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Artless Mafia 134.5 Altless M&P

#101 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM

View PostItwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

Khell's case makes the most sense to me but it's a case on a symp, it will move us absolutely nowhere if you're right Khell. I can see your points but I'm not entirely convinced Bliss is symp and with the first sentence in mind I would rather lynch based on different reasons.

Is your acting deliberately inspired by Venge's last town performance?

That was not fully the different reason I was talking about btw.

View PostAndorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:



I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make


Why would he not?


This is a type of post I would associate with a killer. No one knows, except for them of course, who the killers are. So from their perspective they are always in the right on thread and can say a case is shit because they know it is. I got my eye on you Nom as a possible Bliss partner if she comes up killer.

I will not label anyone symp unless there is a killer found and possible connections from deflection.

My play with my early game is to draw the night kill because the killers cannot be sure whether I am lying or telling the truth.
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#102 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Why is saying Bliss will CF RI so controversial? If I already before that said that I believe that she is a symp, then surely that follows???

I am voting for her because I think she is scum. Again, I'm not sure what is controversial about that. In fact, I find it quite odd that people are voicing confusion about this.

Would it help if I said Bliss is a killer? Well, I don't think her play so far suggests killer, but I do think it could suggest symp. That is still scum, and that is my reason for voting. I think she was entirely too eager to jump onto Tatts, for doing something we could all have seen Tatts doing.

Tell me who's a killer, and why, and I can be convinced to change my vote (unless you think it's me, obvs).


I don't think it's controversial, I was just highlighting a trigger. Your wording warrants attention and the order of your appearance has you looking like Tatts symp.

Also on principle you do tend to come off as trying to lead town.

I'm wary of that sort of play.



My wording, lol.

I am pointing out a possible option to town. Town is free to make their own decision. Leading would require me to say, "Hey, everyone, follow me!" In fact, I've advised caution by emphasising the nature of my suspicion.

As for the other part, I can only be Tatts' symp if you believe that a killer-roled Tatts would say such a thing as he did. Do you believe that?
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#103 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:17 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostItwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

Khell's case makes the most sense to me but it's a case on a symp, it will move us absolutely nowhere if you're right Khell. I can see your points but I'm not entirely convinced Bliss is symp and with the first sentence in mind I would rather lynch based on different reasons.

Is your acting deliberately inspired by Venge's last town performance?

That was not fully the different reason I was talking about btw.

View PostAndorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:



I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make


Why would he not?


This is a type of post I would associate with a killer. No one knows, except for them of course, who the killers are. So from their perspective they are always in the right on thread and can say a case is shit because they know it is. I got my eye on you Nom as a possible Bliss partner if she comes up killer.

I will not label anyone symp unless there is a killer found and possible connections from deflection.

My play with my early game is to draw the night kill because the killers cannot be sure whether I am lying or telling the truth.



Nom IS being very sensible. And in a way, killers would be the most sensible-sounding, seeing as they usually hold the most information/knowledge. So in that sense, I might get on board with this.
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#104 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:18 PM

View PostItwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I agree the Bliss's post seems off but I can quite understand it as an answer to Khell's stance. I don't really like Khell voting Bliss based on his symp case.

What I don't like about Andorion's speculation is it's covering Khell.



You see you are standing a little high on my scum radar at the moment Nom.

I like Sierg's analysis above. Just catching up.
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#105 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:21 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

View PostItwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I agree the Bliss's post seems off but I can quite understand it as an answer to Khell's stance. I don't really like Khell voting Bliss based on his symp case.

What I don't like about Andorion's speculation is it's covering Khell.



You see you are standing a little high on my scum radar at the moment Nom.

I like Sierg's analysis above. Just catching up.



This might be where we separate, Tatts. I'd currently put Sierg in the same broad category as Nom.
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#106 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:22 PM

View PostMacros, on 20 September 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

View PostItwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

Khell's case makes the most sense to me but it's a case on a symp, it will move us absolutely nowhere if you're right Khell. I can see your points but I'm not entirely convinced Bliss is symp and with the first sentence in mind I would rather lynch based on different reasons.

Is your acting deliberately inspired by Venge's last town performance?

That was not fully the different reason I was talking about btw.

View PostAndorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:



I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make


Why would he not?



