[Werthead]

Terez, on 11 May 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

I believe this was more or less settled when AMOL became 3 books instead of 1.

I think Tom Doherty also took a look at the eleventy kajillion dollars WoT (and all the books Harriet had edited) had made for Tor and said, "Ehhhh, nevermind"

[Terez]

Yeah, there was definitely some of that, not to mention the extenuating circumstances, but Harriet being Harriet, she felt bad about it and wanted to do what she could to fulfill the contract.

[Cause]

Tsundoku, on 01 May 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

heh, been reading the reddit:

https://www.reddit.c..._tv_adaptation/

@BK
I have shamelessly lifted this from the "wasn't it rape?" reddit at

https://www.reddit.c...5g/rape_in_wot/
A Crown of Swords, Chapter 28, Bread and Cheese
"Of course you’re not a cat," Tylin said. "You’re a succulent little duckling, is what you are."
Mat gave a start and stared. Duckling? And a little duckling, at that! The woman stood well short of his shoulder. Indignation or no indignation, he managed an elegant bow anyway. She was the Queen; he had to remember that. "Majesty, thank you for these wonderful apartments. I’d love to talk with you, but I have to go out and -"
Smiling, she advanced across the red-and-green floor tiles, layered blue and white silk petticoats swishing, large dark eyes fixed on him. He had no desire at all to look at the marriage knife nestled in her generous cleavage. Or the larger, gem-studded dagger thrust behind an equally gem-studded belt. He backed away.
"Majesty, I have an important -"
She started humming. He recognized the tune; he had hummed it to a few girls lately. He was wise enough not to try actually singing with his voice, and besides, the words they used in Ebou Dar would have singed his ears. Around here, they called it "I Will Steal Your Breath with Kisses."
Laughing nervously, he tried to put a lapis-inlaid table between them, but she somehow got around it first without seeming to increase her speed. "Majesty, I -"
She laid a hand flat on his chest, back-heeled him into a high-backed chair, and plumped herself down on his lap. Between her and the chair arms, he was trapped. Oh, he could have picked her up and set her on her feet quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as acceptable to her as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise. He could have picked her up easily, except...
He had seen fishmongers in the city selling peculiar creatures called squid and octopus - Ebou Dari actually ate the things! - but they had nothing on Tylin. The woman possessed ten hands. He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses, he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown, and she chortled. He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that.
"What she does not know cannot harm her," she murmured, her twenty hands not slowing for an instant.
Someone knocked at the door.
and again
A Crown of Swords, Chapter 28, Festival of Birds
It was too much. The woman hounded him, tried to starve him; now she locked them in together like... like he did not know what. Lambkin! Those bloody dice were bouncing around in his skull. Besides, he had important business to see to. The dice had never had anything to do with finding something, but... He reached her in two long strides, seized her arm, and began fumbling in her belt for the keys. "I don’t have bloody time for -" His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.
"Remove your hand," she said coldly. He managed to look down his nose at her face. She was not smiling now. He let go of her arm carefully. She did not lessen the pressure of her blade, though. She shook her head. "Tsk, tsk. I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you wish to play roughly... Hands at your sides. Move." The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backward on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.
"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic. "Majesty? Tylin?" Well, maybe he was in a bit of a panic, to use her name. You could call any woman in Ebou Dar "duckling" or "pudding" all day, and she would smile, but use her name before she said you could, and you found a hotter reception than you would for goosing a strange woman on the street anywhere else. A few kisses exchanged were never enough for permission, either.
Tylin did not answer, only kept him tiptoeing backward, until suddenly his shoulders bumped against something that stopped him. With that flaming dagger never easing a hair, he could not move his head, but eyes that had been focused on her face darted. They were in the bedchamber, a flower-carved red bedpost hard between his shoulder blades. Why would she bring him...? His face was suddenly as crimson as the bedpost. No. She could not mean to... It was not decent! It was not possible!
"You can’t do this to me," he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.
"Watch and learn, my kitten," Tylin said, and drew her marriage knife.

Again, think of this in reverse and the scene becomes very very disturbing

And as we have been told repeatedly these days, playing "hard to get" should be basically interpreted as "No".

http://keepmesafe.or...rs-417x1024.jpg

Bit Necro

This part of the books is scary. On my first read I never once considered it rape. Just odd. I often thought it would be nice to be hounded by a beautiful women. Then I read a thread about it, reread the chapters and it is rape! RJ didn't mean it to be but it is. I never read it as rape as first but it is. Without meaning to RJ wrote an incredibly powerful piece of literature that does a lot to shine a light on gender discrimination, feminism, rape and a hundred other topics in just these few chapters. Which is sad because the fact that it goes under so many peoples radars is what makes it so powerful, that and his real attempts with Aes Sedai and Ebou dar etc fell flat.

[Terez]

A paraphrased signing report from the ACOS book tour:

Quote

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.

So I wouldn't say it was unintentional at all.

