd, on 18 April 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

...Karsa is a true Toblakai in every sense of the word.

What is a 'true' Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai? Were they a race in themselves or a byproduct of the Thel Akai as seems likely? We don't actually know.


And since Karsa's parents were both Teblor, he cannot be a true blooded anything. You're mixing a comment made about his power or aspect for his bloodline. Bellurdan Skullcrasher is the only 'true' T3 we've ever met in the pre-Kharkanas books and he was a full blown High Mage nothing like Karsa.

Quote

He carries the souls of his victims in his wake like a true Toblakai of ages past,

He does, but I believe we have zero evidence that this was a thing other Thelomen or spin-off races did. Am pretty sure that was Karsa specific thanks to the CG and/or Rockfaces' meddling.

Quote

he killed two Deragoth WITH EASE.

He had help from Leoman at the end there, and still took wounds. Wouldn't call it 'ease'.

Quote

He shrugs off Arch mage sorcery/magic like its nothing!!!!

Interesting point this... in HoC we saw a 'mere' squad mage stop him with Ruse, but he later bulls his way through the Silanda Edur mages' chaos... something he himself was linked to by then.


He forces his way through some further rituals but i don't think we actually saw Karsa 'fight' a serious mage, much less a High/Archmage again in the series that I can recall offhand.

Quote

he defeats a K'chain single handedly

Absolutely true, tho it had just escaped a few millenia of imprisonment. Still impressive tho'.

Quote

and is prolly one of the very few people capable of defeating Icarium.

He did drop Iccy with one punch, but if that encounter had proceeded i'm not as certain it would have ended well for Karsa.

Note that Mappo Trell and Urko both dropped Karsa with one hit.

"What is a 'true' Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai? Were they a race in themselves or a byproduct of the Thel Akai as seems likely? We don't actually know."



Well,

The Thel Akai (Ereko, for example) are a the First People so, Bellurdan is Thel Akai hence, he qualifies as more 'true blood' than Karsa. That being said, Karsa is about as close as possible to a direct descendant of the Thel Akai as one could be-he is a Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai. And there are no mre Thel Akai existing as far as we know so ipso facto, Karsa is as true blooded as one could be at that time.

Thel Akai and Thelomen Tarthenl Toblakai have the same physiology (7 feet or taller, four lungs, immunity to disease/infection/rapid healing) and same talents (warren, natural magic resistance) with different expressions individually. Karsa created his own warren, which is referenced multiple times throughout the series.

In Karsa's case (and the Edur) the magical resistance is likely amplified by the blood oil/resin and bloodwood. I think the idea has merit. A personal warren would also absorb a lot of nasty magics being tossed your way. In response to your assertion that,

"He forces his way through some further rituals but i don't think we actually saw Karsa 'fight' a serious mage, much less a High/Archmage again in the series that I can recall offhand."

In Reapers Gale or the preceeding/following book, Karsa ignores Binadas' (a 2nd teir Arch Mage) magics and polaxes him, lol. There are MANY other examples of Karsa shrugging off powerful magics, especially later in the series.

You seem to forget that he was basically a child/teenager when we (the reader) first meet him in the series. That can explain why he was bested by that bastard Silgar but thank the Gods for Torvald (Knuckles) Nom!

As Karsa grows in experience/stature/power, his warren keeps collecting energy (souls) which is referenced numerous times, come to think of it. Similarily, Bellurdan manifested his warren through his incredible prowess as a mage. He was a 1st teir Arch Mage because he was a warren unto himself/naturally profoundly talented due to his bloodline.

From the Web:

"It was known that certain Thelomen Toblakai could essentially become their own Warrens; the exact abilities and circumstances that surrounded this were unknown. Karsa Orlong appeared to be one such, channeling his Warren into the ability to ignore the structures and effects of spells, even Elder magic such as the T'lan Imass' Tellann. "

http://malazan.wikia...elomen_Toblakai



I admit that Karsa killing the Deragoth 'with ease' was a slight overstatement however, only slightly as he killed TWO Deragoth. Remember that they are hundreds of thousands of years old with all the power and cunning that comes with the experience. With a smidgeon of 'help' from blondie. Osric tells the reader just how badass the Hounds of Darkness really are.

Please tell me who (other than a handful of 1st-teir characters) is more badass than Karsa mutha effing Orlong? Dassem Mary Sue Swordtor and Anomandaris Mary Sue PuRake?

[Abyss]

 NefaraisBredd, on 19 April 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

"What is a 'true' Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai? Were they a race in themselves or a byproduct of the Thel Akai as seems likely? We don't actually know."

Well,

The Thel Akai (Ereko, for example) are a the First People so, Bellurdan is Thel Akai hence, he qualifies as more 'true blood' than Karsa. That being said, Karsa is about as close as possible to a direct descendant of the Thel Akai as one could be-he is a Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai. And there are no mre Thel Akai existing as far as we know so ipso facto, Karsa is as true blooded as one could be at that time.

