[HiddenOne]

Dhenrabi, on 28 April 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Andorion, you're assuming that a lot of things are global in mafia that certainly aren't.

The closest we have to a symp on NF is a traitor, which works the other way around. Mafia know his identity, but he does not know mafia's. Mafia can choose to recruit him to become a formal team member at any point. Until this moment he will scan as town. Traitor is usually revealed as a traitor on death.

FM is a concept that I've never even heard of, but I think it's pretty cool. We don't play alted games on NF so it is practically impossible to implement a role like this.

Usually a majority isn't needed for a lynch either on NF. The person with the most votes gets lynched no matter what. Days and nights last a set amount of time and are only shortened if it is very clear no one is interested in talking anymore and they are willing to lock their votes. The only way to have a non-lynch is if it's voted as such (no lynch is an option which is separated from no vote).

Since those things are pretty much the meat and bone of your argument I don't think it holds much merit. I'm not pretending to be a newbie, I come from a place with different rulesets and different roles that are seen as 'standard knowledge'.

I went off the Tattersail wagon because it had gained so much steam too easily. I'm not sure why you are saying this is weird when I got onto the wagon as one of the first, especially since Tattersail defended himself in the meantime. The defense lessened my suspicion and I did not want to be part of a hammer I was not sure about while I was gone.

You also omitted a post I made from your overview, the one in which I withdrew the coltaine vote. This honestly looks like a deliberate omission since you are showcasing it as a complete exhibit of my behavior this game. Is this correct? Did you not think it of note?

I'm glad that you (and the others I haven't played with before) are here - the recent complaints of stagnation in the realm should be alleviated by new blood and methods.

So do you feel as if Andorion is pushing against you earnestly or just to get a reaction? If you are accusing him if cherrypicking your quotes (common tactic) to strengthen his own points, I would expect you to find him scummy.

[Khellendros]

Tattersail_, on 28 April 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 April 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

So Tatts, if you were so intent on lynching HO yesterday, why haven't you tried today?

If it wasn't good enough yesterday why will it be today?
All I can add to that is Mess seemingly defending him. Yet Mess wouldn't be as overt as that.

No he wouldn't, at least not when there was still fairly little pressure on HO and good alternatives to boot. So either he genuinely disagreed or it was fake symping, if you want to go down that route.

To address your question, because that 'good alternative' I just mentioned didn't pan out, that's why it might be good enough today. Having said which, I haven't seen much to strongly convince me of it.

[Khellendros]

Tattersail_, on 28 April 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Lady Bliss, on 28 April 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Tapper, on 28 April 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

I am going to

Vote Tattersail.

Sorry for the absence guys, it has been crazy.
That being said, on to a bit of content: the explanation for the vote above is that Tattersail has applying super glue instead of proper means of construction to his own suspicions/arguments. Yeah, a flimsy thing can stick, but I prefer proper nuts and bolts. It seems he is determined to lead a discussion and judge what are good or bad decisions (or town play), now also in hindsight.

The vote on Khell is the latest and most blatant of the bunch. Am I falling for the old issue where Tattersail is scummy no matter what? Maybe. I really think it might be a possibility and him being a towny. Tatts can change styles on the fly, and as far as meta goes, those playstyles can be either scum or town. On the other hand, I do get the idea he's once again building smoke screens by flitting from one person to the next with a bunch of post its containing 'scummy' 'not scummy' 'soooo scummy'.

I'm not opposed to a Tatts lynch, and I'm leaning that way at the moment. The only issue I have is that I feel like his play is more distracting and sympish, so have been trying to decide who he could be symping.

That game you played Bliss (A Newb Game) were you were a symp (alkend) you kept labelling other people as being a symp. If you think me a symp, then who the fuck am I symping?

Tapper says I am all over the place, ready to lynch anybody, and you think I'm symping by doing this.



When. When was the last time we caught a symp? When was we last right about a symp? If you're saying that because a killer wouldn't play this way then you're right, I doubt they would.

So far this game I've voted multiple people, Ando, Blend, HO, Khell, and cast suspicion at others. Aren't the killers meant to try fit in and get people on their side and last until the end of the fucking game?

Small suspect pool like Tapper, or awesome townie like Khell, or mr excuse like Macros, or fucking whimsy nonsense like HO. Fuck sake.