This is the most sensible post so far, even if it does point out the pointlessness in currently voting for Bliss (boo!). Yes, I believe Bliss will CF RI (read: symp), which at this stage doesn't help us much (I mean, other than getting rid of a scum, but we wouldn't know for sure blah blah - well, I'll know for sure, because I'm sure, and all the rest of you have to do is trust me on that...what?).


This post bugs me on several levels (one being that I can follow the logic of it perfectly, but it's coming from Khell so.....)
Firstly, am not surprised your favourite post of the game so far is one that backs you up and agrees with one of your theories.
But mainly it's because of the bit where you say 'oh she'll probably cf ri'. I really hate when people play this card, if shesa symp, who is she symping? Let's vote them please. You go after the organ grinder, not the dancing monkey. It's just such a lazy way to dump off a day one vote and you can wash your hands come dawn and say, well I knew she was a symp anyway so yay me!! Now do as I say!!
Too controlling khell, I never liked thread railroaders, they're rarely up to any good.
I still would vote bliss but I'm slowly swinging away from it with khell dramatic conviction.
We have time (like 14 hours)
I want to hear a bit from our silent players and Andorion is still tickling my funny button for that PS not random nonsense (also tied up in that is itwasnoms immediate smack down of the theory, basically jumping to khells defence unnecessarily)


I fucking agree with this post. Fuck the labelling off. Until we get a scum CF then we won't know about symps and probably won't even then. Its rare a symp case works. I'd be happy voting Bliss but I think Nom would be the best option based on his current posts.
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#107 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:25 PM

View PostLady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

View PostSiergiej, on 20 September 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

X-posted, didn't see Nom's and Bliss' posts, sorry.

So, what do we have against Khell? He seems way too convinced that Bliss is a symp, which is odd, but I cannot say I'm not suspicious about LB.


My problem is that he says I'll cf RI but that is OK???? That leaves himself open to a day 2 shrug, and a comment that "it was what he expected".


Nom also said you were a symp. Which is good labelling you not scum. I think you could be a killer or being set up as one by Khell and Nom. Not sure.
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#108 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:27 PM

I havent read replies yet. Been the zoo today. Bit busy with baby now.

vote itwas nom

Too suspicious.
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#109 User is offline   Coltaine - 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:34 PM

Back and reading up
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#110 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:40 PM

Re: role assignment speculation I did not know about Mafia Manager Random assignments so my earlier post is totally baseless.

Other thoughts:

I like the Nom case. But also to be noted Macros has agreed with Khell multiple times after saying how he does not trust him. Disclaimers irk me.

Khell is being very sensible. He would have gotten more support in an alted game by now. And that seriously alarms me.
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#111 User is offline   Coltaine - 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 05:33 PM

Remove vote

A Nom-Bliss or Nom-Khell connection is an interesting idea. So I will vote maybe for one of them.

Tatts Guard post is still strange but I don't think that he is scum. He should know that strange posts/ideas at day one can get you killed very quickly. And for Ando ... well, I also didn't know about the random assingments.

I will check in later again.
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#112 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 05:49 PM

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:




My wording, lol.

I am pointing out a possible option to town. Town is free to make their own decision. Leading would require me to say, "Hey, everyone, follow me!" In fact, I've advised caution by emphasising the nature of my suspicion.


...

View PostKhellendros, on 19 September 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

No because she's being obvious, fake-symping me to save me for a later lynch when one of you guys would come on and say something like that. Luckily, I'm here to save you from yourselves. Come on, keep up!


I get the ego, you're good. But you're also posing as leader.

ergo "I know best, follow me".

It just doesn't inspire much trust from me. Follow-me's tend to be scum.

So yes, LOL, wording. I'm keeping my eye on the subtext.


View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:


As for the other part, I can only be Tatts' symp if you believe that a killer-roled Tatts would say such a thing as he did. Do you believe that?


Up until you said this we've argued but on this point I definitely agree. Killers would NOT normally do this.

I buy into Tatts' fishing strategy. Your segway to voting Lady Bliss is, by your own definition of symp play, what bothered me.
The timing felt funny. Grasping at straws it might be, but I like to listen to my instincts.

I can see past it and get behind a vote on Bliss only to see if there was merit to this fishing idea.

I can recognize the reward in that sort of risk.

