[Andorion]

Blend, on 20 September 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Alright, a few things that stand out to me, and I'm sure I'm not the first to notice them, but still…

Tattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I'm just a humble guard, hoping the museum will just, come to life of a night.

Others have definitely mentioned that it's an odd slip by Tatts. That being said, I doubt it's anything more than a poor choice of words on Tatts' part. Even if it were deliberate, he'd be a symp at best, I'd say. Doesn't make sense for a killer to draw attention to themselves in any deliberate way. If he IS a symp, best to keep him alive and keep an eye on him and what he does as it may point us at scum inadvertently.

The thing I don't like about it is this:

Tattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Well I could be a guard. Even if I am not, it creates a safer place if there actually is a guard. Killers can leave me around at their own peril but town should definitely not lynch me. That would be all kinds of crazy!

Scum WOULD say that, no? I'm not saying we definitely SHOULD lynch Tatts, just that we shouldn't take it for granted that he's town… If Tatts IS a guard, he deserves to be lynched for such an obvious screw up. If he is a symp, best we keep him alive and watch his moves. If he's a killer, he deserves to be lynched. That's 2 out of 3 scenarios where Tatts should be lynched for that comment alone…

Andorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make

Assumptions like the above are the kind of assumptions that lose games… However, this:

Andorion, on 20 September 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

I would be very very hesitant about following Khell into a supposedly symp lynch this early.

Is true about any symp case made prior to potential D-Day. If we think we know who the symp is, best to keep him or her around to ensure that they can try to lead us in a merry circle. The more information they put on thread, the better chance we have to try to figure out who they are trying to distract us from, thus leading us to scum. That's the theory anyway...

This post here:

Lady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Back and just finished a reread. This has to be the scummiest post so far:

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This is the most sensible post so far, even if it does point out the pointlessness in currently voting for Bliss (boo!). Yes, I believe Bliss will CF RI (read: symp), which at this stage doesn't help us much (I mean, other than getting rid of a scum, but we wouldn't know for sure blah blah - well, I'll know for sure, because I'm sure, and all the rest of you have to do is trust me on that...what?).

Khell is certain I'll cf RI, and admits it won't help much but says you should vote for me anyway? Khell's declaration comes hard on the tail of Tatts gettimg to 3 votes. I'm tempted to keep my vote on Tatts for that reason, but I would consider switching to Khell.

Bugs me quite a bit. Lady B is being pretty disingenuous – she highlights the part of Khell's message where he says he 'believes' that Bliss will CF as RI, then goes right on to say that 'Khell is certain' she'll CF as RI. Blatant disregard for what she has JUST pointed out was actually said… Kind of weird methinks.

And then there are posts like this:

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

But until I see something better, my vote remains.

This really grinds my gears. "Until I see something better" is a classic way for scum to seem non-threatening. 'Listen guys, I know my case fucking sucks, but I don't want to put more work into this, so I'm going to stick to my guns cause it looks less scummy if I don't just hop around all willy nilly. So the onus is now on you to give me some reason to hop this train!' Ick.

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Why is saying Bliss will CF RI so controversial? If I already before that said that I believe that she is a symp, then surely that follows???

I am voting for her because I think she is scum. Again, I'm not sure what is controversial about that. In fact, I find it quite odd that people are voicing confusion about this.

Come on Khell, really? You know as well as anyone on here that voting for a symp early in the game is not only a waste of time, but also a waste of information. If you truly believe that Lady B is a symp, you should be moving on to trying to figure out who she's symping. A symp lynch gives us absolutely no information.

Of course, then we have the issue that a lot of the fluff around what Khell is saying absolutely makes sense. It's just a few triggers here and there that really irk me, and Khell should know better.

Here's another post that bugs me:

Tattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

My play with my early game is to draw the night kill because the killers cannot be sure whether I am lying or telling the truth.