Haha, as much as I disagree with your cass-making, I do have to sorta agree with this summary, although I do think ultimately you are doing an injustice with your categorisations Of course, having said that, townies should endeavour to get people on their side too, otherwise lynches can become difficult.

[Khellendros]

Dhenrabi, on 28 April 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 April 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 28 April 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Andorion, you're assuming that a lot of things are global in mafia that certainly aren't.

The closest we have to a symp on NF is a traitor, which works the other way around. Mafia know his identity, but he does not know mafia's. Mafia can choose to recruit him to become a formal team member at any point. Until this moment he will scan as town. Traitor is usually revealed as a traitor on death.

FM is a concept that I've never even heard of, but I think it's pretty cool. We don't play alted games on NF so it is practically impossible to implement a role like this.

Usually a majority isn't needed for a lynch either on NF. The person with the most votes gets lynched no matter what. Days and nights last a set amount of time and are only shortened if it is very clear no one is interested in talking anymore and they are willing to lock their votes. The only way to have a non-lynch is if it's voted as such (no lynch is an option which is separated from no vote).

Since those things are pretty much the meat and bone of your argument I don't think it holds much merit. I'm not pretending to be a newbie, I come from a place with different rulesets and different roles that are seen as 'standard knowledge'.

I went off the Tattersail wagon because it had gained so much steam too easily. I'm not sure why you are saying this is weird when I got onto the wagon as one of the first, especially since Tattersail defended himself in the meantime. The defense lessened my suspicion and I did not want to be part of a hammer I was not sure about while I was gone.

You also omitted a post I made from your overview, the one in which I withdrew the coltaine vote. This honestly looks like a deliberate omission since you are showcasing it as a complete exhibit of my behavior this game. Is this correct? Did you not think it of note?

OK I did not know about the mechanics difference. Consider that part withdrawn.

However I am concerned about your voting without stating a case or reason. It just seems arbitrary. Even when you would rather vote for Bubba you don't give a reason. This makes it impossible to understand how you are approaching the game and thus raises suspicions

During those few posts, I was acting under significant time restraints which prevented me from elaborating on my feelings so far. The way I view it, it is still better to leave a vote and drop some names, even as only an incentive for other players to look into them on their own. On top of this, it exerts a minimum of pressure while not putting them in direct danger of being mislynched. I am aware that it looks like a possible form of blending but I don't really mind. I welcome others to engage with me not only because it gives me extra clues on those going after me, but also because I have simply nothing to hide and interaction can only show others the truth of this.

Like I explained earlier, I voted for Nom because I wanted to see a lynch and wasn't too sure about the exact numbers game. I really dislike no lynch on day one because it gives pretty much zero clues for the following day phase.

Would you mind still answering my last question from my last post?


I'm spell-checking a school assignment now and will be for a while, but I'll drop in later in the phase to give my thoughts on the game so far.

Okay, but now you had time to write these replies, but still didn't spell out your reasoning for choosing to vote Coltaine (unless you did it in the post which Ando apparently omitted?).

[Khellendros]

Speaking of Coltaine

Coltaine93, on 28 April 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Just Plain Kitsu, on 28 April 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 28 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Post #410 - Kitsu said Serge could have been killed because of the comment "Scum love lists"

This doesn't make sense to me, but Coltaine seemed to follow him in comprehension. Someone please explain.

At the time, we were discussing why Sierg could have been a target by a potential vig. Looking through his contributions, the list was the thing that stood out to me most.

Yeah, and I thought we could eliminate Gust as possible killer, as Serg was the only one voting for him. Not a real threat.


But

Tattersail_, on 28 April 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

The 2 games I found with Gust/Corv as scum were A Newb Game, and Mafia 80 - Benses IV.

Both games he was a high poster, more invested towards the end of day than the beginning. Both games he was late to the party day one, missing a bit of the idle chatter, and both games he voted early. Within 1 or 3 posts. As scum he likes to be on every lynch train. I remember towards end game he gets quite excited, and posts a lot more, and votes quickly. He can be persuasive but I know what to look out for.
He does not mind starting trains or hopping aboard them to get them flowing. He hammered fellow scum in the newb game.

Fun note, he actually likes to off people who accuse him, in the benses games he killed galayn lord night one who was one of the only people to suspect him.

If Gust really tends to kill people accussing him, he may be back on the list.

