[Terez]

I got the sense that she shut him down mostly because he was trying to chat her up and she was obliged to wait and see what Dany thought of him before being friendly.

Back to Bran...all of the child actors have grown up a bit, but man, he is the most drastic change. Probably because he's the youngest who wasn't recast or killed? Having a hard time thinking of anyone else in that category. Maisie Williams is fully grown and very petite so the difference isn't as stark.

[Khellendros]

Considering how the odds seemed overwhelmingly stacked against the Lannisters at the beginning of the season, I think the show's done a pretty good job of plausibly tipping the balance in their favour in such a short space of time (ignoring Euron's invisible teleporting fleet).

I like how Tyrion's plan has unravelled and the fact that he thinks like a Lannister was used against him by Jaime ("oh, they'll protect Casterly Rock at all costs" - nope!). I can't see him having much influence over Dany for the foreseeable future.

I thought this episode had a lot of good scenes, even if the dialogue has taken a noticeable downturn since they stopped cribbing from Martin. Still thoroughly enjoyable though.

And I agree with the minority who enjoy Euron - his "what a twat!" line about Theon elicited the biggest laugh from our house

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 01 August 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

....
On the Cersei thing, I get what you mean. I will say that smiley gloating Cersei felt a bit off. She used to have more smug, still mad, I-am-entitled-to-this smiles I think (like when she thought she found Tyrion's whore, and even when she got revenge on the septa. Her revenge scene on the sand snakes she seemed positively giddy.

Credit to the show tho, i was really expecting another Gregor rapefeste - given his history with Oberyn and Ellaria it would have made sense - and they went with something more appropriate and arguably darker.

[Nevyn]

Binder of Demons, on 01 August 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

I've had this weird feeling since she first appeared in the show, that Missande is not quite what she seems. Most of that stems from the fact that until she showed up, Jaqen was the only other person we had heard say the phrase Valar Morghulis (unless syrio had said it too?) So my initial thought was that she might be a faceless ma/person or something like that. Now i discounted that theory a while later when it seemed like that phrase was used more commonly in Bravos. But it still seems like something of a spy signal/countersign.

And then in last night's episode, when Davos tries to speak with her about where she's from, she shuts him down completely. Which made me think back to my old theory, and that she is merely playing someone from that part of the world but has never been there. (either that or she's very rude)

/removes tinfoil hat/

the cool thing with the pace of this season is that any mad theories will likely get played out in a few weeks.

I just took that as a sign that she finds fingers more useful than penises.

Or, less crudely, she's just not that in to Davos.

And no, I don't think she's a spy.

[JPK]

Nevyn, on 01 August 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

Binder of Demons, on 01 August 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

I've had this weird feeling since she first appeared in the show, that Missande is not quite what she seems. Most of that stems from the fact that until she showed up, Jaqen was the only other person we had heard say the phrase Valar Morghulis (unless syrio had said it too?) So my initial thought was that she might be a faceless ma/person or something like that. Now i discounted that theory a while later when it seemed like that phrase was used more commonly in Bravos. But it still seems like something of a spy signal/countersign.

And then in last night's episode, when Davos tries to speak with her about where she's from, she shuts him down completely. Which made me think back to my old theory, and that she is merely playing someone from that part of the world but has never been there. (either that or she's very rude)

/removes tinfoil hat/

the cool thing with the pace of this season is that any mad theories will likely get played out in a few weeks.

I just took that as a sign that she finds fingers more useful than penises.

Or, less crudely, she's just not that in to Davos.

And no, I don't think she's a spy.

I was thinking her reaction to Davos here was much more simple than that. She was taken into slavery at a young age and moved into Slaver's Bay. It entirely depends on the age at which she was taken, but I doubt she has many memories of the land of her birth. Davos' small talk at the beauty of the land fell flat to her because she couldn't relate to the emotions he was trying to draw out in her.

[Cause]

[Spoilers] it makes for good TV I guess but I'm a little annoyed with how the show writers have created the new suspense.

Danny went from overwhelmingly strong to slapped down by the lannisters in 2 episodes. The naval fleet battle at night I was willing to accept. Yara was overconfident and Eye on surprised them at sea. To have Jaime March the entire lannisters army from the rock to high garden without anyone noticing? Also the whole point of castles is that they slow you down or disrupt your supply lines if you leave them untaken. I didn't think the plan was for the unsukkied to storm the rock in a day, though it was, but equally high garden should not have fallen in a day. This was a case of plot over sense.