[Macros]

Given that RJ wrote it as a humorous piece I would say it was entirely unintentional, it was his editor who picked up what it could really mean to the wider world.

[Terez]

The humorous approach is kind of necessary if it's going to be a conversation-starter rather than an obvious rape scenario.

[Cause]

Terez, on 29 April 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

There are a thousand ways to juggle this, but my preference is 7 or 8, either being about 13 episodes per season (which is barely realistic, nevermind the numbers in the 20s being thrown out there). I would of course prefer 8 because I think TEOTW should optimally take up almost an entire season, with the first several chapters of TGH tacked on at the end in the last episode, but that would definitely make for 8 seasons. (And it would require chronology/continuity juggling to make the Darkfriend Social work as a season opener for season 2.)

1: TEOTW+
2: TGH+TDR
3: TSR+TFOH
4: TFOH+LOC+bits of ACOS (especially overlap in the ACOS prologue) but this season is mostly LOC, the longest book in the series.
5: ACOS+TPOD+bits of WH (especially Elayne)
6: WH+COT (with bits of TPOD and maybe even KOD, ending with the Cleansing--357 pages of COT happened before the Cleansing)
7: KOD+TGS
8: TOM+AMOL

I think season 3 (in this scenario) should end with the TFOH climaxes rather than Alcair Dal, which could happen basically 3 episodes before the Battle of Cairhien. Then you end with Rand vs Rahvin which is a better season climax, partly because it ties in the girls' plotline so well, but there are a hundred little details about this point in the story that make for an amazing season ending, so much better than Alcair Dal, even considering the Asmodean battle. But Rand's entire TFOH plotline could happen in 3 episodes; Alcair Dal is a good midseason event, with the Rhuidean stuff happening around episode 4 (of 13). And Asmodean becomes basically a single-season character.

The buildup with the beginning of the Black Tower to Dumai's Wells could then take a whole season, as it should. One possibility to make this work smoothly is to have Nynaeve capture Moghedien before they reach Salidar, so all the Salidar stuff in TFOH could happen in season 4, and the capture before the end of season 3. I would prefer it if they caught her on the ship than in Tanchico where they first faced off—Nynaeve letting her get away once is good—so the Tanchico climax would have to come at least 2-3 episodes before Rahvin. Anyway, Rand's Black Tower to Dumai's Wells plotline would then be fully parallel to the Salidar to Egwene-as-Amyrlin plot.

The trickiest season in this scenario is 5, because the climaxes are the Bowl of the Winds and Rand killing Sammael. The girls would have to get the Bowl mid-season and use it at the end. I think optimally season 6 (ending with the Cleansing) should begin with Rand's campaign against the Seanchan, with him visiting Far Madding in the final episodes. In the books, he's basically in Far Madding for a whole book. But this way, Rand's whole plot with the Darkfriend Asha'man (Torval, Gedwyn, Kisman, and Dashiva) begins and ends in the same season (though the beginnings of it are before, during, and after Dumai's Wells).

I have not actually put the work into planning this properly; I thought about it recently but blew it off because it's honestly a lot of work for something that's not going to be used by anyone. But if Jason is really on this, I might take the gamble; I am not after a job or a credit but I want this to be done well and I'd hope he is open to suggestions about how to make it work without unnecessary sacrifices.

Definitely needs to be some serious compression. In fact I would argue what the wheel of time needs more than anything is a someone with a fierce will and a sharp knife to cut out every piece of plot that did not advance the core story! It wont be true to the books but I think it would make the better TV adaption for it! I would argue for full seasons for the early books and a seriously brutal edit of the later books. I wont begin to compare my knowledge or love of the series against yours but I would also mention that the typical viewer wont be your match as a fan either. A lot of WoT needs to go to streamline the story, not only to improve the story but to work it for the small screen.

The Eye of the World and The Great Hunt could very well be full seasons in themselves. They set up the world and characters very well and advanced the plot in significant and meaningful ways (Though I admit my Bias that book 2 is perhaps my favourite). I would argue that almost the entirety of the Dragon reborn could be cut. The whole stone of tear prophecy could be axed. Calandor would need to be retained but I think calandor is one of those things should be seriously reworked. The most important tool in the entire series is picked up in book 3 and not used again except for 5 minutes in the middle and than again in the end. I would argue that for a TV series without hundred of pages of exposition that wont work. When in season 8 this thing from season 2/3 is picked up again people wont even remember it or see it as Deus ex Machina. Calandor might be better saved for later in the shows run in fact. A few tweaks to the Great Hunt or use of an altered prophecy and we can still get lead to the Aiel.

It will hurt like hell for any fan to rip away huge chunks of the story but I honestly believe (just my own opinion of course) that it would make the story stronger. The number of forsaken should be reduced or have the roles of two or more of them rolled up into one character. The worst offender is Demandred! The most interesting character of the forsaken, with possibly one of the few legitimate grievances against the dragon and he pops out of nowhere in the last book in charge of the strongest army! Either his whole plotline must be reworked or more detail given to shara. Actually Id argue the best thing to do would be to make Taim Demandred after all.