Coltaine93, on 28 April 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Not much time left. And I'm still unsure.

I'm currently not thinking HOs Day 1 posts were not that suspicious in comparison, but his posts from today...
Asking what our thoughts are, disliking posts without saying why, offering no real content somehow.

Now I have him back on my list.



I'm also thinking about Gust. If Tatts post is correct.

Tattersail_, on 28 April 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

The 2 games I found with Gust/Corv as scum were A Newb Game, and Mafia 80 - Benses IV.

Both games he was a high poster, more invested towards the end of day than the beginning. Both games he was late to the party day one, missing a bit of the idle chatter, and both games he voted early. Within 1 or 3 posts. As scum he likes to be on every lynch train. I remember towards end game he gets quite excited, and posts a lot more, and votes quickly. He can be persuasive but I know what to look out for.
He does not mind starting trains or hopping aboard them to get them flowing. He hammered fellow scum in the newb game.

Fun note, he actually likes to off people who accuse him, in the benses games he killed galayn lord night one who was one of the only people to suspect him.

What do the other veterans think?


And there are also Tatts, Khell and Macros. With Tatts big theory and his prime suspects pointing on him.


Too difficult currently to decide. I will set me an alarm and look again before day 2 is over.

You do seem quite interested in this idea about Gust. If you think it's a worthy possibility, then why not vote there and see what kind of pressure you can exert and what kind of reaction you get? At the moment you give the impression of carefully tiptoeing around some things you want to say.

[Dhenrabi]

I'm pretty sure I saw someone had a method for reading only the posts by one user but I can't find the post anymore. Someone care to enlighten me, manual searching for posts is painful.

[Dhenrabi]

HiddenOne, on 28 April 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 28 April 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Andorion, you're assuming that a lot of things are global in mafia that certainly aren't.

The closest we have to a symp on NF is a traitor, which works the other way around. Mafia know his identity, but he does not know mafia's. Mafia can choose to recruit him to become a formal team member at any point. Until this moment he will scan as town. Traitor is usually revealed as a traitor on death.

FM is a concept that I've never even heard of, but I think it's pretty cool. We don't play alted games on NF so it is practically impossible to implement a role like this.

Usually a majority isn't needed for a lynch either on NF. The person with the most votes gets lynched no matter what. Days and nights last a set amount of time and are only shortened if it is very clear no one is interested in talking anymore and they are willing to lock their votes. The only way to have a non-lynch is if it's voted as such (no lynch is an option which is separated from no vote).

Since those things are pretty much the meat and bone of your argument I don't think it holds much merit. I'm not pretending to be a newbie, I come from a place with different rulesets and different roles that are seen as 'standard knowledge'.

I went off the Tattersail wagon because it had gained so much steam too easily. I'm not sure why you are saying this is weird when I got onto the wagon as one of the first, especially since Tattersail defended himself in the meantime. The defense lessened my suspicion and I did not want to be part of a hammer I was not sure about while I was gone.

You also omitted a post I made from your overview, the one in which I withdrew the coltaine vote. This honestly looks like a deliberate omission since you are showcasing it as a complete exhibit of my behavior this game. Is this correct? Did you not think it of note?

I'm glad that you (and the others I haven't played with before) are here - the recent complaints of stagnation in the realm should be alleviated by new blood and methods.

So do you feel as if Andorion is pushing against you earnestly or just to get a reaction? If you are accusing him if cherrypicking your quotes (common tactic) to strengthen his own points, I would expect you to find him scummy.

It's an interesting situation because it makes it seem like I left the Coltaine vote hanging, which I did not. Also I have now asked him about it twice and he was certainly there to answer one of the two times, but have not received a reply to that. I didn't really read him scum in the rest of the game though so I'm not too sure either way.

[Dhenrabi]

Mandatory wall of quotes warning. Coltaine's posts after the first one I pointed out (with the edit).

Basically, his entire day one consisted of telling everyone how confused he was by everything.

Coltaine93, on 26 April 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Ooh, just noticed I was naked. Glad I changed that fairly quickly!

Coltaine93 - we log in anonymously when we're playing a game of Mafia. That way people can't see if you're reading the thread and not posting, or if you're on at specific times and stuff.

When you're not anonymous, we call that being naked!