VOTE BLISS
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#113 User is offline   Lady Bliss 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 06:23 PM

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 20 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:




My wording, lol.

I am pointing out a possible option to town. Town is free to make their own decision. Leading would require me to say, "Hey, everyone, follow me!" In fact, I've advised caution by emphasising the nature of my suspicion.


...

View PostKhellendros, on 19 September 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

No because she's being obvious, fake-symping me to save me for a later lynch when one of you guys would come on and say something like that. Luckily, I'm here to save you from yourselves. Come on, keep up!


I get the ego, you're good. But you're also posing as leader.

ergo "I know best, follow me".

It just doesn't inspire much trust from me. Follow-me's tend to be scum.

So yes, LOL, wording. I'm keeping my eye on the subtext.


View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:


As for the other part, I can only be Tatts' symp if you believe that a killer-roled Tatts would say such a thing as he did. Do you believe that?


Up until you said this we've argued but on this point I definitely agree. Killers would NOT normally do this.

I buy into Tatts' fishing strategy. Your segway to voting Lady Bliss is, by your own definition of symp play, what bothered me.
The timing felt funny. Grasping at straws it might be, but I like to listen to my instincts.

I can see past it and get behind a vote on Bliss only to see if there was merit to this fishing idea.

I can recognize the reward in that sort of risk.

VOTE BLISS


What IS the case on me? This feels very random. I'll also point out that if I were scum, there isn't anyone tap dancing up to my defense.
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#114 User is offline   Path-Shaper 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 07:13 PM

It is Day 1. 5 hours and 47 minutes remaining

13 Players still alive: Andorian, Blend, Coltaine, Dolmen2.0, HiddenOne, ItwasNom, JPK, Khellendros, Kotillion, Lady Bliss, Macros, SiergieJ, Tattersail

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

2 votes for Tattersail (Kotillion, Lady Bliss)
2 votes for Lady Bliss (Khellendros, Dolmen 2.0)
2 votes for ItwasNom (SiergieJ, Tattersail
1 vote for Khellendros (Blend)


Players not voted: Andorian, Coltaine, HiddenOne, ItwasNom, JPK, Macros
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#115 User is offline   Itwæs Nom 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 07:30 PM

I think Sierg's case on me is lazy. Besides, his behaviour seems to fit perfectly his behaviour when he was killer before, but that might be because that was the only game where I knew who he was (except for the newbie friendly unalted game) and it's his usual style. But you get +1 for not being lazy to spell my name right.

About Khell and Bliss, I think none of them is killer and one of them is quite possibly symp, I won't vote there unless there's no other option. I'm for keeping Tatt's alive today because I agree with what someone said earlier about doing scum's job. I don't really think Ando's "speculation" is scummy, I've seen him do something similar as an RI and I think he recieved very similar respond from Macros as today and he does seem to have tried to avoid further elaboration of the topic since the post. I'm not saying that's making him any more inno than others but just not outstandingly scummy.

I can see Tatt's reasoning since I'm criticizing every case but offering no alternatives but I think none of the killers is in highlight now.

Of the people's suspects I'd be most happy to vote Andorion because he's not in the highlight

Also Kots not knowing what to say could speak of him lacking the motivation to find the scum through day speculations
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#116 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 07:33 PM

Sorry again folks, this week is literally a crap shoot right now! I'm so busy at work that I haven't had the time to really read through this thread. Making an effort now, but the way this day has been going, I'm likely to get pulled away again before I'm even close to done.

remove vote

I was just voting Khell cause it's Khell, but I see that there are some other cases out there, so I'm gonna go check that shit out.
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#117 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 07:51 PM

View PostLady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 20 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:


I buy into Tatts' fishing strategy. Your segway to voting Lady Bliss is, by your own definition of symp play, what bothered me.
The timing felt funny. Grasping at straws it might be, but I like to listen to my instincts.

I can see past it and get behind a vote on Bliss only to see if there was merit to this fishing idea.

I can recognize the reward in that sort of risk.

VOTE BLISS


What IS the case on me? This feels very random. I'll also point out that if I were scum, there isn't anyone tap dancing up to my defense.


It's not random. Just simple.

Tatts said he was fishing, you bit. That's literally all there is to it.

My vote is on you in support of what might be a clever day 1 device.