Perrin-Faile-Berelain-Cut out Berleain or resolve this threesome early. Or he needs to actually be tempted, otherwise this story thread never had tension.

Damane- I would say that the TV show would need to end on a happier note than books.

Rand-Avienda-Elayne-Min- This whole thing is a discussion in and of itself. They all love him, but their duties mean they are never together. without access to inner PoVs we will never see this realtionship or how odd it is. In the books Rand is practically never with any of them but Min

Flashbacks - I think for the fans these would be the most exiting parts! At some point the hall of servants debate that split the men and women should definitely be covered.

Metaphysics - Should be clearer and less confused. Wont be hundreds of pages to pour over and debate. One in particular that stands out is if Ishmael was actually Rands dark counterpart (the anti-dragon) or just mad. I believe the latter is the case. This whole thing just distracted from the idea that Rand is the key to iether side winning

This is so exciting. Could argue a million other things!

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

A paraphrased signing report from the ACOS book tour:

Quote

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.

So I wouldn't say it was unintentional at all.

I would argue this is him changing his tune later. Im sure (although you would know better) that he flat out mentioned he did not mean it to be rape? In his mind Mat was resisting but would eventually be won over, and by the later chapters I think he was. That does not make it a wierd courtship. It makes it rape followed by cognitive dissonance.

This post has been edited by Cause: 12 May 2016 - 02:29 PM

[Terez]

The outline that I gave is seriously streamlined. And everyone has different opinions about what plotlines should be axed, what details should be changed. That's why adaptations usually suck.

PS: I'm with you on Taimandred. But not the damane. RJ never intended to resolve the Seanchan slavery issue; it was his way of showing that such cultural and institutional fixtures can't be erased overnight.

This post has been edited by Terez: 12 May 2016 - 02:37 PM

[Cause]

I think we can all agree that the wheel of time had the potential to be so much greater than it already is, which is saying something. The biggest flaw was RJs inability to advance the plot meaningfully later on. We might not all agree on what should be cut but I reckon we can all agree on what should definitely be kept. The things that don't fall into the latter category should all be seriously considered for the Axe.

The Eye of the World -Introduce; the main characters, the fear of male channellers, the prophecy, the dark one, the quest, Padan fain and mashidar! Rand can channel! Even I cant believe I am saying this but is Min necessary? Cut out Whitecloaks?

The Great Hunt - Rand is definitely the Dragon, Damane, Seanchan, the horn, Lanfear (her role should be expanded for tv), Aiel for the first time! Black Ajah, Verin. Egwene, Elayne side plot.

The Dragon Reborn - Calandor. Anything else? this book is a prime candidate to have its every detail moved into more important book plots. Its forsaken is a blip. Heal mat in the Great Hunt etc. Modify Egwene, Elayne side plot

The Shadow Rising - Prophecy, rhuidean, Aviendah, Chief of Chiefs, Lanfear, History of the world through his ancestors eyes. Rand is Adopted (his resistance to being the dragon crumbles). Is Asmodean critical? Could even put callandor in rhuidean! Modify Perrins plot, maybe dont have gim go home to Two rivers and stay with the group, otherwise he dissapears for a book. can fight off slayer in rhuidean maybe?

The fires of Heaven - Prime candidate to have plot points moved/erased/Accelerated. Fight the Shaido in the waste instead of cairhein maybe? Defeat Rahvin in a surgical strike in a different chronology in a different book? Put this all in the Shadow Rising! Have the strike on Rahvin be before Rhuidean! Have the fight with Shaido after.

RE Damane

It never sat well with me that Rand or Egwene could propose and/or accept the dragons peace while allowing the Seanchan to enslave channelers. At the least their would have been demands to have the non seanchan damane returned perhaps. In fact I would argue the whole Dragon Seanchan thing could get some extra love. Their altered prophecies etc. We did see a future in which the Damane eventually get freed and channelers get respect again, but that some future saw the Aiel wipedout along with the whole of the Eastern nations. Rand changed that future. Did RJ ever plan sequels? I seem to recall perhaps a new series set in seanchan?

This post has been edited by Cause: 12 May 2016 - 02:57 PM

[Werthead]

Quote

Definitely needs to be some serious compression. In fact I would argue what the wheel of time needs more than anything is a someone with a fierce will and a sharp knife to cut out every piece of plot that did not advance the core story! It wont be true to the books but I think it would make the better TV adaption for it! I would argue for full seasons for the early books and a seriously brutal edit of the later books. I wont begin to compare my knowledge or love of the series against yours but I would also mention that the typical viewer wont be your match as a fan either. A lot of WoT needs to go to streamline the story, not only to improve the story but to work it for the small screen.

The outlines advanced by me and Terez (and others) all do have some compression, just differing in the amounts. However, I think there is a key point at which you pull out so much stuff that it's not worth adapting any more. I think you can either lose or seriously compress the Shaido, for example, but eliminating the Seanchan altogether (advocated by many, many people) removes a very important point that Jordan wanted to make about differing cultural institutions and also showing how magic users can be turned into an oppressed minority.