Okay, I'm wearing trousers now. I hope that is enough

And for the rest:
I'm getting more and more confused about Tattersail and Andorion. Every time I'm nearly convinced to vote for one of them a new post comes.
But a lot of people are also worried about Kellendros.

But what is with Nom? He followed Tattersail very quickly in accussing Andorion and is now absent for some time. On the other hand it would be stupied to work so obvious together if both are scum. I don't think that experienced players would do this.

Confused about Tattersail and Andorion, no opinion om them. Other people are worried about Khellendros, no opinion on him.
Confused about Nom, does not think him scum.

Coltaine93, on 26 April 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

I'm not too comfortable with the speed of the Tattersail wagon. I won't be around for quite a while, because of Koningsnacht/dag (Tapper will understand) so I'm going to change my vote for now.

[Vote lynch Coltaine93]


I have just skimmed most of the thread up to this point. I might be back before phase end to read up properly, but I'm not sure.

Looks like adding thinking thinking thinking to your post can kill you

I think 'thinking thinking thinking' is pretty strange to add as an afterthought unless again, it's to exhibit confusion.

Coltaine93, on 26 April 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

And I'm still thinking about Nom as a candidate. Just gut feeling. May change once he is back.

But it may end Andorion vs Tattersail for day 1. Not sure how to decide in that case. Maybe I should read the whole tread again.

Nom went from 'I don't think he's scum' to a gut feel candidate. Still no position on Andorion v Tattersail but does mention it again.

Coltaine93, on 26 April 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

Okay, now I understood why it is better to lynch someone on day one. But still a difficult decision.
But hey, 16 hours left. I will go to sleep and decide tomorrow

Again doesn't take position on anything, says that it is a difficult decision.

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Back and reading up. Everyone still alive?

Look I'm here guys! I sure hope nothing happened while I was gone!

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

Lady Bliss, on 26 April 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Itwas Nom, on 26 April 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

Coltaine93, on 26 April 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

Okay, now I understood why it is better to lynch someone on day one. But still a difficult decision.
But hey, 16 hours left. I will go to sleep and decide tomorrow

I'll just note that with remaining time going down your options are narrowing if you really wanna get a lynch, you might end up having only one option despite no-lynch

Yes, we only have 17 hours...

Sorry, I forgot that the timer of the posts and myself are not in the same time zone. For me in my drunken state after a pub visit it looked like an one hour old post and I wanted to be smart and calculated the amount of hours left.

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Quote

Often what happens is that we get close to lynching someone on Day 1, usually for some stupid reason that only makes a little bit of sense, but because we don't end up getting the lynch, even with the kill info (and most killers will often kill someone completely unrelated to the Day 1 controversy for this very reason), more often than not, the kill has nothing to do, either directly or obliquely, with the cases people were pushing Day 1, let alone being a kill that may give us enough information to suss out who the killers are yet. Then we get to Day 2, and if, as is usually the case, nothing new has come up information-wise, we spend the entirety of another day cycle rehashing the exact same cases as during Day 1.<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 11.7px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(24, 24, 24);"><br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 11.7px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(24, 24, 24);">So, by not lynching on Day 1, we've now wasted 2 days arguing about the same cases.

Thanks Blend, that helps a lot!

Andorion v Tatts looks like the point of contention for Day 1 and admittedly the core of my own reasoning from the previous post, so I went back and looked and how it unfolded (this timeline is limited to the Androion-Tattersail situation):

• Andorion starts speculating about mechanics
• Tatts joins the speculation
• In the next post Macros throws accusation at Andorion because of that speculation
• Khell joins and points fingers at Andorion
• Tattersail votes Andorion
• Nom votes Andorion
• Dhenrabi votes Tatts
• Macros votes Tatts
• HiddenOne comes back to Macros' post that started the whole debate and votes Andorion
• JPK votes Andorion
• Gust votes Tatts
• Dhenrabi removes vote against Tatts
• Tatts removes vote against Andorion and votes Blend
• JPK removes vote against Andorion

What looked fishy to me is how Macros only focused on Andorion speculating mechanics and how Tatts pivoted from talking mechanics himself to lynching Andorion. But then he actually backtracked and voted Tatts, so it makes sense. And for the record, Tatts did offer an excuse for his speculation:

Quote

The difference between me speculating on what the extra role may be, (asking Tapper, who has run a lot of games) and Andorion speculating on what town roles there may be is huge

This sounds like a shaky logic to me, but I don't want to jump to a conclusion based on only this with so little Mafia experience I have.