Also in the minds of most people losing your castle looks bad. No matter how much strategy was involved it would make the queen look weak. You can't go around explaining your brilliance to every peasant in the land. Or that your gold mines have been secretly dry for years. Losing the rock also essentially means losing casterly port.

Lastly the iron bank supports the slave trade? The show has not made much of it. But Bravos was founded by escaped slaves. Slavery is illegal and all Bravosi in the books seem morally opposed to it. Banking institutions are pretty immoral still I thought that was odd. [/spoilers]

[Dadding]

Terez, on 01 August 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

Maisie Williams is fully grown and very petite so the difference isn't as stark.

No one's going to comment on this brilliant pun?

[Terez]

I hate puns, so it was less brilliant and more "I hope no one notices because I'm tired and I can't think of a better word right now."

[Dadding]

Terez, on 02 August 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

I hate puns

Heathen!

[QuickTidal]

I'm only through ep one so far (which I loved)....but I'm calling this now anyways.

When Jaime inevitably goes north at Cerise's behest...he will see the White Walkers, or some variation of that...and realize that the armies need a badass commander at their head, and will abandon his goals with Cersei in service to the call to arms instead. I would imagine he'd have no trouble serving under Dany. I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that Jaime's martial prowess and battle-skills would be his raison d'être come the end game of the series.

Also that he might finally release how USED he is by his sister.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm only through ep one so far (which I loved)....but I'm calling this now anyways.

When Jaime inevitably goes north at Cerise's behest...he will see the White Walkers, or some variation of that...and realize that the armies need a badass commander at their head, and will abandon his goals with Cersei in service to the call to arms instead. I would imagine he'd have no trouble serving under Dany. I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that Jaime's martial prowess and battle-skills would be his raison d'être come the end game of the series.

Also that he might finally release how USED he is by his sister.

Jaime killed Dany's father... not so sure that allows for a friendly working relationship, notwithstanding stuff in eps you haven't seen yet.

Slight variation... Jaime sees the Army of the Dead etc, returns to Cersei, is politely told everyone can die as far as she's concerned, hilarity and poisoning ensues... wouldn't be surprised if he doses his wine and her and takes them both out with the same stuff he used on Oleanna.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm only through ep one so far (which I loved)....but I'm calling this now anyways.

When Jaime inevitably goes north at Cerise's behest...he will see the White Walkers, or some variation of that...and realize that the armies need a badass commander at their head, and will abandon his goals with Cersei in service to the call to arms instead. I would imagine he'd have no trouble serving under Dany. I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that Jaime's martial prowess and battle-skills would be his raison d'être come the end game of the series.

Also that he might finally release how USED he is by his sister.

Jaime killed Dany's father... not so sure that allows for a friendly working relationship, notwithstanding stuff in eps you haven't seen yet.

Slight variation... Jaime sees the Army of the Dead etc, returns to Cersei, is politely told everyone can die as far as she's concerned, hilarity and poisoning ensues... wouldn't be surprised if he doses his wine and her and takes them both out with the same stuff he used on Oleanna.

Yeah, but Dany knows her father was a dick/insane. She's no stranger to sending her own family off with molten gold hats if they are assclowns...so I doubt that will have a heavy effect on her and Jaime possibly working together in the future.

To your second point, possible...but I think the whole point of Jaime's character is the flawed, co-opted hero. He's this glorious specimen, everything his father wanted him to be, handsome, smart, a brilliant tactician, and a fantastic warrior...but at an early age his own sister basically swayed him under her spell and he's been there ever since. I think GRRM crafted him to specifically pull him out of that at the end to PLAY the hero in a real way. I think that's the entire point of his sojourn with Brienne, and his latter questioning of Cersei's motives and machinations (albeit loosely for the time being). I also think this is the point of his backstory during Robert's Rebellion, and taking out the Mad King. I think he saw it as his duty to remove the monarch who had lost his way, and he followed through when likely no one else could.

For whatever else he's done (See: throwing Bran out a window), I truly think GRRM intended him to be a redeemed villain/complex hero.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm only through ep one so far (which I loved)....but I'm calling this now anyways.

When Jaime inevitably goes north at Cerise's behest...he will see the White Walkers, or some variation of that...and realize that the armies need a badass commander at their head, and will abandon his goals with Cersei in service to the call to arms instead. I would imagine he'd have no trouble serving under Dany. I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that Jaime's martial prowess and battle-skills would be his raison d'être come the end game of the series.

