[Zetubal]

Hey,

I want to talk about something that has always bugged me about the Malazan Series...It's a bit intangible but I'll try to make it as clear as possible: What's so great about the Hounds?

Let's go through this: At the beginning of GotM we get this super awesome introduction where the Hounds of Shadow easily wipe out a couple hundred soldiers in a matter of minutes. Later in that novel they prove their awesomeness against Tattersail's fairly advanced magic and take out Hairlock. As powerful as they seem by that point, it all goes downhill from there. Rake dispatches two of them without breaking a sweat and scares the others into a retreat (implying that he alone could have taken all of them out).
Now, I hear you typing "But that's effin Anomander Rake - he's uniquely awesome, so that doesn't count". And here's the thing...while Anomander is superbly awesome and stands out among his peers, that is not to say that there aren't countless entities that can deal with the Hounds.

I can only partly prove this (remember, it's a bit of an intangible thing). When it comes to confrontations within the books we have Apsalar holding them off in Soliel's temple. Remembers that while she is supremely skilled and draws on the powers of Shadow, she's still technically a mere mortal. Same thing goes for Karsa who kills two Deragoth. Karsa may be powerful and all, but then again he's also mortal and - though of a less degenerated bloodline than most of his race - a mere shadow of the original Thel Akai/Toblakai civilization. From the beginning of HoC, we're led to believe that he's just some fairly powerful young fighter among his tribe. Bairoth Gild is not that much inferior to him, and we have no reason to assume that Karsa's martial prowess is unparalleled among the Teblor.
Going back to the Hounds thingy, we see how Karsa can hold his own against them doggies in the showdown of TtH. During that showdown we also see Barathol Mekhar - who is a normal human without access to any magics and has not been an active fighter for years, take on a Hound. Granted, that Hound was wounded and all but it doesn't change the fact that guys like Barathol can (mortally) wound Hounds. Also, we learn from Tulas Shorn's move that picking up a Hound and dropping it from a great height can also kill them.
Ah, and there's the one that's driven away by Moranth munitions in NoK.

So, what we know about Hounds is that they don't die from age, and heal unnaturally fast, that they are relatively resistant to physical injury, although not impervious to it, and that the same thing applies to their resistance (not immunity) to magic. To kill them, you do all the same things that kill a regular wolf/dog except with greater force behind it.

Just from this information, we can compile a list of characters/groups that can theoretically deal with Hounds. Keep in mind though that this part marks the beginning of pure speculation (and potential misunderstandings):

1) Superhumanly capable mortal fighters (like Karsa or Apsalar): This arguably includes guys like Rhulad on resurrection steroids, Trull, Icarium, Greymane, high-ranked Seguleh, Mortal Onos T'oolan, maybe Brys, Quick Ben. Kallor nearly wets himself at the climax of TtH when he hears them howl but judging from his martial prowess, I would argue that he could possibly take on one or two. Guy is just afraid of facing strong foes on the off chance that he might die.
2) Ascendants and other immortals (Rake): Now this is where is gets difficult. The way Rake "kills" the Hound is pretty simple: He slices through them with Draginpur. While Draginpur ensures that his hits are one hit kills, we know from Karsas fight against the Deragoth that slicing Hounds up can kill them. Thus, given a durable weapon and an ascendant's force behind it, we can assume that many could do the trick. Caladan Brood comes to mind, so do Iron Bars, Skinner, Dancer, Dassem etc.
2,5) Elder Gods: Now, for the most part these guys are on par or even more badass than "contemporary" ascendants. In TtH (iirc) the Hounds shrink away from Spite's and Envy's magic, which would imply that it could obliterate them. If that's the case, I'm willing to bet that guys like Mael or Draconus could also easily kill a Hound. Think of Kilmandaros who kills frickin Eleint(!) by punching them in the face (...or is that a snout rather..?).
3) Some members of Elder Races: And here we come to the really hypothetical. First, there's the fact that a degenerate Teblor like Karsa pretty much makes a habit of killing Hounds. If he can do that, I'm willing to believe that his supremely powerful ancestors among the Thel Akai/Toblakai could do that as well. Then there's the Jaghut. Well, they have shown again and again how absurdly powerful at least some of them like Hood, Gothos, and Raest are. Given the ease with which they dispose of otherwise powerful entities, or warp landscapes, I'd say there's little chance of a Hound beating a capable Jaghut. With the K'Chain, I'd say that's really open to debate. In DoD we see the devastation of their machinery, and we learn that some K'Chain like the Shi'Gal are super strong, can fly and are also highly resistant to physical injury.