Initially I was most suspicious of team vote Andorion but after a re-read (more like re-skim to be fair) I think that would expose them too much. Throwing accusations at Tatts is more defensible and an opportunity to stir things up at the same time, with fueling the tension. Dhenrabi retracted his vote for Tatts and Macros actually backtracked to this conclusion after going after Andorion, so that leaves me with Gust. This is a looong shot and I might be reading way too much into things, but here it goes:

Vote GustHubb

Thanks for the list Siergiej

I read the most important posts again. I'm now not sure about Macros. Either he overlooked Tatts post, who posted 12 minuites before him, or he should probably also have reacted to this one. And voted for Tatts because he was too nice to newbies. Is Tatts normally meaner to everyone?

And Tatts jump from discussing game mechanics to accussing Andorion...

Anyway, my gut feeling is still with Nom, somehow.

Vote Itwas Nom

Here he acknowledges other cases again, while taking no position, again. He then reverts back to his gut feel read that evolved from not thinking nom was scum.

[Dhenrabi]

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Just Plain Kitsu, on 27 April 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

Bubba, on 27 April 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well thatsucks 3RI gone

The lynch?Day one is all I can say about that. Everyone is looking atthe train, I'm more interested in who wasn't on it. Thebest hiding place on a train is never getting on in the first place.

Mess?Grudge killing? taking out the helpful players? I'm willing to bet Mess washigh up on a few lists.

Sergiej?Who said we should kill/lynch the new players? I remember reading that. Kell?

We haveon kill from the killers and one from the vig. Propably. Can a vig also be partof the scum?
Assumption:Vig is from the town
So wehave to take for both kills into account why the killers wantedto see them dead and why the vig could have thought that they arekillers. If the vig is one of us we could lose another town memberby killing him.

I wouldguess that Mess was killed by the killers, maybe for being to helpful, or beingto good as a player.

And Sergiejhad good posts. But I can't find a reason for someone to think hewas part of the scum. So maybe reverse? Sergiej killed by killersand Mess by vig? Sergiej voted against Gust Hubb. Can't rememberwhy. I will search the post.

A reasonfor vig to target Sierg was the list. I think it was Bliss whopointed out "scum love lists"

Okay,forgot about that.

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

InitiallyI was most suspicious of team vote Andorion but aftera re-read (more like re-skim to be fair) I think that would expose them toomuch. Throwing accusations at Tatts is more defensible and an opportunity tostir things up at the same time, with fueling the tension. Dhenrabiretracted his vote for Tatts and Macros actually backtracked to this conclusionafter going after Andorion, so that leaves me with Gust. This is a looong shotand I might be reading way too much into things, but here it goes:

Vote GustHubb

Don't think that this is enough to justify killing him to protect Gust.

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Dare Isay it non-newbies? Dare I?

Go on, bea devil

Scum lovelists!!! file:///C:\Users\Chaos\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif

Soprobably this killed him

Addingmore speculation but again taking no position on anything. The only thing thatcould be incriminating, Siergiey's vote on Gust, is put away as 'not enough tojustify killing'. I don't think 'scum love lists' is a better reason to killsomeone.

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 April 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Night 1:

Messremb is dead. He was RI

Sergiej is dead. He was RI

It is day2. 36 hours remain


14players alive: ADL, Andorion, Blend, Bliss, Bubba, Coltain93, Dhenrabi, Gusty,HO, Khell, Kitsu, Macros, Tapper, Tatts


8 votesto lynch, 7 votes to night.

Votes:



Playersnot voted: ADL, Andorion, Blend, Bliss, Bubba, Coltain93, Dhenrabi, Gusty, HO,Khell, Kitsu, Macros, Tapper, Tatts

Dammit.Two kills? Looks like Andorions guess from the beginning was correct

Start ofday 2. More confusion and a little buddying on the side.

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

Bubba, on 27 April 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well thatsucks 3RI gone

Thelynch? Day one is all I can say about that. Everyone is looking atthe train, I'm more interested in who wasn't on it. The best hidingplace on a train is never getting on in the first place.

Mess?Grudge killing? taking out the helpful players? I'm willing to bet Mess washigh up on a few lists.

