[champ]

Gorefest, on 22 June 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

champ, on 22 June 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

This will probably be inaccurate knowing the debate we've had but last night in the TV debate, Boris Johnson stated that we've voted against EU regulations 80 times now and everyone has passed, that sounds good for our own interests doesn't it... though I take that with a pinch of salt but it is still an example of what we have pushed on us.

I would love to know what these things are, what they mean and what impact they will have but do we ever find out? Half the time it is done behind closed doors by unelected officials.

Britain has voted 'no' on regulations that ended up being passed between 56 and 72 times since 1996. During that same period they abstained 72 times and they voted 'yes' around 2500 times. So that means that only about 2% of regulations that the UK opposed were passed, 95% were approved, and 3% the UK didnt vote. It is all about how you use statistics. The 80 votes that Boris used arent only an exaggeration, they are also a tiny amount of the total regulations we voted on. We got our way 95% of the time. You lose some, you win lots. Just saying how many times you lost a vote doesn't give an honest picture of the facts.

Ah, I would have loved to have seen that answer last night as a smackdown to BJ! Nice post.

[Mentalist]

champ, on 22 June 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Werthead, on 22 June 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

[One message that did fail to get through in all of this is the one that Britain is overtaking France to become the second-largest economy in the EU and hence the second-most-powerful. And that, based on historic and current trends, Britain stands poised to jump over Germany to become the largest and most powerful economy in Europe in only about 12-14 years. If it stays in the EU. Remain has made a complete hash of communicating our current position in Europe which is probably the most favourable, most influential and most profitable it has ever been.

You know, Wert, that's probably the best argument I've heard from anyone, anywhere for Britain to remain in the EU. First time I've heard it put like this too and I've followed the coverage on this for months.

And that is the problem with the debate we've had...

For the Remain group, it's all about negativity, the dire consequences of leaving the EU, you listen to them and you'd think we're a little shitty country that has only ever had a prosperous time whilst we've been a member of the EU.

That alone makes me want to say fuck you to them, vote leave and we can then show them just what we can do.

What they should have done is informed us of the benefits of remaining in the EU, future plans of the EU, what we are achieving and what we hope to achieve whilst a member, long term goals etc etc rather than the doom and gloom.

Their campaign has "Epic Fail" written all over it.

As for the Leave campaign, we've had half assed answers and promises that seem wishful thinking at the minute with no informed explanation of what will happen if we vote to leave the EU but then again that is the problem, no one has any idea whatsoever what will happen.

The economy will take a hit no doubt and after that, it is anyones guess.

Look at the situation with the Euro, it was predicted we'd be ruined when we didn't sign up... well that was a lucky escape!

My vote is to leave...

It's a protest vote, I'm sick to death of politicians thinking they can walk over the thoughts and feelings of the public and do what they want and then BS about it. Our current crop of politicians at the top of the CON and LAB parties are a bunch of useless wankers IMO.

I want this vote to shit them up and realise things have got to change with current politics as this cannot continue.

No offence, but to an outside observer this sounds like utter tripe. You are not thinking abou the future, you are doing what you think is lashing out at "bad politicians"

The fact of the matter is, "good politicians" won't magically appear out of thin air because people are angry- and if they do, chances are you won't hear about them, because they won't get put on the media, which is owned by people interested interested not rocking the boat.

If you want change, then you need to start thinking about what kind of change, then find like-minded people, come up with a plan, and then get into power- you know, become the "crooked politicians" everyone always hates. Mind, they're hated with good reason- but 95% of people doing the bashing would tur down down job, "because it's it's dirty" or "too tedious". Well, then why expec honest people to go into it out of the goodnes of their hearts?

I can understand the pseudo-patriotic slogans. I can understand the "it's for the better future" hopeful rhetoric, flawed as it is. But I really don't understand the "everyone sucks, will always suck, and we without power will complain until they feel bad and start acting nice" protest voting. No, i'm sorry, they won't "repent" and nicer people won't spring up by magic. You either start shooting and hangi those you feel are crooks (welcome to terror), or you take the really borin and tedious path and try to chang how people think and act and make your own political force.

Or you go with the flow and look out for yo own/your family's best interests. That's totally legit too. As long as you actually know what you're getting out of the bargain

[worry]

Something about this reminds me of the American phenomenon of people complaining that we send money "overseas" when we could use it right here -- complaints virtually always made by people (and people who vote for people) who never saw a domestic social program they didn't want to immediately defund to death.

[Macros]

[Khellendros]

champ, on 22 June 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

I would love to know what these things are, what they mean and what impact they will have but do we ever find out? Half the time it is done behind closed doors by unelected officials.

Regulations are voted on by representatives that we the people of the European Union elect, same as laws are voted on in our Parliament. We elect MEPs same way we elect MPs, the only difference is that hardly anyone bothers to turn out to vote for it.

But at the same time, yes, lots of things are decided behind closed doors. But again, that's how it works in our government too, most things are decided and carried out without being put to a vote. Perhaps even more so. After all, the EU has some 50,000 civil servants, the UK Government has 400,000...

[Morgoth]

Not to mention that the UK also has the House of Lords.

I never really understood the claim that the EU is undemocratic, but maybe they're referring to how it's all run by David Icke's Lizard People.

[Mezla PigDog]

My profession relies on the EU medical device regulations. They are big dull documents that dictate a bunch of rules that all medical devices and medical tests sold in the EU must conform too. About 5% of the content is a bit silly, something insisted on by one member state with a bee in their bonnet about an inconsequential matter. The other 95% of the content is really bloody sensible and keeps EU citizens safe. The EU method of regulation of these devices is a lot quicker than the US version and once a product is allowed on thr market in the EU a lot of other parts of the world use it as justification for allowing it to be sold within their borders - Africa, Australia, Saudi and a bunch of South East Asian countries. The Regulations are beinf rewritten at the moment and the EU commission has consulted widely with the industry, doctors and patient groups about the content. It's taken ages and is tedious and beurocratic but it is almost finished and again about 95% of the text is really sensible and makes me feel safer as a patient within the borders of the EU.