[QuickTidal]

Let's not pretend that the Seanchan aren't a bastardized, mixed-up-in-a-bowl Asian stereotype filtered into fantasy, up to and including their name.

Just like TarValon has a very distinctive topdown geographical view, and Rand has a harem of women who want his ass...stuff can and should be dropped/changed for the general TV-watching masses.

If the Seanchan are still involved in the show, I very seriously doubt they will be as blatant a stereotype as I saw them to be in the books.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 May 2016 - 04:49 PM

[Terez]

Some of you seem to want a Legend of the Seeker type "adaptation". In which case I'd have to agree with Wert—what would be the point?

If your only complaint about the Seanchan is that they're stereotypically derivative, I have to wonder how you enjoy reading fantasy at all.

Cause thinks TDR is the most cuttable book out of all the early books. But TDR is a lot of fans' favorite book. Some of you might be familiar with Erica Sadun, a programmer who blogs on the subject and who has published a few books. She was part of the early online fandom at Usenet. She let me interview her regarding some of her signing reports and general early fandom stuff, and I learned that she thinks TDR is the pinnacle of the series and that RJ lost his way starting with books 4-6. Today, books 4-6 are the most universally popular books of the series.

Of all the things to cut...the Stone of Tear? Rand's harem? I mean, I get the complaints about the latter but without that you have a virtually unrecognizable story. What is the point? If you're trying to capitalize on a popular series, the safest route is to do your best to stick to the story that millions of fans fell in love with, because they all love it for different reasons, and once you start cutting based on what you liked and didn't like, you get into dangerous territory. I'm sure the "Legend of the Seeker" folks thought they were making a better story, but we see how that turned out.

What kind of logistical sense does it make to have the Shaido fight Rand's Aiel in the Waste instead of at Cairhien? As it is, RJ kills several birds with one stone—the Cairhien stage—and that's the best kind of plot logistics one could hope for in an adaptation. It's exactly the kind of scenario you try to create where it doesn't exist in the books.

I agree with the principle that the early books should be cut less than later books. But I think making TEOTW a full season, with one TGH episode tacked on to the end, and then consolidating the rest of TGH and TDR into one season is the best that can be hoped for. Ideally, I think it would be better to deemphasize the ending of TEOTW and make the TGH and TDR endings the first two seasons; TEOTW is definitely the weakest ending of the three. But logistically, that would be very difficult to pull off well. And TEOTW's ending isn't entirely unsalvageable; the adaptation provides the opportunity to make RJ's retcons work.

I'll be honest, my knowledge of the series is only part of why I think I could plot a top-notch adaptation. Big-picture organization is my thing; it's part of why I was able to absorb the details in this series so well in the first place. It's a bunch of moving parts that work together.

As I said earlier, the main problem with books 7-11 is structure. RJ was in bad health and had to cut back on his writing time, so he wasn't able to finish his book outlines. He had to put out a book at some point, and it was always well before he wanted to put out a book. That means the story wasn't as tight as it would have been if, for example, he'd gotten to the actual use of the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACOS, and if he's finished the next book with the Cleansing. You can be pretty sure that's roughly what his plan was after he finished Lord of Chaos. Basically all of the ACOS prologue was alternate POVs from Dumai's Wells, and stuff that happened around the same time. A lot of the story in books 9-11 especially would have been pared and tightened if he'd met his outline goals, but since he had to put out a book, the word count of each book was inflated.

[End of Disc One]

Quote

Some of you seem to want a Legend of the Seeker type "adaptation". In which case I'd have to agree with Wert—what would be the point?

Egwene sounds hot and I want to see what she looks like in real life

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Some of you seem to want a Legend of the Seeker type "adaptation". In which case I'd have to agree with Wert—what would be the point?

First, why does changing the story or plot points, or dropping stuff in favor of a more straightforward narrative...automatically mean Legend of the Seeker? I know you're a massive WOT fan, but maybe let's not bust out the hyperbole? Just because it would be modified in TV form doesn't automatically mean it's going to be some horrible abomination.

You talk a lot about "the fans"...but actual WOT fans would make up a tiny, tiny portion of the demographic a TV show would seek out in ratings world. And I'll be blunt...the people who bought this likely care VERY little about WOT fans. Hollywood man, it is what it is. Your "the series millions of fans fell in love with" is (though a large number) but a drop in the bucket for the amount of people this show has to court to stay solvent and popular.

Let's use SHANNARA as an example. The fans are largely either "meh" on the TV show, or they are outright bothered or angry about it as an adaptation. But casual TV viewers who never read the books and have no idea who Terry Brooks is? They seem to LOVE it as far as I can tell.

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

If your only complaint about the Seanchan is that they're stereotypically derivative, I have to wonder how you enjoy reading fantasy at all.