Sergiej?Who said we should kill/lynch the new players? I remember reading that. Kell?

We haveon kill from the killers and one from the vig. Propably. Can a vig also be partof the scum?
Assumption:Vig is from the town
So wehave to take for both kills into account why the killers wanted to see themdead and why the vig could have thought that they are killers. If the vig isone of us we could lose another town member by killing him.

I wouldguess that Mess was killed by the killers, maybe for being to helpful, or beingto good as a player.

AndSergiej had good posts. But I can't find a reason for someone to think he waspart of the scum. So maybe reverse? Sergiej killed by killers and Mess by vig?Sergiej voted against Gust Hubb. Can't remember why. I will searchthe post.

I don'tknow if this is deliberate misinformation, but I have personally never seen anon-town vig. Then again, the kill might as well have been from an SK, I'm notsure why it's assumed to be vig at all.

Coltaine93, on 28 April 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Andorion, on 28 April 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

I'm nottoo comfortable with the speed of the Tattersail wagon. I won't be around forquite a while, because of Koningsnacht/dag (Tapper will understand) so I'mgoing to change my vote for now.

[Vote lynch Coltaine93]


I havejust skimmed most of the thread up to this point. I might be back before phaseend to read up properly, but I'm not sure.

Didanybody else think this was rather strange?

Have togo off now. Seems like a very full day, probably won't be back for another 8hours.



Khell andHO need to be looked at

Yeah, me. file:///C:\Users\Chaos\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
But Ithink I was on his list for editing my second post. I'm not sure if thisnecessarily deserves a vote, but it was rather early in the thread. And hethought he wouldn't come back in time to vote for someone else so he maybe justvoted for someone he hab a gut feeling about.

Khellendros, on 28 April 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Okay, Ineed to do more reading up on a few people, but I wanted to say that I find ita little odd that people with fewer posts than me are saying I've been quiet.I've been as active as I normally am, barring that first RL day when I had someother things going on. In fact, I've still managed to be in the top 4 or 5posters file:///C:\Users\Chaos\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif If you're intimating that I'm usually an even higher poster than sorry,but you're wrong. Me being among the very top posters is usually a result ofsurviving deep into the game rather than being a spambot - think about lastgame, for example.


In anycase, I have more of an issue with the current discussion of what HAS to be thescum kill, or what HAS to be the vig kill. There's simply no way to know fromthe thread with any real degree of certainty, and the rigid conclusions that acouple of people seem to be drawing on the intentions behind the kills is notsomething I think is particularly helpful at this stage, without moreinformation. Hell, how do we know that it's not two independent killers ratherthan scum and vig?! No, I do not think that's likely, but my point is we can'tbe sure of anything from one night's worth of results. The vote train and thelead up to the lynch is what I'll be focusing on then.

There wassomething else I wanted to reply to but I've forgotten what it is.

Okay, Ihave to admit, without more information this discussion is stuck. Couldn'tidentify someone I'm thinking he is guilty. Mess too many candidates, Sergnobody he threated really/maybe the list, but I couldn't find something on itwe hadn't already discussed. Still interesting to read the point of vies ofsome more experienced players.


I am nowalso worried about experienced players lying low, after reading your comments.Lady Bliss and Tapper.
And thereare still the people discussed in Day 1. What is with HO. His name is good. Hewas an alternative to Nom for the lynch, but now the dicussion is mostly aboutother players. Did I miss something?
I willhave a look at his posts

Once again dropping names but staying neutral to everyone (even to me, who accused and voted him). Suddenly starts about HO and tries to shift attention to him without actually stating a case or reason for it besides 'he was in contention yesterday'. It looks a bit like he's searching for an easy target.

[Gust Hubb]

Dhenrabi is going to be dangerous addition to our group. I say that we kill him now.

[Gust Hubb]

My God, shouldn't have made this picadillo so hot! I blame it on the gin.

[Gnaw]

It is day 2. 4 hours and 58 minutes remaining


14 players alive: ADemonLlama, Andorion, Blend, Bubba, Coltain93, Dhenrabi, Gust Hubb, HiddenOne, Just Plain Kitsu, Khellendros, Lady Bliss, Macros, Tapper, Tattersail

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to night.