4) Eleint: Soletaken Tulas Shorn shows how easy it is to kill two Hounds. Using that method, pretty much all Soletaken Eleint as well are the pureblooded ones can decimate Hounds.
5) D'ivers like Gryllen or the one made of flesh-eating bugs in DG. Really, no idea how the Hounds are supposed to deal with that.



So, long story short: The Hounds are awesome tools of destruction...against your everyday mortal human guys. They can ambush a couple hundred soldiers and raid a hapless city that is widely known not to have any military of its own. But against the big players within the Malazan universe, they seem helplessly outclassed.
But then, there's so much hype around them. Whenever they appear on a location it's like "Ohmygawd it's the Hounds" as if they were something outrageous. Shadowthrone is like crazy about them, and the Liosan send theirs to retrieve Draginpur...as if they'd have any chance against any other superpowered being that could get in their way.

It actually gets ridiculous when we're led to understand that these mutts have mostly been around from the ancient times when all these superbeings where at the peak of their respective civilizations. We only ever see them dominating puny humans which have only been around for the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. Unless they can fetch the newspaper for Shadowthrone I don't see how they're a greatly valuably asset or at least one that lives up to the hype.

...Or maybe I'm too much of a cat person after all.



Guys, tell me how you feel/felt about the Hounds? Is there some hidden awesomeness to them that I fail to see? Have you perchance also been bugged by their "underwhelmingness"?

[McTaco]

Hey Zetubal,

Though I'm new to the forums, your post made me want to signup and add my two cents. As a writing convention, it's always really handy to have a "boogie man" in the closet. It gives you this scalable, malleable force that can be the stuff of nightmares, or just enough to keep the kids from leaving their bed at night. The Hounds strike me as this kind of convention. When the books were new, Erikson could use them to say, "Hey there's stuff in this universe that makes humans look like used matchsticks. Just FYI". As the world got bigger and we learned about other forces like Jaghut tyrants, gods, ascendants, etc. they're no longer required to be that powerful. That roll has been taken over by other characters and forces in the MBotF.

We all like to have nice, measurable qualities to characters and creatures in fantasy. It appeals to our inner D&D nerd when we know exactly how many hit points a "thing" has. We want to measure and quantify every part of fantasy so we can understand why "A" is stronger than "B", but not "C". Erikson's writing has always been more about theme than it has been about statistics. I like to equate his writing to watercolour vs graphic arts. Watercolour is somewhat more vague, more ethereal but you're still able to clearly see a boat, or a leaf in the painting. You're just not hit over the head with it like you are in a more graphic image sense.

I hope that helped.

[Aptorian]

I think their power early on is also another GOTM'ism. Gardens of the Moon does not mesh with the rest of the series. As far as I recall, when the Hounds attack Tattersail it's even said that mortal weapons can't even harm them, which is of course a pretty heavy amount of armor.

But just to make a counter argument to your criticism of the hounds, the only place in the series where we see them downplayed is Toll the Hounds. The other circumstances you mention speak more about the character's involved.

Not-Apsalar is not just some mortal. She's a carbon copy of a god. She'd powerful enough to kick one of these things through a wall. The sheer amount of physics defying power involved in breaking a Hounds momentum and launching it through a wall is staggering.

Karsa similarly is an ascendant. He's got a personal warren powered by ignorance. If Karsa believes he can kill a hound, he can kill it.

[Nevyn]

You are discussing this as if it is a problem when it is a narrative answer.

Hounds aren't end bosses.