That's actually a smart thing to do early game if you're not roled town. The fact that you've said that's what you want to do is the reason I am suspicious of it. Now you've given the killers an excellent reason NOT to kill you. If they don't, it leaves a giant soggy puddle of WIFOM for all of us to wade through. "Did they leave him alive so we'd think he was lying scum and should lynch him? Is he still alive because he's scum and trying to be clever?"

Either way I believe that something like the above just warrants a lynch to prevent the amount of times we'll have to go over this case again over the next couple of game days.

So yeah, after all that, I'd be comfortable with a Khell lynch, but I think I'd much prefer a Tatts lynch. I think the Bliss thing is just some misdirection by a clever Khell, so I'm not really interested in voting for her. None of the other cases made today have really stood out to me, though I'll certainly be keeping an eye on a couple of people!


On that note...

vote Tatts

This is the post that turned the tide.

Just pointing out that Blend said:

1. We should lynch roled town on Day 1

2. He has lots of problems with Khell, but agree that what Khell is saying is sensible.

This is precisely what Macros is also doing - "Khell is suspicious as hell but he maybe right"

Both of them are getting some distancing in and then pivoting around to another target.

After Blend enlivened the thread on Tatts, Macros put him at L 1.

This sticks out at me. Its really quite bothersome

[Dolmen 2.0]

Siergiej, on 20 September 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

This is bullshit. Why are we lynching Tatts? He would be prime target for scum anyway, so why are we doing their job for them? I can already hear their sinister giggles as they make sure they placed the provisionals for 'If Tatts is lynched...'. What are the odds he's scum who opened his game with claiming Guard? Why would a killer ever play like that? Best case scenario Tatts could be a symp, but we won't know that anyway. Worst case, we lynch a Guard on D1. How does that help us?

Okay, deep breath, end of rant. I'm mad that we're wasting a lynch on Tatts but there's no one else on-thread right now and like what, 90 minutes until timeout? I will stick around for the next half an hour or so. If a miracle doesn't happen, I'll hammer before going to sleep.

Basically this.

After what Khell said about The Guard comment I thought Tatts was trying to draw fire, maybe get a Guard on himself.
Brave or stupid play but useful information-wise.

Did not expect a Lynch on him but I guess thats what happens when you take risks.

Quite a bit from blend After I went to bed, enough to swing the vote so yeah, Him and Bliss seem to come off a bit shady, as does Kottilion.

Siergiej Is a surprise to me. Dont know if its a distraction or maybe he put focus in the right place?

Will try reread the thread properly once I get to the Office.

[Macros]

Starting on a new site at the minute. Just got a quick catch up at breakfast. Of the train in tatts yesterday, I'm interested in lady B and probably blend as he was the catalyst for its momentum.
Of the others, still andorion. Hoping there's decent signal in the canteen at tea time

[Andorion]

Macros, on 21 September 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Starting on a new site at the minute. Just got a quick catch up at breakfast. Of the train in tatts yesterday, I'm interested in lady B and probably blend as he was the catalyst for its momentum.
Of the others, still andorion. Hoping there's decent signal in the canteen at tea time

Interested to know your thoughts on me now, as I have clarified my earlier comment regarding Khell and roles

[Macros]

Andorion, on 20 September 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

Re: role assignment speculation I did not know about Mafia Manager Random assignments so my earlier post is totally baseless.

Other thoughts:

I like the Nom case. But also to be noted Macros has agreed with Khell multiple times after saying how he does not trust him. Disclaimers irk me.

Khell is being very sensible. He would have gotten more support in an alted game by now. And that seriously alarms me.

This post? I assume you are referring to?
No, this doesn't make me feel any better abiut you, regardless if you knew about mafia manager or not, you were trying to suggest someone could or could not be a certain role because of who they were. Its Meta gaming and bullshit.
No one ever trusts khell, he's fucked us all over at some stage, however he is an extremely good player, so if he is town we're quids in, I'm just not overly enamoured with the idea of giving him my trust, see earlier and fucking people over.
He likes the idea of a bliss lynch, which I did, but I don't really agree with his reasoning, I fancy bliss for other reasons, as a possible killer, not as a symp. I hate people symp hunting as it's totally unprovable until post game.