Votes:

1 vote for Khellendros (Tattersail)

1 vote for Tatts: Tapper,

1 vote HO: Andorion,


Players not voted: ADemonLlama, Blend, Bubba, Coltain93, Dhenrabi, Gust Hubb, HiddenOne, Just Plain Kitsu, Khellendros, Lady Bliss, Macros,

[Dhenrabi]

ffs I double-posted and now somehow my last post shows image locations as if they were in my computer

I should go to bed

[Gust Hubb]

Jesus, running out of time. I reading up semi drunk

[Dhenrabi]

I guess pasting it to word and back fucked up something, it also removed spaces for some reason.

[Dhenrabi]

To conclude the rest of my case since I really don't feel like copying all those posts again and doing it properly.

Coltaine continues to go on HO which can be seen as a pretty safe target at this point in the game. No one seems to trust him much and he doesn't seem to be hunting scum himself very proactively.

Aside from Nom and HO, Coltaine is positively neutral on everyone. It's likes he's looking for very specific toes he can thread on without disturbing the rest of the group, all sprinkled with copious amounts of confusion about everything.

He has not had a single interaction that was back-and-forth yet and is pretty much just going with the flow.

vote lynch Coltain93

[Lady Bliss]

I'm back and trying to make decisions. It's been a brutal day at work, and I'm hoping the wine gives me clarity.

[Khellendros]

At this late stage I'm not going to bother looking at HO, as others have done that already anyway. But let's take a look at Kitsu.

What strikes me is that Kitsu's suspicions seem almost all to stem from that initial mechanics discussion. Like, they've been told it's suspicious to do, so by gum they're going to find it suspicious! As such, Kitsu's focus is pretty much all Ando, Tatts, and Macros.

First votes Ando, based on that role talk and interaction.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Andorion, on 26 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

12 hours into the game and the only remarkable thing happening is the lynch train developing on me as I have profaned the sacred mafia alter of "Touch not the game mechanics". Also because people aren't finding anything else voteworthy yet.

Most interesting thing to me? Tatts lightning swift volte face regarding same issue when I was challenged.

Hmmm. Couple that with a divergence from his usual style of play and its quite quite suspicious.

Pointing straight back at Tatts already?

Vote Andorion

Followed fairly swiftly some three hours or so later by a removal, citing a reread has changed their mind.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 26 April 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

ADL
Andorion
Blend
Bliss
Bubba
Coltain93
Dhenrabi
Gusty
HO
Itwas Nom
Khell
Kitsu
Macros
Mess
Sergiej
Tapper
Tatts

Alright, just so I'm not laser focusing on only Tatts, who all hasn't posted yet?

I don't remember seeing much from ADL, nor from Kitsu, but they both do have a few posts... If I'm not remembering much, chances are their input wasn't very spectacular.

Aside from that, seems everyone's had a few things to say, so that's good! Haven't had this active a Day 1 in a M&P in a while, really! Loving it so far!

I actually threw in a vote earlier this morning, but I've been in reading the wall of text. I'm currently of the conclusion that my earlier vote for Ando may have been a gut reaction. I want to read over the wall again, but I'll be in here pretty much all day today.

For now:

Remove Vote

So after that Kitsu moves on to Macros, which is basically where they've stayed more or less since. This is a bit of a reversal, since Kitsu's now going after one of those who attacked Ando, and doing so for attacking Ando. There's more to it than that, Kitsu also mentions Mac's apparent vote-hopping as another reason. But it's still somewhat of an about-face.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 11:39 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Andorion v Tatts looks like the point of contention for Day 1 and admittedly the core of my own reasoning from the previous post, so I went back and looked and how it unfolded (this timeline is limited to the Androion-Tattersail situation):

• Andorion starts speculating about mechanics
• Tatts joins the speculation
• In the next post Macros throws accusation at Andorion because of that speculation
• Khell joins and points fingers at Andorion
• Tattersail votes Andorion
• Nom votes Andorion
• Dhenrabi votes Tatts
• Macros votes Tatts
• HiddenOne comes back to Macros' post that started the whole debate and votes Andorion
• JPK votes Andorion
• Gust votes Tatts
• Dhenrabi removes vote against Tatts
• Tatts removes vote against Andorion and votes Blend
• JPK removes vote against Andorion

So, my attention keeps jumping back into this timeline that Siergiej helpfully put together. The bit that's sticking out to me the strongest are numbers 3&8. Macros was the first one to point a finger at Ando and started that train rolling. A bit of time goes by, and then he jumps onto the newly started Tatts train. A great shot at sowing chaos and creating factions.