Also that he might finally release how USED he is by his sister.

Jaime killed Dany's father... not so sure that allows for a friendly working relationship, notwithstanding stuff in eps you haven't seen yet.

Slight variation... Jaime sees the Army of the Dead etc, returns to Cersei, is politely told everyone can die as far as she's concerned, hilarity and poisoning ensues... wouldn't be surprised if he doses his wine and her and takes them both out with the same stuff he used on Oleanna.

Yeah, but Dany knows her father was a dick/insane. She's no stranger to sending her own family off with molten gold hats if they are assclowns...so I doubt that will have a heavy effect on her and Jaime possibly working together in the future.

To your second point, possible...but I think the whole point of Jaime's character is the flawed, co-opted hero. He's this glorious specimen, everything his father wanted him to be, handsome, smart, a brilliant tactician, and a fantastic warrior...but at an early age his own sister basically swayed him under her spell and he's been there ever since. I think GRRM crafted him to specifically pull him out of that at the end to PLAY the hero in a real way. I think that's the entire point of his sojourn with Brienne, and his latter questioning of Cersei's motives and machinations (albeit loosely for the time being). I also think this is the point of his backstory during Robert's Rebellion, and taking out the Mad King. I think he saw it as his duty to remove the monarch who had lost his way, and he followed through when likely no one else could.

For whatever else he's done (See: throwing Bran out a window), I truly think GRRM intended him to be a redeemed villain/complex hero.

Without his hand he is not a martial paragon anymore and I dont think he has ever been portrayed as a brilliant tactician. One moment in the TV series not withstanding. I wont be surprised if he kills cersei for much the same reason he killed Aerys. I think that is the true point of his character. Killing Aerys was the greatest thing he ever did, a selfless act that saved tens of thousands of lives. Yet everyone scorns him as the kinglsayer, as a traitor and as a false knight. He never told anyone why he did it. He serves to illustrate that honor exists externally and what others believe is more important than the truth. We also see this with the Mountain, with Sansa's early fantasies of chivalry and with Renley the perfect king who was actually a traitor to his elder brother.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 03 August 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Without his hand he is not a martial paragon anymore and I dont think he has ever been portrayed as a brilliant tactician. One moment in the TV series not withstanding. I wont be surprised if he kills cersei for much the same reason he killed Aerys. I think that is the true point of his character. Killing Aerys was the greatest thing he ever did, a selfless act that saved tens of thousands of lives. Yet everyone scorns him as the kinglsayer, as a traitor and as a false knight. He never told anyone why he did it. He serves to illustrate that honor exists externally and what others believe is more important than the truth. We also see this with the Mountain, with Sansa's early fantasies of chivalry and with Renley the perfect king who was actually a traitor to his elder brother.

I think the point of him losing his hand was to find the skill within himself to fight without it. Otherwise what was the side plot of him training with his other hand?

And I honestly think he's a pretty stable and excellently intelligent battle commander, who only fails in his one mission (season 2?) because of betrayal.

I just don't see them building up all these traits, ESPECIALLY the humbling sojourn with Brienne, if not to redeem him as the hero he could have always been. Even Tyrion has that faith in him for a long time. And Tyrion is the one of the smartest guy's in the books/show. I don't think that faith is based on some familial connection. I think it's Tyrion truly feeling his brother never got his due, and that he deserves it.

[amphibian]

Tyrion just got out witted by his two siblings to the point where half Danny's force is gone. All she has left are the dragons and the horsemen.

I think the point of the Olenna scene was to remind everyone that Jaime may be sympathetic, but he still is the same man, doing the same things he always did before. He might kill Cersei, but it'll be after tons of blood was already shed. Jaime, despite the Brienne bath scene, is not a hero who will rescue you. He'll stop the hurt from going further, but that's it.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 03 August 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

Tyrion just got out witted by his two siblings to the point where half Danny's force is gone. All she has left are the dragons and the horsemen.

I think the point of the Olenna scene was to remind everyone that Jaime may be sympathetic, but he still is the same man, doing the same things he always did before. He might kill Cersei, but it'll be after tons of blood was already shed. Jaime, despite the Brienne bath scene, is not a hero who will rescue you. He'll stop the hurt from going further, but that's it.

So he's not allowed any character growth out from under his sister's sway?