[HiddenOne]

alright so I 'm already behind and we're down 2.

Is the mood leaning toward listening to Khell instead of lynching him? Isn't that odd

It can be hard to understand Tatts' playstyle.




I'll try some catch up in a while, I've got 2 proposals to prepare and about 8 invoices to submit on my desk, and a headache that Tylenol and coffee haven't been able to defeat.

[Lady Bliss]

Good morning. Reading up...

[Lady Bliss]

Itwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

After Blend's case something has come to my mind. And that is possible presence of healer, if there's one he's just as likely to target Tatts as scum would be, but I doubt scum will with the possibility.Vote TattsNow I can go to bed

Andorion, on 21 September 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Blend, on 20 September 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Alright, a few things that stand out to me, and I'm sure I'm not the first to notice them, but still…

Tattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I'm just a humble guard, hoping the museum will just, come to life of a night.

Others have definitely mentioned that it's an odd slip by Tatts. That being said, I doubt it's anything more than a poor choice of words on Tatts' part. Even if it were deliberate, he'd be a symp at best, I'd say. Doesn't make sense for a killer to draw attention to themselves in any deliberate way. If he IS a symp, best to keep him alive and keep an eye on him and what he does as it may point us at scum inadvertently. The thing I don't like about it is this:

Tattersail_, on 19 September 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Well I could be a guard. Even if I am not, it creates a safer place if there actually is a guard. Killers can leave me around at their own peril but town should definitely not lynch me. That would be all kinds of crazy!

Scum WOULD say that, no? I'm not saying we definitely SHOULD lynch Tatts, just that we shouldn't take it for granted that he's town… If Tatts IS a guard, he deserves to be lynched for such an obvious screw up. If he is a symp, best we keep him alive and watch his moves. If he's a killer, he deserves to be lynched. That's 2 out of 3 scenarios where Tatts should be lynched for that comment alone…

Andorion, on 20 September 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

I don't think Khell would be scum in altless, but that is never a safe assumption to make

Assumptions like the above are the kind of assumptions that lose games… However, this:

Andorion, on 20 September 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

I would be very very hesitant about following Khell into a supposedly symp lynch this early.

Is true about any symp case made prior to potential D-Day. If we think we know who the symp is, best to keep him or her around to ensure that they can try to lead us in a merry circle. The more information they put on thread, the better chance we have to try to figure out who they are trying to distract us from, thus leading us to scum. That's the theory anyway...This post here:

Lady Bliss, on 20 September 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Back and just finished a reread. This has to be the scummiest post so far:

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This is the most sensible post so far, even if it does point out the pointlessness in currently voting for Bliss (boo!). Yes, I believe Bliss will CF RI (read: symp), which at this stage doesn't help us much (I mean, other than getting rid of a scum, but we wouldn't know for sure blah blah - well, I'll know for sure, because I'm sure, and all the rest of you have to do is trust me on that...what?).

Khell is certain I'll cf RI, and admits it won't help much but says you should vote for me anyway? Khell's declaration comes hard on the tail of Tatts gettimg to 3 votes. I'm tempted to keep my vote on Tatts for that reason, but I would consider switching to Khell.

Bugs me quite a bit. Lady B is being pretty disingenuous – she highlights the part of Khell's message where he says he 'believes' that Bliss will CF as RI, then goes right on to say that 'Khell is certain' she'll CF as RI. Blatant disregard for what she has JUST pointed out was actually said… Kind of weird methinks.And then there are posts like this:

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

But until I see something better, my vote remains.