When it's as blatant as the Seanchan...I notice. And being critical of an author's choices is what makes us readers/audience, and it certainly doesn't somehow mean that I can't enjoy reading fantasy with derivative settings or ideas. It means that with the Seanchan it pulled me needlessly out of the story over and over again.

EDIT to add: Serious query Terez, do you honestly think that Rand's harem flies with casual TV audiences in 2016? I can actually visualize the social media shitstorm that would wash across the internet right now.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 May 2016 - 08:05 PM

[Cause]

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Some of you seem to want a Legend of the Seeker type "adaptation".

I would rather die first before see that happen!

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Cause thinks TDR is the most cuttable book out of all the early books. But TDR is a lot of fans' favorite book. Some of you might be familiar with Erica Sadun, a programmer who blogs on the subject and who has published a few books. She was part of the early online fandom at Usenet. She let me interview her regarding some of her signing reports and general early fandom stuff, and I learned that she thinks TDR is the pinnacle of the series and that RJ lost his way starting with books 4-6. Today, books 4-6 are the most universally popular books of the series.

This cannot be true? Can it? I would argue that to disappear your primary antagonist for 80% of your third (and at one point final) book is not a literary smart move! Ther has to be a poll for this!

Terez, on 12 May 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Of all the things to cut...the Stone of Tear? Rand's harem? I mean, I get the complaints about the latter but without that you have a virtually unrecognizable story. What is the point? If you're trying to capitalize on a popular series, the safest route is to do your best to stick to the story that millions of fans fell in love with, because they all love it for different reasons, and once you start cutting based on what you liked and didn't like, you get into dangerous territory. I'm sure the "Legend of the Seeker" folks thought they were making a better story, but we see how that turned out.

What kind of logistical sense does it make to have the Shaido fight Rand's Aiel in the Waste instead of at Cairhien? As it is, RJ kills several birds with one stone—the Cairhien stage—and that's the best kind of plot logistics one could hope for in an adaptation. It's exactly the kind of scenario you try to create where it doesn't exist in the books.

I would cut the stone of Tear because it and callandor are tied together. So long as we get Callandor and its hard to do I would argue that the Stone is just the setting. It does not need to be cut but it does need to be curtailed at the least. Part of the problem is that in the later books the Stone of Tear is still just hanging around, a weight around the plots neck. Rand was king of Tear, Illian, Cairhein, the Aiel etc and yet he was never an emperor. He had 5 countries, 5 capitals, 5 courts etc. That wont work in a TV series I would think. How would a TV series show us that every time Rand turns his back the country he just left goes into rebellion. How many times would they have to show it before it gets boring. How many side characters would we need to keep track of in how many locations?

That's why I say deal with the Shaido in the wastes as well. And deal with them decisively as a high point as the end of a season after revealing the secrets of Rhuidean and making Rand Chief of Chiefs. Dont let the shaido out of the wastes an army 150k strong to wonder around for 4 more seasons getting up to minor almost pointless mischief. Have him save cairhean from an army from Andor under Rahvin instead and tie those two plots together and deal with them in a decisive swoop.

Also its an adaption. Be faithfull to the original in style and intent but also dont be a carbon copy. Game of thrones is popular with millions who never read the books and speaking for myself I enjoy it most when its not a carbon copy of the books. I already saw that story and my imagination beats out the CGI budget of the show.

RJ would have benefited from chekhov's gun. Its commonly misunderstood but what it really means is that no element should be put into a narrative unless its necessary and irreplaceable. Characters, plotlines and prophecies all fail this test in Jordan's books.

[Werthead]

Quote

Let's not pretend that the Seanchan aren't a bastardized, mixed-up-in-a-bowl Asian stereotype filtered into fantasy, up to and including their name.

Since the Seanchan are basically a hyper-exaggerated version of slave-owning Texans (even down to coming from the same continent, post-Breaking), I think it says more about the reader immediately assuming they're Asians than anything that Jordan put in the text The actual Asian-influenced cultures are Shara (which doesn't seem to bear much actual resemblance to Asia any more) and the Borderland nations.

Quote

As I said earlier, the main problem with books 7-11 is structure. RJ was in bad health and had to cut back on his writing time, so he wasn't able to finish his book outlines.

I haven't heard that before. I know he had a health issue between LoC and ACoS, but that sounds like it was related to stress rather than anything more fundamental, and he did say that no symptoms of his amyloidosis surfaced until the KoD book tour in late 2005.

Quote

You talk a lot about "the fans"...but actual WOT fans would make up a tiny, tiny portion of the demographic a TV show would seek out in ratings world. And I'll be blunt...the people who bought this likely care VERY little about WOT fans. Hollywood man, it is what it is. Your "the series millions of fans fell in love with" is (though a large number) but a drop in the bucket for the amount of people this show has to court to stay solvent and popular.

WoT is one of the biggest-selling fantasy series ever written, which ASoIaF was very definitely not when it was optioned. WoT has a much bigger pre-built-in audience, on a local and global level. The studio involved would be very foolish not to engage with the pre-existing fanbase as a way of drumming up excitement. HBO did that with ASoIaF and even with that much smaller reader base were able to start building up levels of excitement and hype. Alienating that audience beforehand will not be a good idea.