Khell has kinda gone to great lengths in support of this sure, more so than I think made sense but the above is a starting point.

The vote helps us suss out whats what.
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#118 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 08:37 PM

As much as I understand and share the general sentiment towards keeping Khell alive for too long (ie beyond D1) I cannot see fault in his logic. Bliss, meanwhile, seems much more nervous, especially in these two posts:

View PostLady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

View PostSiergiej, on 20 September 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

X-posted, didn't see Nom's and Bliss' posts, sorry.

So, what do we have against Khell? He seems way too convinced that Bliss is a symp, which is odd, but I cannot say I'm not suspicious about LB.


My problem is that he says I'll cf RI but that is OK???? That leaves himself open to a day 2 shrug, and a comment that "it was what he expected".



View PostLady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 20 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

My wording, lol.

I am pointing out a possible option to town. Town is free to make their own decision. Leading would require me to say, "Hey, everyone, follow me!" In fact, I've advised caution by emphasising the nature of my suspicion.


...

View PostKhellendros, on 19 September 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

No because she's being obvious, fake-symping me to save me for a later lynch when one of you guys would come on and say something like that. Luckily, I'm here to save you from yourselves. Come on, keep up!


I get the ego, you're good. But you're also posing as leader.

ergo "I know best, follow me".

It just doesn't inspire much trust from me. Follow-me's tend to be scum.

So yes, LOL, wording. I'm keeping my eye on the subtext.


View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

As for the other part, I can only be Tatts' symp if you believe that a killer-roled Tatts would say such a thing as he did. Do you believe that?


Up until you said this we've argued but on this point I definitely agree. Killers would NOT normally do this.

I buy into Tatts' fishing strategy. Your segway to voting Lady Bliss is, by your own definition of symp play, what bothered me.
The timing felt funny. Grasping at straws it might be, but I like to listen to my instincts.

I can see past it and get behind a vote on Bliss only to see if there was merit to this fishing idea.

I can recognize the reward in that sort of risk.

VOTE BLISS


What IS the case on me? This feels very random. I'll also point out that if I were scum, there isn't anyone tap dancing up to my defense.


That's a bit too defensive for someone who's yet to gather more than 2 votes to their name on D1. Anyway, we have 3 people with 2 votes and time is running out. I still think Nom is the safest option for muddying the water, but I'm also okay with switching to Bliss. Reluctant to vote Khell because in the Khell/LB situation i find Bliss much more scummy.

I'm off to watch a movie, will be back briefly before EOD for the lynch if votes are needed.
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#119 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 08:44 PM

Alright, a few things that stand out to me, and I’m sure I’m not the first to notice them, but still…

View PostTattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I'm just a humble guard, hoping the museum will just, come to life of a night.


Others have definitely mentioned that it’s an odd slip by Tatts. That being said, I doubt it’s anything more than a poor choice of words on Tatts’ part. Even if it were deliberate, he’d be a symp at best, I’d say. Doesn’t make sense for a killer to draw attention to themselves in any deliberate way. If he IS a symp, best to keep him alive and keep an eye on him and what he does as it may point us at scum inadvertently.

The thing I don’t like about it is this:

View PostTattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Well I could be a guard. Even if I am not, it creates a safer place if there actually is a guard. Killers can leave me around at their own peril but town should definitely not lynch me. That would be all kinds of crazy!


Scum WOULD say that, no? I’m not saying we definitely SHOULD lynch Tatts, just that we shouldn’t take it for granted that he’s town… If Tatts IS a guard, he deserves to be lynched for such an obvious screw up. If he is a symp, best we keep him alive and watch his moves. If he’s a killer, he deserves to be lynched. That’s 2 out of 3 scenarios where Tatts should be lynched for that comment alone…

View PostAndorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make


Assumptions like the above are the kind of assumptions that lose games… However, this:

View PostAndorion, on 20 September 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

I would be very very hesitant about following Khell into a supposedly symp lynch this early.


Is true about any symp case made prior to potential D-Day. If we think we know who the symp is, best to keep him or her around to ensure that they can try to lead us in a merry circle. The more information they put on thread, the better chance we have to try to figure out who they are trying to distract us from, thus leading us to scum. That’s the theory anyway...