They are established early as fearsome and deadly by human standards, and as such provide a measuring stick for how awesome others are.

[worry]

I think they're magic.

[Zetubal]

 McTaco, on 30 August 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Hey Zetubal,

Though I'm new to the forums, your post made me want to signup and add my two cents. As a writing convention, it's always really handy to have a "boogie man" in the closet. It gives you this scalable, malleable force that can be the stuff of nightmares, or just enough to keep the kids from leaving their bed at night. The Hounds strike me as this kind of convention. When the books were new, Erikson could use them to say, "Hey there's stuff in this universe that makes humans look like used matchsticks. Just FYI". As the world got bigger and we learned about other forces like Jaghut tyrants, gods, ascendants, etc. they're no longer required to be that powerful. That roll has been taken over by other characters and forces in the MBotF.

We all like to have nice, measurable qualities to characters and creatures in fantasy. It appeals to our inner D&D nerd when we know exactly how many hit points a "thing" has. We want to measure and quantify every part of fantasy so we can understand why "A" is stronger than "B", but not "C". Erikson's writing has always been more about theme than it has been about statistics. I like to equate his writing to watercolour vs graphic arts. Watercolour is somewhat more vague, more ethereal but you're still able to clearly see a boat, or a leaf in the painting. You're just not hit over the head with it like you are in a more graphic image sense.

I hope that helped.

And here I similarly created an account mainly to discuss this topic Funny how these things play out.
I get what you are trying to convey but there's a distinction to be made here, between what the function of the Hounds within the world of the novels is, and what they are supposed to accomplish for the audience. Your argument explains the latter, while I was more interested in the former. See, I get that the Hounds serve as a means to introducing supernatural forces that dwarf humans. And, similarly, I understand that as the novels progress, and SE ups the ante, creatures like the Hounds (naturally) pale in comparison to other "big bads" that pop up later along the lines.
The gripe that I have with that, though, is that the Hounds are still treated by characters, even ascendants, as powerful tools and weapons. Like there's mystery surrounding them and they're supposedly this major asset. In reality, and that's what my argument was all about, the Hounds are not all that useful when shit hits the fan. I mean, think of the Hounds' masters. On the one hand you have Shadowthrone and Cotillion, and on the other you have an Eleint-Soletaken Liosan (and his similarly soletaken dozen of buddies). I just find it hard to imagine that if either of those masters were to face danger at the hands of...well...anything that would be dangerous to them, having a couple of those Hounds would be that great of a "shaved knuckle in the hole".

What I mean is that they're basically hench-hounds that don't do well against any major powerhouse in the world of ascendants and elder creatures. So when Fant has the bright idea to send a couple of these mutts to retrieve Draginpur from a convergence of ascendant powers it feels like a gross mismatch. That's as if in Game of Thrones Cersei had to find a way to kill Daenerys' dragons and her weapon of choice were Ser Bronn. I mean, sure, dude can handle himself well in a fight against most foes, but I wouldn't put my money on him against 3tons of scale-armored, flying, firebreathing awesomeness.

 Alternative Goose, on 30 August 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think their power early on is also another GOTM'ism. Gardens of the Moon does not mesh with the rest of the series. As far as I recall, when the Hounds attack Tattersail it's even said that mortal weapons can't even harm them, which is of course a pretty heavy amount of armor.

But just to make a counter argument to your criticism of the hounds, the only place in the series where we see them downplayed is Toll the Hounds. The other circumstances you mention speak more about the character's involved.

Not-Apsalar is not just some mortal. She's a carbon copy of a god. She'd powerful enough to kick one of these things through a wall. The sheer amount of physics defying power involved in breaking a Hounds momentum and launching it through a wall is staggering.

Karsa similarly is an ascendant. He's got a personal warren powered by ignorance. If Karsa believes he can kill a hound, he can kill it.

Glad to read that. I also felt that GotM is somehow jarringly at odds with things mentioned or shown later on in the series. May I ask where you got that info on Karsa?