If we vote Out today the impact on the medical devices sold in the UK will be serious. Either the government will opt in to stay part of that regulation and allow free trade of these devices within the UK borders according to EU regulations or we will have to come up with our own rules. Manufacturers will then apply to sell into the UK more slowly as they'll have to jump through more hoops for a relatively small market. That means less access to cutting edge healthcare products. Of course an independent government could impose more loose regulations to allow products in faster but that means more dead patients.

So I have in depth knowledge of 2 EU regulations and the multi billion £££ industry that relies on them. Before I did this job I knew about 0. I can't help but wonder how many other sensible ones there must be out there in a whole host of other industries. All we hear about in the UK is straight bananas.

I'm voting In, big time. Practicalities aside it's just nice to be neighbourly and work with people.

[Morgoth]

Straight bananas being one of those myths, too.

I think the UK, if deciding to leave, will experience a rude awakening when it comes to trade. I know most members of the EU have no understanding of what it is like to be outside of the union. How much one takes for granted. The at times absurd effort it takes to transporting a crate of goods across the border to another country for instance. Inside the EU one encounters none of that, which is why so many EU companies suffer serious setbacks trying to do business in Norway. Oh, you thought you could just drive across the border with your service car full of tools you say? You imagined you'd be able to just bring your work vehicles to that dig site you won a contract on, did you? All this computer equipment you're bringing to that project in Oslo, you thought that was free to bring across the border, huh?

[Tapper]

Morgoth, on 23 June 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Straight bananas being one of those myths, too.

I think the UK, if deciding to leave, will experience a rude awakening when it comes to trade. I know most members of the EU have no understanding of what it is like to be outside of the union. How much one takes for granted. The at times absurd effort it takes to transporting a crate of goods across the border to another country for instance. Inside the EU one encounters none of that, which is why so many EU companies suffer serious setbacks trying to do business in Norway. Oh, you thought you could just drive across the border with your service car full of tools you say? You imagined you'd be able to just bring your work vehicles to that dig site you won a contract on, did you? All this computer equipment you're bringing to that project in Oslo, you thought that was free to bring across the border, huh?

Actually, it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of control UKIP (and continental anti-immigration parties like Front National) dream about imposing on others. That it might affect their own economy, might not hit home, or is seen as still coming out ahead - or their voters don't think they'll personally be in that position themselves (probably not even keeping their holidays in mind).

[Maark Abbott]

Don't leave me on an island with the Tories in charge and answerable to none. Just... don't.

I voted remain. The leave campaign weren't able to posit anything solid, and there were insufficient reasons to leave. The only interest it serves is the very high-end corporate one. The working class are going to get fisted either way, so it's a case of 'this side's wrist is smaller' for me.

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on 23 June 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 June 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Straight bananas being one of those myths, too.

I think the UK, if deciding to leave, will experience a rude awakening when it comes to trade. I know most members of the EU have no understanding of what it is like to be outside of the union. How much one takes for granted. The at times absurd effort it takes to transporting a crate of goods across the border to another country for instance. Inside the EU one encounters none of that, which is why so many EU companies suffer serious setbacks trying to do business in Norway. Oh, you thought you could just drive across the border with your service car full of tools you say? You imagined you'd be able to just bring your work vehicles to that dig site you won a contract on, did you? All this computer equipment you're bringing to that project in Oslo, you thought that was free to bring across the border, huh?

Actually, it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of control UKIP (and continental anti-immigration parties like Front National) dream about imposing on others. That it might affect their own economy, might not hit home, or is seen as still coming out ahead - or their voters don't think they'll personally be in that position themselves (probably not even keeping their holidays in mind).

Yeah, but as you say what they fail to consider is that it goes both ways. Leaving the EU will make it very very difficult for the UK's service industry to continue to compete in the EU, their main market by far. Not to mention all the products shipped to the EU, all the banking, the consulting, the investing and so on and so forth. Shit, the City of London may finally be blacklisted as a tax haven like it should have been decades ago.

[Tiste Simeon]

YouGov on-the-day poll has Remain winning 52-48%

https://yougov.co.uk...ougov-day-poll/

[Gorefest]

First results would suggest those polls are a bit out, though. Leave may have done a lot better than expected, based on the Newcastle results...

[Gorefest]

Leave are looking a lot stronger than anticipated. The Pound is plunging and we may wake up to a new reality here....

[amphibian]

From an outsider's view, it's fascinating to see a man vote the other way from his wife and close family/friends.

Usually, that's a rare phenomenon.

[amphibian]

I'm speaking in regards to Tattersail, who uh has "reasons" for doing that.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Coonass, on 24 June 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

My UK knowledge is basically 0. What's a Torie?

in britain (as most commonwealth nation for that matter), a torie is memeber of the country's conservative party.

[amphibian]

Another thought: I know a man who will probably vote for Trump come November because he's so financially secure that he could easily ride it a collapse of the economy - which is his estimation of what a Trump presidency would do. The way he spoke of things is very similar to how Tattersail spoke of his reasoning - has house, good job, stable, doesn't need to worry much.

It's a way people think and I speculate that it's a bit more common than pundits acknowledge.

[Messremb]

Holy shit this is close

[Gorefest]

Bloody tired and need to go to work in a few hours but I cannot tear myself away from the BBC live stream. Leave now said to be the favourite....