On top of that, GoT's global success is unprecedented and unlikely to be replicated. Unless it was on Netflix or maybe Amazon, the WoT TV series will likely have a smaller audience and that audience will proportionally consist of more book readers than otherwise.

Quote

Let's use SHANNARA as an example. The fans are largely either "meh" on the TV show, or they are outright bothered or angry about it as an adaptation. But casual TV viewers who never read the books and have no idea who Terry Brooks is? They seem to LOVE it as far as I can tell.

Really not so much. The best reviews damn it with faint praise, saying it's okay for kids or teenagers and that's about it. Its metacritic ratings are hovering around 50%, with the overwhelming majority of reviews saying it's mediocre. Mainly because it is. It's not a good show at all, and to be frank I'd be hard-pressed to say whether it was better or worse than Legend of the Seeker.

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EDIT to add: Serious query Terez, do you honestly think that Rand's harem flies with casual TV audiences in 2016? I can actually visualize the social media shitstorm that would wash across the internet right now.

It's 2016. Polyamorous relationships are a lot more common now and depicting one on TV is unusual, so could be seen as progressive depending on how it's handled. I don't see that being a problem in itself, but I do see a lot of eye-rolling at the relationship involving one guy and three hot women. It would have to be handled sensitively. Although it is worth noting that the show would be in its third or fourth season before it really got going in a big way, so it's not like it'll be a big issue upfront. Also, the "harem" descriptor needs to die a death, as it's quite inaccurate: Rand is with Aviendha as they come out of the Waste, then she leaves and he's with Min, and then he gets to spend like one night with Elayne. He's not with all three of them at the same time, and I think all four of them are in the same room (with other people) once in the entire series.

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This cannot be true? Can it? I would argue that to disappear your primary antagonist for 80% of your third (and at one point final) book is not a literary smart move! Ther has to be a poll for this!

In twenty years of following the online WoT fandom, I've never once seen it come up as an issue. Rand has a chunk of story at the beggining and end, and pops up here and there in the middle. But cutting him out for chunks of story when he's not doing anything important and focusing more on Egwene, Elayne, Mat and Perrin (who'd not had a lot of development at that point, and Mat had spent all of Book 2 and half of Book 1 as a dagger-induced shadow of his normal self) seems to have been universally received well. It was cutting out Perrin and Mat altogether from later books that didn't go down well. TDR is very well-regarded across the board, it's the second-shortest book of the series (a few thousand words longer than PoD) but is by far the tightest, leanest and most economically-written. I think TSR is a better book overall, and LoC has the best ending (but is slow-going in the middle of the novel) but TDR is definitely up there.

The two books-per-season structure and the fact that TDR would cover less episodes (being a shorter book) means that Rand would really only be 100% missing from maybe 2 episodes of the season, which isn't too bad at all. In fact, I'd be very keen to have a new, stand-alone and focused episode showing the journey from Rand's POV as I think he underwent some interesting character growth during that solo journey and meeting ordinary people that could be worthwhile to put on screen. But only if it was possible from a time point of view.

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no element should be put into a narrative unless its necessary and irreplaceable. Characters, plotlines and prophecies all fail this test in Jordan's books.

And they do in Erikson's, and Martin's, and Bakker's, and Tolkien's, and Rowling's. The MBF would be two 500 books long if that was the case. The divergences, side-stories, tertiary characters and worldbuilding are what make epic fantasy epic fantasy. Without them, what's the point? Yes, it actually makes it easier to adapt in some ways (Jackson pulled out Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire and it didn't really do much to the structure of the story, even if it thematically weakened the story versus that in the novel), but at some point your "helpful" editing inadvertently cuts out the soul of the story.

I think you can handle the Shaido differently. I always wondered if Jordan envisaged them changing sides and playing a role at the Last Battle, but in KoD decided he couldn't find a way of doing that convincingly so just had them leave. They are definitely prune-worthy, and you can't have Faile being a prisoner for two full seasons of a TV show, but I think you also need them to show that Rand taking command of the Aiel is controversial, and not everyone will follow him automatically.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 13 May 2016 - 10:23 AM

[Macros]

How about a trolloc murders Faile to death and Perrin wastes a season mourning off screen, I think pretty much everyone would be on board with that

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 13 May 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

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Let's not pretend that the Seanchan aren't a bastardized, mixed-up-in-a-bowl Asian stereotype filtered into fantasy, up to and including their name.

Since the Seanchan are basically a hyper-exaggerated version of slave-owning Texans (even down to coming from the same continent, post-Breaking), I think it says more about the reader immediately assuming they're Asians than anything that Jordan put in the text The actual Asian-influenced cultures are Shara (which doesn't seem to bear much actual resemblance to Asia any more) and the Borderland nations.