As to your counter argument, yeah, as I said, I get that there are simply powerhouses that Hounds can't deal with and that in some of the instances I mentioned it speaks more to the prowess of others characters (barring stuff like Barathol's "fight" with the wounded Hound and the munition thrown at one in NoK). Still, that leaves me with the question "when would you want to use the Hounds then", like what's the value to them (and characters in the novels make it pretty clear that Hounds are considered might assets). I already kind of said that further above in this post, but the further I got in the MBotF the more I realized how limited the usefulness of these beasts is. I mean, since they can't speak they can't be used for anything outside of fighting (or guarding stuff). And anyone powerful enough to mess with either master of the Hounds is easily powerful enough to wipe the floor with the Hounds.

From what we have seen so far, there are two things that the Hounds can efficiently do: Munch on mortal humans and fend off Soletaken/D'ivers in DG (though that is sometimes already tough on them). And that, to me, doesn't justify the hype surrounding them.

Just to reiterate this: It's not that they're completely useless. It's more like they have rather limited uses and are therefore grossly overhyped.

 worry, on 30 August 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

I think they're magic.

I think your post was magic

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 30 August 2017 - 08:18 PM

[Aptorian]

Karsa's "personal warren" is stuff that is puzzled together over the course of the books.

You have mentions of the old Thelomen Tharthano Toblakai being warrens on to themselves. You have mentions of the Jaghut Karsa meets marvelling at Karsa's ignorance - ie. he just smashes through a ward meant to keep the Jaghut trapped, even though it should probably have killed him. But it doesn't because he's too stupid to know he should be dead. Similar stuff with Samar Dev, etc.

Karsa's success relies heavily of him being a savage who is too ignorant to know he's supposed to be scared of all these gods and monsters he encounters.

The forum theory goes that this creates a kind of field around him which, combined with him being saturated with ottataral and favored by the Crippled God, makes him able to do and survive things he really shouldn't have. Coupled with a surprisingly sharp brain, that makes him very dangerous.

The Hounds aren't weak at all. They can run through walls and armies like a freight train. The chew through armor, they don't care about swords, they can jump through warrens and they will eat you. Sure, an ascendant or a high mage can trick them or hurt them but even Rake showed them a considerable amount of respect. Again just because some characters have killed them or eluded them doesn't make them weak. Kallor stabbed a dragon to death with one sword blow. That doesn't mean I'm going to start thumbing my nose at giant magic breathing lizards.

Also about those munitions hurting hounds, that's actually explained. Moranth munitions can destroy magic. They'll chew throw a mages warrens and blow a big hole in a dragon. I imagine there's a difference between various types of munition used but if you throw a cusser at a Hound of Shadow, it might actually kill it if you're lucky. Of course it might just seriously piss it off.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 30 August 2017 - 08:42 PM

[Abyss]

Y'know, i think the underlying point is that there are not 'countless' ascendants strolling around who can take a Hound or Hounds.

Sure, there are a few exceptional individuals like Karsa or Apsalar or even Gryllen, but stretch that to include every draconic soletaken, active Eleint, the entire Malazan Pantheon plus still active Elder Gods and we're still talking about less than a hundred people on a world of millions/billions.

Stretch that to include every single surviving Jaghut (Assail included), every Edur mage who knows the right command words, and every Azalan Shadow demon in Meanas we're still talking about a relatively small group as opposed to pretty much everyone else who would be puppychow.


The Deragoth dominated an entire continent, domesticated the early humans, and made the technologically advance KChain look somewhere else for new territory.

Point being yes, the books focus on exceptional, even unique individuals/beings who can take the Hounds, but that just makes the point of how exceptional they are, not how underpowered the Hounds are.

[Zetubal]

First of all, thanks to you, Goose, for shedding light on these Karsa theories. Seems absolutely legit and leaves me kind of convinced. Certainly helps when trying to put Karsa's achievesments in perspective. Same thing goes for Moranth munitions destroying magic - didn't know that, so thanks.

As for the rest, I'll try to respond to you, and Abyss, because I feel the response to both of you would pretty much be the same either way.