This really grinds my gears. "Until I see something better" is a classic way for scum to seem non-threatening. 'Listen guys, I know my case fucking sucks, but I don't want to put more work into this, so I'm going to stick to my guns cause it looks less scummy if I don't just hop around all willy nilly. So the onus is now on you to give me some reason to hop this train!' Ick.

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Why is saying Bliss will CF RI so controversial? If I already before that said that I believe that she is a symp, then surely that follows??? I am voting for her because I think she is scum. Again, I'm not sure what is controversial about that. In fact, I find it quite odd that people are voicing confusion about this.

Come on Khell, really? You know as well as anyone on here that voting for a symp early in the game is not only a waste of time, but also a waste of information. If you truly believe that Lady B is a symp, you should be moving on to trying to figure out who she's symping. A symp lynch gives us absolutely no information.Of course, then we have the issue that a lot of the fluff around what Khell is saying absolutely makes sense. It's just a few triggers here and there that really irk me, and Khell should know better.Here's another post that bugs me:

Tattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

My play with my early game is to draw the night kill because the killers cannot be sure whether I am lying or telling the truth.

That's actually a smart thing to do early game if you're not roled town. The fact that you've said that's what you want to do is the reason I am suspicious of it. Now you've given the killers an excellent reason NOT to kill you. If they don't, it leaves a giant soggy puddle of WIFOM for all of us to wade through. "Did they leave him alive so we'd think he was lying scum and should lynch him? Is he still alive because he's scum and trying to be clever?" Either way I believe that something like the above just warrants a lynch to prevent the amount of times we'll have to go over this case again over the next couple of game days.So yeah, after all that, I'd be comfortable with a Khell lynch, but I think I'd much prefer a Tatts lynch. I think the Bliss thing is just some misdirection by a clever Khell, so I'm not really interested in voting for her. None of the other cases made today have really stood out to me, though I'll certainly be keeping an eye on a couple of people!On that note...vote Tatts

This is the post that turned the tide. Just pointing out that Blend said:1. We should lynch roled town on Day 12. He has lots of problems with Khell, but agree that what Khell is saying is sensible. This is precisely what Macros is also doing - "Khell is suspicious as hell but he maybe right"Both of them are getting some distancing in and then pivoting around to another target. After Blend enlivened the thread on Tatts, Macros put him at L 1.This sticks out at me. Its really quite bothersome

Sorry, I'm on my phone, so I can't do any sexy quote fu. Ando, you say that Blend got the lynch moving, but Nom was that 4th vote that brought Tatts over the hump. (Quoted above). Blend at least gives a case and reason for his vote, but Nom does more of a drive by on his way to bed without so much as a "I agree with blend". I want to take a closer look at nom, but I still think Khell's play yesterday was scummy.

[Blend]

Alright, welcome to Day 2 folks!

Shame we lost Siergij, he was a voice of reason on thread.

Everyone's jumping on this idea that *I* was the catalyst for yesterday's lynch. That may be true insofar as my big post pointed out some serious issues with Tatts' play, however I stand by what I said. The whole guard thing was NOT good play, no matter what his role was. If he was trying to draw a kill, being blatant about it just encourages the killers NOT to do it in order to create more WIFOM. Lynching him was important so that we didn't spend days playing the "were we right or were we wrong" game.

If I was the catalyst, then it's because the FOUR people who followed me saw that my reasoning was sound.

Anyway, moving on...

Itwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

After Blend's case something has come to my mind. And that is possible presence of healer, if there's one he's just as likely to target Tatts as scum would be, but I doubt scum will with the possibility.

Town role speculation is never a good thing. I'm guilty of doing this in many games myself, and I always get called out on it, so I'm returning the favour. But seriously, though, let's leave the role speculation out of this and just try to find us some killers. Let them try to figure out what roles are in the game and then try to find them.

Tattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

I may as well leave my vote on most likely killer so far. After that I wouldnt know where to start. Without further information. I mean Blend and JPK have been below the radar and yet have two vital votes. How does that even work? Can they be totally sure on my cf?