Nice.

eDIT:

Also have yet posited that maybe Jaime is the third head of the dragon? That he (and not Tyrion) and Cersei could be the illegitimate kids of Aerys? That he could fulfill the Lightbringer (which is forged in fire and tempered with the blood of the original Azor's beloved wife, Nissa Nissa) prophecy by killing his sister (his beloved) with Widows Wail who is ALSO a lion (the original Azor also killed as lion as he forged the sword) and thus creating Lightbringer.

Just curious if anyone thinks that will be a left field reveal or not?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 August 2017 - 05:01 PM

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Cause, on 03 August 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Without his hand he is not a martial paragon anymore and I dont think he has ever been portrayed as a brilliant tactician. One moment in the TV series not withstanding. I wont be surprised if he kills cersei for much the same reason he killed Aerys. I think that is the true point of his character. Killing Aerys was the greatest thing he ever did, a selfless act that saved tens of thousands of lives. Yet everyone scorns him as the kinglsayer, as a traitor and as a false knight. He never told anyone why he did it. He serves to illustrate that honor exists externally and what others believe is more important than the truth. We also see this with the Mountain, with Sansa's early fantasies of chivalry and with Renley the perfect king who was actually a traitor to his elder brother.

I think the point of him losing his hand was to find the skill within himself to fight without it. Otherwise what was the side plot of him training with his other hand?

And I honestly think he's a pretty stable and excellently intelligent battle commander, who only fails in his one mission (season 2?) because of betrayal.

I just don't see them building up all these traits, ESPECIALLY the humbling sojourn with Brienne, if not to redeem him as the hero he could have always been. Even Tyrion has that faith in him for a long time. And Tyrion is the one of the smartest guy's in the books/show. I don't think that faith is based on some familial connection. I think it's Tyrion truly feeling his brother never got his due, and that he deserves it.

Not an incompetent commander but nothing to indicate his brilliance either. Rob stark beet him soundly. I think that arc with brienne was as much for the readers benefit as his. Until that moment we also think he is the Kinglsayer, a self serving selfish lannister. Suddenly we see him in a whole new light. Jordans willingness to kill characters off not withstanding we are awash with military commanders. Jon Snow, Tarly, Tormun, Greyworm etc. The show even has Jaime recruit Tarly specifically because we are told he is a brilliant general. The only other people described as such in the books I think are Stannis.

Id argue his training with Bron exists to showcase he will never be as good as hew as no matter how he tries. He has a future but its not with a sword. Its his mind, and his awakening as a moral person who cares which matters.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 03 August 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

we are awash with military commanders. Jon Snow, Tarly, Tormun, Greyworm etc. The show even has Jaime recruit Tarly specifically because we are told he is a brilliant general. The only other people described as such in the books I think are Stannis.

Jon Snow is NOT a great military commander. He's passable, at best.

Tarly? Sure, I guess. But something tells me the entire point of his character is to show how stuck in the past he is, and therefore is set for a fall...probably on the battlefield decisions.

Tormun? No way. He's a hired goon, not a commander as far as I'm concerned.

Greyworm? I mean I suppose...he's a fantastic fighter...but does he have the skills to lead an army successfully on the battlefield in a country in which warfare is VERY different from how it is in his home continent? I don't know how that translates on the fly.

I'm just saying. Jaime feels like an optimum choice to lead soldiers against the White Walkers and do so well.

[Abyss]

To be fair, Jon did a solid job with he defence of the Wall when the Wildings attacked. He also managed a semi-decent evacuation from Hardhome, and was organizing the Wall just fine until he got stabbed by Nights Watch who disliked Jon recruiting the Wildings as allies.

The Battle of the Bastards was a complete mess, because Ramsey sucked him right in with the Rickon thing and, stupidly, the rest of his army followed the suicide run.

Just saying, he's more or less 1/1/1.

Jaime was outmanoeuvred by Robb, but has reclaimed a little military leadership karma since then. Call it 1/1.

Tyrion led the charge up to the Aerie, and the Blackwater. He was doing ok until he started advising Dany... now he's been outmanoeuvred by Cersei (or Jaime... but more likely it was Cersei who decided to yield Casterly Rock) doing the opposite of what he expects her to do.

Tormun hasn't led anything more 'on screen' than charging mobs, and Greyworm is pure tactical point-and-let fly so far as we've seen... his current subplot may show otherwise.

[Nevyn]

They aren't going to beat the walkers with military tactics anyway.

It is going to be a near lost fight held on to with dragonglass weapons, and quite like ex machina-ed with wolves and dragons.