 Alternative Goose, on 30 August 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

The Hounds aren't weak at all. They can run through walls and armies like a freight train. The chew through armor, they don't care about swords, they can jump through warrens and they will eat you. Sure, an ascendant or a high mage can trick them or hurt them but even Rake showed them a considerable amount of respect. Again just because some characters have killed them or eluded them doesn't make them weak. Kallor stabbed a dragon to death with one sword blow. That doesn't mean I'm going to start thumbing my nose at giant magic breathing lizards.

 Abyss, on 31 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Y'know, i think the underlying point is that there are not 'countless' ascendants strolling around who can take a Hound or Hounds.

Sure, there are a few exceptional individuals like Karsa or Apsalar or even Gryllen, but stretch that to include every draconic soletaken, active Eleint, the entire Malazan Pantheon plus still active Elder Gods and we're still talking about less than a hundred people on a world of millions/billions.

Stretch that to include every single surviving Jaghut (Assail included), every Edur mage who knows the right command words, and every Azalan Shadow demon in Meanas we're still talking about a relatively small group as opposed to pretty much everyone else who would be puppychow.

The Deragoth dominated an entire continent, domesticated the early humans, and made the technologically advance KChain look somewhere else for new territory.

Point being yes, the books focus on exceptional, even unique individuals/beings who can take the Hounds, but that just makes the point of how exceptional they are, not how underpowered the Hounds are.

I can only repeat myself when I say that I don't think that the Hounds are weak. They aren't. Like not at all. But that's not what I'm getting at. When faced with regular human beings, barring a few exceptional individuals, the Hounds are mighty foes. And yes, humans make up like 99% of the population during MBotF. But here's the deal (and that's, once again, me repeating myself): What's so great about having a bunch of Hounds that can obliterate puny humans?
Think of it like that: Hounds, as of MBotF, are not exactly independent actors but they're beasts on the leashes of their Masters. These masters are either ascendants of Elder Race powerhouses. Either way, they could easily vanquish any human opposition with their own powers, be it magic or physical power. Humans, that is most of them, don't pose much of a threat. Unless they gang up in armies like the Malazan ones which ideally include some exceptional individuals and a buttload of Moranth munitions....Anyway, for the sake of an argument let's just say that Hounds are good for dominating humans.

Thing is, the most formidable foes that stand in the way of ascendants or guys like Fant are other powerhouses. And against those foes, Hounds frankly aren't that awesome.

Abyss touches upon a valid point when he says that the books focus on exceptional individuals and in some ways that screws with how readers perceive the "power levels" of creatures in Wu. However, you could easily turn this argument around by saying that the MBotF gives us reason to believe that all these extraordinary individuals typically have to confront other extraordinary individuals. And if that's the case, I'd say the usefulness of Hounds is rather limited.

[worry]

Why should their existence hinge on their utility to others? Should yours?

[Zetubal]

 worry, on 31 August 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

Why should their existence hinge on their utility to others? Should yours?

I'm not questioning their general raison d'être but the legitimacy of the hype surrounding them. Ah, and no, mine shouldn't. It had better not.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 31 August 2017 - 08:39 PM

[Abyss]

 Zetubal, on 31 August 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

...
However, you could easily turn this argument around by saying that the MBotF gives us reason to believe that all these extraordinary individuals typically have to confront other extraordinary individuals.

Convergence IS a thing in this book. So yes, yes that's exactly it.

Quote

And if that's the case, I'd say the usefulness of Hounds is rather limited.

Dejim Nebral might disagree with you.Also that sea monster d'ivers shapeshifter from DG.

[Siergiej]

That's an interesting discussion. I also don't think looking at Hounds or any characters in the books in purely utilitarian or mechanical terms is a good approach. As McTaco pointed out, Erikson deliberately avoids characterization via easily defined power levels. Trull Sengar ascends to be the Knight of Shadow, holds Icarium back, and ends up stabbed to death by a random dude. This doesn't mean that Trull did not live up to his hype as the Knight of Shadow. It only means he's dead because people tend to die when stabbed.