This post here:

View PostLady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Back and just finished a reread. This has to be the scummiest post so far:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This is the most sensible post so far, even if it does point out the pointlessness in currently voting for Bliss (boo!). Yes, I believe Bliss will CF RI (read: symp), which at this stage doesn't help us much (I mean, other than getting rid of a scum, but we wouldn't know for sure blah blah - well, I'll know for sure, because I'm sure, and all the rest of you have to do is trust me on that...what?).



Khell is certain I'll cf RI, and admits it won't help much but says you should vote for me anyway? Khell's declaration comes hard on the tail of Tatts gettimg to 3 votes. I'm tempted to keep my vote on Tatts for that reason, but I would consider switching to Khell.


Bugs me quite a bit. Lady B is being pretty disingenuous – she highlights the part of Khell’s message where he says he ‘believes’ that Bliss will CF as RI, then goes right on to say that ‘Khell is certain’ she’ll CF as RI. Blatant disregard for what she has JUST pointed out was actually said… Kind of weird methinks.

And then there are posts like this:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

But until I see something better, my vote remains.


This really grinds my gears. “Until I see something better” is a classic way for scum to seem non-threatening. ‘Listen guys, I know my case fucking sucks, but I don’t want to put more work into this, so I’m going to stick to my guns cause it looks less scummy if I don’t just hop around all willy nilly. So the onus is now on you to give me some reason to hop this train!’ Ick.

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Why is saying Bliss will CF RI so controversial? If I already before that said that I believe that she is a symp, then surely that follows???

I am voting for her because I think she is scum. Again, I'm not sure what is controversial about that. In fact, I find it quite odd that people are voicing confusion about this.


Come on Khell, really? You know as well as anyone on here that voting for a symp early in the game is not only a waste of time, but also a waste of information. If you truly believe that Lady B is a symp, you should be moving on to trying to figure out who she’s symping. A symp lynch gives us absolutely no information.

Of course, then we have the issue that a lot of the fluff around what Khell is saying absolutely makes sense. It’s just a few triggers here and there that really irk me, and Khell should know better.

Here’s another post that bugs me:

View PostTattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

My play with my early game is to draw the night kill because the killers cannot be sure whether I am lying or telling the truth.


That’s actually a smart thing to do early game if you’re not roled town. The fact that you’ve said that’s what you want to do is the reason I am suspicious of it. Now you’ve given the killers an excellent reason NOT to kill you. If they don’t, it leaves a giant soggy puddle of WIFOM for all of us to wade through. “Did they leave him alive so we’d think he was lying scum and should lynch him? Is he still alive because he’s scum and trying to be clever?”

Either way I believe that something like the above just warrants a lynch to prevent the amount of times we’ll have to go over this case again over the next couple of game days.

So yeah, after all that, I’d be comfortable with a Khell lynch, but I think I’d much prefer a Tatts lynch. I think the Bliss thing is just some misdirection by a clever Khell, so I’m not really interested in voting for her. None of the other cases made today have really stood out to me, though I’ll certainly be keeping an eye on a couple of people!


On that note...

vote Tatts
There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived. ~ Anomander Rake
My sig comes from a game in which I didn't heed Blend's advice. So maybe this time I should. ~ Khellendros
I'm just going to have to come to terms with the fact that self-vote suiciding will forever be referred to as "pulling a JPK" now, aren't I? ~ JPK
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Posted 20 September 2016 - 09:07 PM

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 20 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:




My wording, lol.

I am pointing out a possible option to town. Town is free to make their own decision. Leading would require me to say, "Hey, everyone, follow me!" In fact, I've advised caution by emphasising the nature of my suspicion.


...

View PostKhellendros, on 19 September 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

No because she's being obvious, fake-symping me to save me for a later lynch when one of you guys would come on and say something like that. Luckily, I'm here to save you from yourselves. Come on, keep up!


I get the ego, you're good. But you're also posing as leader.

ergo "I know best, follow me".

It just doesn't inspire much trust from me. Follow-me's tend to be scum.

So yes, LOL, wording. I'm keeping my eye on the subtext.




Whenever you see me say something like that, just imagine it tongue-in-cheek, as people don't follow or trust me too often (when they know it's me) ;) It's actually partly why I enjoy unalted games, though I don't tend to last long!
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
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