Actually the Asian allegories for the Seanchan come from RJ himself as far as I know. But let's break it down a bit...(snipped from elsewhere) Imperial China, Imperial Japan, Persian Empire, Ottoman and Byzantine Empire. (RJ); The lacquer work of the Seanchan seems to be inspired by the Far East, the Emperor/Empress that is too magnificent for commoners to gaze upon is a concept borrowed from Japan. The phrase "Ever Victorious Army" was actually in use in Japan during one point of its history. Persian Empire: The Crystal Throne that inspires awe is a direct allusion to a Persian epic story. Ancient Egypt: pleated linen clothing, the tonsured heads, the patterns on Suroth's gown (symbols within cartouche-like ovals) which could be visualized as resembling hieroglyphics. WH provides even more cultural flavorings, including Greek names (Tuon's middle name is "Kore" [an ancient name for the Greek Goddess Persephone] and Selucia [Selucid Kingdom]), and Egyptian names (Neferi [Nefertiti]).

Texan? I mean wot?

Werthead, on 13 May 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

WoT is one of the biggest-selling fantasy series ever written, which ASoIaF was very definitely not when it was optioned. WoT has a much bigger pre-built-in audience, on a local and global level. The studio involved would be very foolish not to engage with the pre-existing fanbase as a way of drumming up excitement. HBO did that with ASoIaF and even with that much smaller reader base were able to start building up levels of excitement and hype. Alienating that audience beforehand will not be a good idea.

On top of that, GoT's global success is unprecedented and unlikely to be replicated. Unless it was on Netflix or maybe Amazon, the WoT TV series will likely have a smaller audience and that audience will proportionally consist of more book readers than otherwise.

Again, TV studios DON'T GIVE A SHIT. I know book fans wish they did (Hell, I wish they did) but no matter how much they squawk they are a very small portion of the tv audience. I'm not saying that they will actively set out to piss off that fanbase...but they certainly won't consider them when making decisions on cuts, differences, and narrative structure or character arcs. The TV industry is a big beast and has to please a lot of people to be a success.

It's not about drumming up excitement (that's the marketing teams job, and they CERTAINLY don't just pander to book fans). It's about the TV studio making the decisions that are best for EVERYONE who would watch the show...and not just those that bought the books and are fans.

And who said anything about alienating them beforehand (and how do you go about doing that when those fans won't have seen squat yet)? I said that they would make the changes they saw fit when they were required...and by the time some of those major changes would likely occur, the show would be well into it's second season at least.

Werthead, on 13 May 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Really not so much. The best reviews damn it with faint praise, saying it's okay for kids or teenagers and that's about it. Its metacritic ratings are hovering around 50%, with the overwhelming majority of reviews saying it's mediocre. Mainly because it is. It's not a good show at all, and to be frank I'd be hard-pressed to say whether it was better or worse than Legend of the Seeker.

Yeah, not going on a metacritic rating....go on Facebook or twitter and check out the vast droves who seem to love the show. That's what I'm basing my statement on. And let's not kid ourselves that ANY metric on the internet is speaking for most of the audience. All I know is that the show's FB page gets hammered with love more often than anything else...and during its season 1 run it was pretty well loved on Twitter as well.

Werthead, on 13 May 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

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EDIT to add: Serious query Terez, do you honestly think that Rand's harem flies with casual TV audiences in 2016? I can actually visualize the social media shitstorm that would wash across the internet right now.

It's 2016. Polyamorous relationships are a lot more common now and depicting one on TV is unusual, so could be seen as progressive depending on how it's handled. I don't see that being a problem in itself, but I do see a lot of eye-rolling at the relationship involving one guy and three hot women. It would have to be handled sensitively. Although it is worth noting that the show would be in its third or fourth season before it really got going in a big way, so it's not like it'll be a big issue upfront. Also, the "harem" descriptor needs to die a death, as it's quite inaccurate: Rand is with Aviendha as they come out of the Waste, then she leaves and he's with Min, and then he gets to spend like one night with Elayne. He's not with all three of them at the same time, and I think all four of them are in the same room (with other people) once in the entire series.

If you don't see how this would be slammed down by sites like the Mary Sue or Jezebel with a vehement fire...then I can't help you.

A love triangle would be fine...but it never featured as such in the books to me, it was always Rand has these women that all love him off...and he revels in it and takes advantage when he feels like it. That would NEVER fly son.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2016 - 12:08 PM

[Werthead]

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Texan? I mean wot?

From RJ himself, the Seanchan speak with a Texan drawl, they're slave-owners like those in the American South pre-CW, they believe absolutely in their own righteousness despite the apparently inarguable imorality, and are prepared to die in their thousands (or, more accurately, send thousands to die on their behalf). Plus they're actually from America (more or less).

Like all of the cultures there is a cross-bleed from elsewhere, but that was certainly a strong part of it.

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Again, TV studios DON'T GIVE A SHIT. I know book fans wish they did (Hell, I wish they did) but no matter how much they squawk they are a very small portion of the tv audience. I'm not saying that they will actively set out to piss off that fanbase...but they certainly won't consider them when making decisions on cuts, differences, and narrative structure or character arcs. The TV industry is a big beast and has to please a lot of people to be a success.