I'm pretty sure if Barathol Mehar swung his axe at Anomander Rake, he would kill or wound him. I'm also sure that if Anomander Rake stepped on a cusser, he would explode to bits. Being powerful does not make you invulnerable - also one of SE's points in the Malazan Book.

Hounds are feared and respected, because they are formidable. They've been around for hundreds of thousands of years, serving two roles you mentioned - guarding and killing. And they're still around, which is pretty impressive in itself. Silly as it sounds, look at this from the perspective of Anomander Rake, or Caladan Brood, or whoever who has witnessed almost the entire history of this world. They've seen countless gods and ascendants killed in convergences or trapped in Azath. They've seen armies obliterated in wars, empires falling to conquerors, and so on. And Hounds of Shadow are still around. Power draws power is a fundamental law of the Malazan world - so if you wield a lot of power and stay alive for thousands of years, you're a force to be reckoned with.

Also, you mentioned that there's no point for gods and 'powerhouses' to have servants like Hounds because any opposition Hounds can face, a god can face too. Well, I'm pretty sure Nightchill, Olar Ethil, Trull Sengar, Calm, and possibly some others would disagree

[Abyss]

 Siergiej, on 01 September 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

... you mentioned that there's no point for gods and 'powerhouses' to have servants like Hounds because any opposition Hounds can face, a god can face too. Well, I'm pretty sure Nightchill, Olar Ethil, Trull Sengar, Calm, and possibly some others would disagree

Solid examples... Nightchill dies when a bunch of Tayschren summoned demons got her, Olar Ethil got taken out by a magic arrow from a near dead mortal, and Trull was stabbed in the back by an ordinary knife held by an ordinary dude. There are so many examples in these books of 'ordinary' mortals hurting or killing gods.

On this point, in GotM, Rake, facing ST and the Hounds, flat out says they may beat him. He adds that their odds are even better if Cotillion is around, but even so, a god with a pack of millenia old massive killing machines on their side can be one up on a god who doesn't have them.

[Adhara]

Oh my, when you wrote that "Unless they can fetch the newspaper for Shadowthrone I don't see how they're a greatly valuably asset" you made me !

My two cents: they are there for The Worf Effect.

[Abyss]

 Morgan Lefay, on 05 September 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Oh my, when you wrote that "Unless they can fetch the newspaper for Shadowthrone I don't see how they're a greatly valuably asset" you made me !

My two cents: they are there for The Worf Effect.

CODE RED CODE RED MODGOD ALERT MODGOD ALERT
ACTIVE TVTROPES LINK IN THREAD
I REPEAT ACTIVE TV TROPES LINK IN THREAD
NUKE IT FROM ORBIT THEN BURN IT W FIRE IMMEDIATELY
PRIORITY ONE NUKE IT FROM ORBIT BURN IT W oooooooo crowning moments of awesome....
*opens seventeen more tabs to read immediately, resumes post six hours later*


...ahem... y'know, i never really thought of it that way but it's not a ridiculous theory.

That said the Hounds (all flavors) have enough history and story behind them that i give SE/ICE more credit that that for their inclusion in the books.

[Adhara]

Sorry, Abyss, but I don´t understand what´s wrong with TvTropes link. Did I something wrong? Feel free to edit, if it's the case.
(Or were you just jocking?)

[Abyss]

 Morgan Lefay, on 05 September 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

Sorry, Abyss, but I don´t understand what´s wrong with TvTropes link. Did I something wrong? Feel free to edit, if it's the case.
(Or were you just jocking?)

Joking. TVTropes is infamously addictive.



...now maybe you could just set your computer to 'share everything with everyone' and move closer to that nice well lit open window to your left...

[Adhara]

Mmm... I'm trying my best not to misunderstand that...

[Abyss]

Nonono, we're harmless, just having fun, no threats intended... you should totally go look out the window and see that no one is around, just to satisfy yourself that i am in fact kidding.
Go ahead, lean right out and check. Nothing will happen, i promise.



Leave your beverage right where it is tho.