[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 09 September 2020 - 04:38 PM, said:

That is a cool Trailer. I should do a Dune re-read. It's been at least 20 years since I read the book/books.

Also on a sidenote I continue to be happy every time I see Batista in a big budget movie. I feel like he's a legitimately good actor that's smart about the roles he picks or at least his agent is.

Bautista is personal friends with Vileneuve, which is why he's in BR2049 too.

Macros, on 09 September 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

Is Aquaman supposed to be Duncan Ihado? Not feeling that choice

amphibian, on 09 September 2020 - 05:46 PM, said:

Macros, on 09 September 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

Is Aquaman supposed to be Duncan Ihado? Not feeling that choice

Makes sense for Leto II to keep reviving Duncan over and over again if he's Momoa level hunky and smart.

Yep, considering Idaho is such a prominent figure after Dune (if you know, you know) choosing star power like Momoa is a smart and savvy choice.

HoosierDaddy, on 09 September 2020 - 05:55 PM, said:

Visuals look good. Plot is well... it's Dune. That's a lot of plot.

Is there a plan on this to be multiple films? Isn't Dune (IIRC) cut into basically 2 parts in the first book?

Yep, this will be part 1...

[Coco with marshmallows]

I know it's the job of trailers to make me go wow and get me hyped but god DAMN this is looking good so far.....

[stone monkey]

Nice trailer. Everybody looks great. Although I do find myself a trifle concerned about Chalamet's reading of Paul - he certainly looks the part, but can he act it?

I also find it an interesting choice for them to change the "jihad" that Paul sees he is the cause of in his future to a "crusade" - I'm assuming they're talking about that, of course, if they aren't they've profoundly misunderstood the book. I do wonder how that will play in the film, because one of those words, in the western world at least, has far more positive connotations than the other, despite them actually being exactly the same thing.

Cue further tiresome complaints about Dune getting "woke", I suppose.

[amphibian]

I don't think jihad and crusade are the same at all.

To be clear, crusade is the one I see in a more negative light.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 09 September 2020 - 11:09 PM

[Tsundoku]

amphibian, on 09 September 2020 - 11:08 PM, said:

I don't think jihad and crusade are the same at all.

To be clear, crusade is the one I see in a more negative light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to.

I'd like to say the trailer looks good, but I don't want to jinx it.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 10 September 2020 - 04:32 AM

[Morgoth]

stone monkey, on 09 September 2020 - 10:22 PM, said:

Nice trailer. Everybody looks great. Although I do find myself a trifle concerned about Chalamet's reading of Paul - he certainly looks the part, but can he act it?

I also find it an interesting choice for them to change the "jihad" that Paul sees he is the cause of in his future to a "crusade" - I'm assuming they're talking about that, of course, if they aren't they've profoundly misunderstood the book. I do wonder how that will play in the film, because one of those words, in the western world at least, has far more positive connotations than the other, despite them actually being exactly the same thing.

Cue further tiresome complaints about Dune getting "woke", I suppose.

The jihad thing stood out to me too. It feels worrisome, somehow.

Otherwise the trailer looks great, though I have to say I think the costumes look a little bland. Not quite the decadent space empire look I always envisioned. And the Fremen, I don't know, I had hoped for a little more Bedouins on a desert in space kind of style. Where's the personality they brought to their individual suits? It's not a big complaint, just a nitpick, but still.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 10 September 2020 - 07:45 AM

[polishgenius]

They changed Jihad to Crusade because Jihad has taken on an association in the west that did not exist when Herbert wrote it. Crusade is a more inherently negative term but that's not an issue here since this is the violent destructive kind of Jihad and not the spiritual struggle to which it also refers. But to most of the target audience using Jihad would have a specific anti-Western, Islamic religious violence connotation that would probably alienate people.

[blackzoid]

Well, whatever term they use to describe it, the Fremen Jihad/Crusade is fated in the books to kill billions right (82 Billion I think off hand)?
So it should be described in a bad way. I remember reading the book years after seeing the original film and it knocking my socks off that Leto Atreides would forsee his followers killing so many innocent people and his attempt to figure out a way to stop the eventual slaughter. So different to how the original film portrayed his ascension as an unquestioned good thing.

Though I will miss Brian Eno for the Dune Prophecy music. That was haunting

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 September 2020 - 08:01 AM

[Morgoth]

you can feel the absence of Jóhan Jóhannsson in that trailer too.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 10 September 2020 - 06:40 AM, said:

They changed Jihad to Crusade because Jihad has taken on an association in the west that did not exist when Herbert wrote it. Crusade is a more inherently negative term but that's not an issue here since this is the violent destructive kind of Jihad and not the spiritual struggle to which it also refers. But to most of the target audience using Jihad would have a specific anti-Western, Islamic religious violence connotation that would probably alienate people.

It is also entirely possible that Crusade was used for the trailer only and it will be Jihad in the movie proper? That kind of stuff happens frequently in marketing.

Zendaya also calls Paul, Paul instead of 'Usul' which is what Chani calls Paul throughout when in-sietch...which I feel may also be a trailer thing as opposed to in the movie?