'Two vital votes' - we were votes 3 and 5 - I mean, I don't really see how those two votes out of 7 were the 'vital ones.'

Macros, on 20 September 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

I would be more on board with lynching blissy, ando or now (yes based on others suspicions) nom. Going for another scan over this again and will be voting somewhere before bed

Maccy - I'm curious what your other suspicions are.

Macros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

And I'll likely be castigated for saying this, but Malazan mafia has an awful habit of chasing a failed lynch into day 2, and if this lynch stalls at -2/-1 I can envision how tomorrow will go so. So

No castigation from me - you're absolutely right.

Khellendros, on 20 September 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

I'm here too. I have much the same objections to a Tatts lynch as Sierg. And add to that that Bliss remains on the train and I am extra wary.

A random question: Why do people keep writing SiergieJ with a capital J at the end?

Yet again latching on to someone's else's argument...

Dolmen 2.0, on 21 September 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

After what Khell said about The Guard comment I thought Tatts was trying to draw fire, maybe get a Guard on himself.
Brave or stupid play but useful information-wise.

Tell me, how much information did we get from that stunt? Cause from where I'm standing, the answer is absolutely none.

HiddenOne, on 21 September 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Is the mood leaning toward listening to Khell instead of lynching him? Isn't that odd

THIS!!!

Lady Bliss, on 21 September 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Sorry, I'm on my phone, so I can't do any sexy quote fu. Ando, you say that Blend got the lynch moving, but Nom was that 4th vote that brought Tatts over the hump. (Quoted above). Blend at least gives a case and reason for his vote, but Nom does more of a drive by on his way to bed without so much as a "I agree with blend". I want to take a closer look at nom, but I still think Khell's play yesterday was scummy.

Thanks B - at least someone sees a bit of reality!


Anyway... I have to say that right now I'm leaning towards Khell for much the same things I pointed out in my big post yesterday. He's doing some things that strike me as odd for someone on the calibre of player that Khell is. As far as I'm concerned, anytime Khell is getting too creative, it's because he's hiding something important. If I had to make a bet right now, my money'd be on him being a killer.

[Andorion]

@Bliss, agree on Nom. Way too smooth. Combine with town role speculation as pointed out by Blend and I like him for a Day 2 vote

[Macros]

That's actually an interesting catch from Blend on Noms post regarding a healer, were I the type to shout SYMP! At people then that post would scream master directing. I must take a closer look at him when I get to the laptop this evening.

Blend, I said otherS reasoning, ie - the suspicion thrown at nom by other players.
Phone at work with poor signal, should be home by 6

[HoosierDaddy]

A pony walks into a bar and whispers his order.

The bartender says, "Why are you whispering?"

The pony says, "Because I'm a little hoarse."

[Blend]

HoosierDaddy, on 21 September 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

A pony walks into a bar and whispers his order.

The bartender says, "Why are you whispering?"

The pony says, "Because I'm a little hoarse."

vote HoosierDaddy

That was just bad.

[JPK]

Hey guys, working until 4 pacific time but I'll be lurking untill then.

So far I'm liking the case on Nom. He really skills know better than to speculate on Town Roles by now. It never helps town.

Khell's leadership yesterday has left me uneasy as well. Also don't forget that he was a killer in the first unalted m&p that Colt, Sierg, and I played so e can't rule out the possibility that he's be a killer in an unalted game (not that we ever should have). I've seen him in a couple of different roles now as well, and his play this game strikes me most of Khell the Killer.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 16 hours and 58 minutes remaining

11 Players still alive: Andorian, Blend, Coltaine, Dolmen2.0, HiddenOne, ItwasNom, JPK, Khellendros, Kotillion, Lady Bliss, Macros

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 vote for HoosierDaddy (Blend)


Players not voted: Andorian, Blend, Coltaine, Dolmen2.0, HiddenOne, ItwasNom, JPK, Khellendros, Kotillion, Lady Bliss, Macros

[Coltaine -]

Yeah, I remember that game very well. We ignored a good advise and paid for it.

Itwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

After Blend's case something has come to my mind. And that is possible presence of healer, if there's one he's just as likely to target Tatts as scum would be, but I doubt scum will with the possibility.

Vote Tatts

Now I can go to bed

Okay, everyone agrees that this post is fishy. Khell is still on my list (I learned from the first game) but currently Nom is number one.

Vote Itwas Nom

[Andorion]

Much as I would like to vote Khell most of the evidence points to Nom

vote itwaes nom

[Blend]

I assume the all-knowing PS knows that HD isn't actually a part of this game, but just in case...

remove vote

I'd like to hear from Nom before putting a vote down on him. Still plenty of time left in Day 2.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Well it's been a long day for me.

Had a good evening with the boss taking us out for supper. Now I'm home and comfortable.

Not much going on it seems. I'm not really feeling alot of the arguments about Nom.

One thing I do agree feels off.

Firstly:

Blend, on 21 September 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Dolmen 2.0, on 21 September 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

After what Khell said about The Guard comment I thought Tatts was trying to draw fire, maybe get a Guard on himself.
Brave or stupid play but useful information-wise.

Tell me, how much information did we get from that stunt? Cause from where I'm standing, the answer is absolutely none.

Not none but perhaps not useful right now. However look at it this way: If tatts claimed guard and actually is town then we have good info on Bliss and Khell.

Like I said before Khell had strong Follow-me posts. manipulative in a way. Bliss had blinkers on Tatts, she did'nt waver at all. now sure this isn't much to go on right this moment but as we watch them play and vote I think these first reactions will play a major part in which one we trust and which one we don't.

Check my logic if its off but often I found successful Day 1 lynch trains that CF RI need the most effort from scum. As the game progresses WIFOMISM smokescreen Town into bad or panicked choices.

DAY 1? its tough to get a convincing arguments going, they'd have to work for it. so again, looking at who pushed and why will be useful later.

Blend, on 21 September 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 20 September 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

After Blend's case something has come to my mind. And that is possible presence of healer, if there's one he's just as likely to target Tatts as scum would be, but I doubt scum will with the possibility.

Town role speculation is never a good thing. I'm guilty of doing this in many games myself, and I always get called out on it, so I'm returning the favour. But seriously, though, let's leave the role speculation out of this and just try to find us some killers. Let them try to figure out what roles are in the game and then try to find them.

Here I agree, this reason is not logical for Town and yet he doubled down and Voted on it then left for bed. That should have set off alarm bells for players on at the time. I agree it's weird to see votes pile on directly after Nom basicly said "Tatts might get kill healed, lynch him".

JPK's following vote was uncommitted follow up, so much so Tatts made a decent appeal.

Tattersail_, on 20 September 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

Vote me to get a lynch. Then look at why I was lynched. Shoddy reasoning by some. Goodnight.

I may as well leave my vote on most likely killer so far. After that I wouldnt know where to start. Without further information. I mean Blend and JPK have been below the radar and yet have two vital votes. How does that even work? Can they be totally sure on my cf?

Bad.

Maccy comes in with an even worse excuse than no excuse, saying one thing, doing another. I need to look into his play, I don't like his reason to Vote at all.

Sierg, Khell and Coltaine come on and all give reasons not to follow through on the Lynch train.

Ironically the person with the most insight into the situation Hammers the Vote.

I'm now leaning in favor of a Nom vote should it carry. Reasons from above are solid. Blend may have swung the Vote but he atleast did so playing to an argument.

The follow up votes were Bad. Noms by far the scummiest.

[Itwæs Nom]

I hesitated if I should post the reason or not, I decided to do so because it doesn't call for role discussion and killers surely were aware of possible presence of healer. Found it better option than voting without giving the reason or giving some empty reason saying nothing at all

Bad day, not in mood, will be back tommorow