Thel Akai and Thelomen Tarthenl Toblakai have the same physiology (7 feet or taller, four lungs, immunity to disease/infection/rapid healing) and same talents (warren, natural magic resistance) with different expressions individually. Karsa created his own warren, which is referenced multiple times throughout the series.

There's a lot of theory there and not much quote to back it up. You could be right, but the point is made repeatedly that Karsa is unique, so i doubt holding him up as any kind of standard for either older race is likely to stick.

Quote

In Karsa's case (and the Edur) the magical resistance is likely amplified by the blood oil/resin and bloodwood. I think the idea has merit. A personal warren would also absorb a lot of nasty magics being tossed your way. In response to your assertion that,

"He forces his way through some further rituals but i don't think we actually saw Karsa 'fight' a serious mage, much less a High/Archmage again in the series that I can recall offhand."

In Reapers Gale or the preceeding/following book, Karsa ignores Binadas' (a 2nd teir Arch Mage) magics and polaxes him, lol. There are MANY other examples of Karsa shrugging off powerful magics, especially later in the series.

Absolutely right re Binadas, and now that i think about it he had no problems with Bidithal or Febryl either.
Agreed re the bloodwood/bloodoil... and to go one further, i think the influence of the otataral in the ground and environment around Karsa's Teblor tribe, along with the Rockface's meddling, likely contributes to why his tribe is different from other Thel Akai/Thelomen subspecies.

Quote

You seem to forget that he was basically a child/teenager when we (the reader) first meet him in the series. That can explain why he was bested by that bastard Silgar but thank the Gods for Torvald (Knuckles) Nom!

As Karsa grows in experience/stature/power, his warren keeps collecting energy (souls) which is referenced numerous times, come to think of it. Similarily, Bellurdan manifested his warren through his incredible prowess as a mage. He was a 1st teir Arch Mage because he was a warren unto himself/naturally profoundly talented due to his bloodline.

Bellurdan was a 'classic' T3, using their racial warren. Not the same as what Karsa does. He's not a mage for starters, and nowhere is it even suggested that Bellurdan was carrying around the souls of his victims or any kind of 'warren unto himself'. That's a Karsa thing caused by his own will and the CG and Rockface investments.

Quote

From the Web:

"It was known that certain Thelomen Toblakai could essentially become their own Warrens; the exact abilities and circumstances that surrounded this were unknown. Karsa Orlong appeared to be one such, channeling his Warren into the ability to ignore the structures and effects of spells, even Elder magic such as the T'lan Imass' Tellann. "

http://malazan.wikia...elomen_Toblakai

Yes, absolutely accurate, but not Bellurdan.

Quote

I admit that Karsa killing the Deragoth 'with ease' was a slight overstatement however, only slightly as he killed TWO Deragoth. Remember that they are hundreds of thousands of years old with all the power and cunning that comes with the experience. With a smidgeon of 'help' from blondie. Osric tells the reader just how badass the Hounds of Darkness really are.

Please tell me who (other than a handful of 1st-teir characters) is more badass than Karsa mutha effing Orlong? Dassem Mary Sue Swordtor and Anomandaris Mary Sue PuRake?

Actually, yes. Rake took out two Hounds without even breathing hard, and in TtH Karsa was in awe of Dassem and Rake's swordplay.

A 'Mary Sue' means a thinly veiled author insertion character. Doesn't apply to either of those.

[NefaraisBredd]

Words are subjective in their meaning; I took Mary Sue to mean unbelievably powerful characters whom nobody can beat. Thats what Mary Sue basically means to me. Either way, great discussion!

[Abyss]

Fair enough if that's how you interpret it, but both Rake and Dassem get beaten and suffer losses. Some are a little more subtle than 'stabbed til he drops', but even so, there's way way more to the characters than 'unbeateable powerhouse'. I know that's a running critique of the Malazan series by people who haven't actually read it through, but it's just not accurate. The biggest guns get taken out by 'mere humans' and sometimes just bad luck.


Which brings us back to there being more to Karsa than a tank with a big sword.

...and yah, great discussion.

[worry]

I jeer the discussion and curse everyone who took part in it.

[Abyss]

 Luv2B_Sassy, on 20 April 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

I jeer the discussion and curse everyone who took part in it.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

[NefaraisBredd]

I unclog my nose at you!
I fart in your general direction!

Lmao

[Zetubal]

Aw man, missed this discussion completely. Then again, it played out beautifully.
Didn't like being called out on my presumed "lack of understanding", though. But Abyss's response made up for that

[NefaraisBredd]

i get a little upset when people question Karsa's badassness lol. You clearly have knowledge and passion about this series and I failed to honour that. I too am an avid fan who may be a little biased when it comes to Karsa as he is a more recent iteration of my fav character (and SE's apparently) Conan the Barbarian (and Groo just a little bit too lol). my future self will remember to take a breath before responsing to any slights against my beloved Karsa lol.

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 26 April 2018 - 12:54 AM

[Gorefest]

I am sure Karsa can stand up for himself.