Morgoth, on 10 September 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

you can feel the absence of Jóhan Jóhannsson in that trailer too.

You can, but Hans Zimmer feels that this may be his greatest score of his career, so I'm really excited to see what he gives us as he's one of my favourites.

[amphibian]

There's a very important distinction between crusade and jihad that's made in the books.

The crusades were a series of wars launched by the Christians to "free Jerusalem and surrounding areas from Islamic rule". The anti Islamic component was integral to those wars and they were on the whole awful endeavors conducted with racism and prejudice at the central core.

What the Fremen do with the Atreides prescience and leadership is much more similar to a jihad - a struggle begun as a war and conducted for the betterment of the ummah/community/humanity because of the return of the machines eventually. There's mega deaths in the billions, yes. But there wasn't an anti religious motivation to what the Fremen did. Leto II saves humanity by doing his weird ass path for thousands of years.

The difference is big and simply freeing Arrakis from a religiously motivated Corrino-controlled House rule isn't the point of what the Fremen do in the books. Shaddam had no religion. Neither do the Harkonnens.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 September 2020 - 02:59 PM

[QuickTidal]

100% agreed. Which is why I hope Jihad is intact in the actual movie and they don't use Crusade.

[stone monkey]

Morgoth, on 10 September 2020 - 06:15 AM, said:

Otherwise the trailer looks great, though I have to say I think the costumes look a little bland. Not quite the decadent space empire look I always envisioned. And the Fremen, I don't know, I had hoped for a little more Bedouins on a desert in space kind of style. Where's the personality they brought to their individual suits? It's not a big complaint, just a nitpick, but still.

Arguably one of the things the Lynch version got right, for the most part, was costuming - although the stillsuit in that version was basically the undersuit, which is worn under the fancy, heat-dissipating robes. But it's probably considered hard to sell that idea to a general audience without getting bogged down in exposition.

[amphibian]

Very strong thread on what Herbert was trying to accomplish with the jihad/layering of Middle Eastern identity within both the Fremen and their oppressors. https://twitter.com/...7392519168?s=19

That's why the crusade line matters and why I am hoping it's a trailer fuck up.

[Cause]

amphibian, on 10 September 2020 - 02:45 PM, said:

There's a very important distinction between crusade and jihad that's made in the books.

The crusades were a series of wars launched by the Christians to "free Jerusalem and surrounding areas from Islamic rule". The anti Islamic component was integral to those wars and they were on the whole awful endeavors conducted with racism and prejudice at the central core.

What the Fremen do with the Atreides prescience and leadership is much more similar to a jihad - a struggle begun as a war and conducted for the betterment of the ummah/community/humanity because of the return of the machines eventually. There's mega deaths in the billions, yes. But there wasn't an anti religious motivation to what the Fremen did. Leto II saves humanity by doing his weird ass path for thousands of years.

The difference is big and simply freeing Arrakis from a religiously motivated Corrino-controlled House rule isn't the point of what the Fremen do in the books. Shaddam had no religion. Neither do the Harkonnens.

What? Jihad is also a war against unbelievers and the firemen very much kill people because Paul is their messiah and people shouldn’t resist his will. The average firemen was not aware of the goodne paths goal or need

[Cause]

https://dune.fandom....27Dib%27s_Jihad

[EmperorMagus]

Cause, on 10 September 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

https://dune.fandom....27Dib%27s_Jihad

Jihad means "struggle". It can be physical or spiritual. It can be a war or in some other form.

I don't want to get into the argument re Muad'dib's Jihad here but characterizing the word as a "war against unbelievers" is incorrect.

[Cause]

EmperorMagus, on 10 September 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

Cause, on 10 September 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

https://dune.fandom....27Dib%27s_Jihad

Jihad means "struggle". It can be physical or spiritual. It can be a war or in some other form.

I don't want to get into the argument re Muad'dib's Jihad here but characterizing the word as a "war against unbelievers" is incorrect.

The word crusade doesn’t only mean wars to conquer Jerusalem either. Words and language are complex and change, especially when in use for centuries. Jihad might also mean spiritual struggle but it’s clesr that’s not what jihad in dune meant.

They read the origin bible, they think Paul is the messia, the call the worms shiatsn. Dune has many Islamic influences but they are no more real Muslims in space than the bene gesserit are real nuns.

[polishgenius]

EmperorMagus, on 10 September 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

Jihad means "struggle". It can be physical or spiritual. It can be a war or in some other form.

I don't want to get into the argument re Muad'dib's Jihad here but characterizing the word as a "war against unbelievers" is incorrect.

That might not be what it literally means but it's what it has come to be associated with in the minds of many people including what will be the primary target audience. While there is definitely a case that a big movie should take the chance to educate people on the true meaning, one where the Jihad in question is a war which costs billions of lives might not achieve that.

Meanwhile as Cause said Crusade's original meaning is very specific but it now has a colloquial meaning of 'any really strident struggle' and as such will be more likely to be a neutral term to most of the same primary target audience.


There's no perfect solution to this but I get why they changed it.

[Cyphon]

They could say crusade in the trailer and then jihad in the film, that way they don't risk putting people off until they're in the cinema.