They do very much give a shit, at least in the launch phase. The fact that these books have sold close to a hundred million copies worldwide (almost fifty times as many copies as ASoIaF had sold when it was optioned) is a very large, very important part of why they have spent $10 million minimum (and likely more) on the rights. They know that the book-reading fanbase will be their launchpad and, unless they are complete idiots, they will be careful not to alienate or piss them off beforehand. By the time they get to Season 3 or 4 they may have switched to not giving a shit (like Benioff and Weiss have done for GoT) but I suspect they will stay relatively close to the books to start with and then massively compress things down later on (as everyone has been advocating).

If they do a Legend of the Seeker/Shannara thing of saying from Day One that they're not going to really do the books and will change everything and make that clearer and clearer with each press release before the show launches, then there backblast they'll get will be considerable. Those were much smaller-scale projects and, notably, based on books with a much lower critical standing amongst fantasy fans and a far smaller fanbase than WoT.

I also know that at least one of the major fansites has been drafted in to advise on at least some aspects of the project, which is at least somewhat hopeful.

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Yeah, not going on a metacritic rating....go on Facebook or twitter and check out the vast droves who seem to love the show. That's what I'm basing my statement on. And let's not kid ourselves that ANY metric on the internet is speaking for most of the audience. All I know is that the show's FB page gets hammered with love more often than anything else...and during its season 1 run it was pretty well loved on Twitter as well.

"IGNORE STATISTICAL EVIDENCE IN FAVOUR OF ANECDOTES ON THE SHOW'S ACTUAL FAN PAGE!"

I think I'll stick with the actual figures. The critical reviews are pretty damning and the public reviews are within the 4-6/10 margin. The show hasn't been completely slated to hell and gone, but it's critical standing is pretty weaksauce.

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If you don't see how this would be slammed down by sites like the Mary Sue or Jezebel with a vehement fire...then I can't help you.

They've both slammed GoT, the biggest and most sucessful drama show in the world right now. The Mary Stu declared it was going to stop watching it about 5 times (and finding a way of coming back because they needed the hits) before they finally followed through. The show's ratings have gone up. So much for that having any kind of relevance whatsoever. In fact, HBO seem to have enjoyed the furore and the extra coverage. It may have even made more people watch the show.

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A love triangle would be fine...but it never featured as such in the books to me, it was always Rand has these women that all love him off...and he revels in it and takes advantage when he feels like it. That would NEVER fly son.

Rand spends quite a large chunk of the series feeling weird and disgusted by it before giving in. He also doesn't take advantage of it "whenever he feels like it". On almost every occasion he kind of has to be talked into it (he doesn't put up a huge amount of resistance, it has to be said). He himself and all of the women involved are weirded out by it before they finally say screw it, the world's about to end, why not. RJ is kind of having his cake and eating it (it is based on his own personal experience, which is amusing, and that was two women rather than three) but it's not really exploitative in a series which doesn't have a single on-page sex scene.

Gender politics is also kind of WoT's thing. It is one of the reasons it's been so successful, and that - in the grand scheme of things, rather minor - subplot is part of it. You could drop it, sure, but you could also use it to drum up some additional conversation. I mean, Masters of Sex is pretty much 100% about relationship issues and different kinds of sexual relationships and that's one of the most critically-acclaimed shows on TV right now.

[QuickTidal]

So Texan...even though EVERYTHING else about them screams Asian. Riiiight. Sorry, you're not selling em that bridge Wert. RJ may have said that, but he can't ignore all the isms he added in to them that ARE distinctly Asian.

Twitter is not a fan page.

And your statistical evidence accounts for...goes and looks...15 critics and 238 user reviews...Yep. That's the whole audience. SMH.

The FB site for any given show is NOT a FAN PAGE. It's a microcosm of those that watch the show and follow things about it. Look at the page for THE 100...it's FULL of hate for the show by people who watched it. Just because a FB page exists for a show doesn't automatically mean it's filled with people without discerning eyes or opinions.

As to Rand's harem (yep, still calling it that, you can't stop me), bad press is bad press. No amount of trying to explain Rand's feelings or any of the things that might qualify it in the thousands of pages of source materiel...is going to fly with mass audiences. They will see and base their opinions on the most blatant things on screen. I will flat out guarantee you right now that it will not be on screen as it is in the books. I mention the Mary Sue and Jezebel (sites I don't like that I feel are far left extremists) because they are followed by a lot of people, and their articles get picked up a LOT by the mainstream media. That's a risky thing when you are bankrolling a huge show.

And you can't use MASTERS OF SEX as an example...that show is ALL about that and those relationships. Rand's harem is not a big enough feature to be delved into the way MASTERS OF SEX does. As such they would spend far too much time establishing the ins and outs of it and they could not do that...as a result it would be touched on too lightly and not explained enough to make it fly. It's not going to happen. Sorry man.