Vote Macros

Still on Mac, and suggests he could be linked to...both kills? As I said before, I don't put much stock behind early kill speculation, for exactly this reason: ultimately anyone could be linked to any kill if you generalise enough.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 27 April 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Andorion, on 27 April 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Damn I am way too tired to deal with this right now.

Khell started the train on Nom and Macros, Bliss and LB were in at the end. One of these could quite possibly be scum I guess?

I am going to bed. Maybe things will look better in the morning

I'm going to reference my earlier post and vote here. Macros helped start the Ando train, quickly jumped to the Tatter-Train, and vote-hopped at the end to help get Nom out. He's also a vet and that would make it reasonable for him to target either if the night kills. Mess cause we all know he's a strong player, or Sierg since he's a new unknown.

Just putting it out there for thought.

Is Kitsu the first one to suggest that Siergiej was killed because of the list? Although I suppose they did also use the list themselves earlier (when highlighting Macros for the first time) so perhaps makes sense it would be in their thoughts.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 27 April 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Coltaine93, on 27 April 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

Bubba, on 27 April 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well that sucks 3RI gone

The lynch? Day one is all I can say about that. Everyone is looking at the train, I'm more interested in who wasn't on it. The best hiding place on a train is never getting on in the first place.

Mess? Grudge killing? taking out the helpful players? I'm willing to bet Mess was high up on a few lists.

Sergiej? Who said we should kill/lynch the new players? I remember reading that. Kell?

We have on kill from the killers and one from the vig. Propably. Can a vig also be part of the scum?
Assumption: Vig is from the town
So we have to take for both kills into account why the killers wanted to see them dead and why the vig could have thought that they are killers. If the vig is one of us we could lose another town member by killing him.

I would guess that Mess was killed by the killers, maybe for being to helpful, or being to good as a player.

And Sergiej had good posts. But I can't find a reason for someone to think he was part of the scum. So maybe reverse? Sergiej killed by killers and Mess by vig? Sergiej voted against Gust Hubb. Can't remember why. I will search the post.

A reason for vig to target Sierg was the list. I think it was Bliss who pointed out "scum love lists"

Below, states looking into Tapper, HO, and Bubba. I await the results with much anticipation.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 28 April 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 28 April 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

Ok, so here is the list of people that really need a deeper look: Lady Bliss, ADL, JPK, and Coltaine. I just finished the read through and the below is the best post from Bliss.

Lady Bliss, on 26 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Ok, after skimming through I'm left with the following perceptions:

1) my gut says Tatts is playing way too over the top to be a killer. I could see him more as a symp.
2) Role speculation does stink. I feel like it just helps scum with trying to look like they are participating early, and can be a vehicle for scum to spot roled townies.
3) Khell isn't posting enough.
4) Tapper is posting more than I remember. I'll have to do a post count on the last couple of games to confirm.

TBH I'm leaning towards Khell
I
OR Nom

remove vote

I need to take a deeper dive in looking at posts.

Rarely belligerent and more in for a joke grudge on Nom, Bliss is laying low (which is a pattern with her I think, but this also makes her a dangerous one to ignore)

Lady Bliss, on 27 April 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Macros, on 27 April 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Have done a sort of reread,well up to page 3 properly then a skip through, have work to do.That's page 3, at 40ppp, the way real mean read the forum.My scribbled notes from the first 3 pages yielded me this.If Andorion were silencer, Id vote for him right now for being too smooth. He calmly backtracks to aline his reasoning with other players, and happily joins in the light hearted banter where ever it appears, totally unflustered by attention he has garnered. But he's not, so I won't, for now. My main beef with Andorion was post #27, with less than 50% of players even checked in, 'lets.get srs' and starts role speculation, pro town role speculation.Then when Tatts follows up and says that we all want to be on the same page with game outline (paraphrased) And does a nice little semi reverse sidestep to aline with this a bit more. Not that it helps him, tatts still chases after And anyway.Mess, had the early doors joke on Khell, and has been almost nauseatingly helpful, even pointing out to newbs who usually dies etc, potential set up for survivor framing?? (rampant speculation)Tatts, ah tatts, still numero uno for me, and it nearly.all cycles back to that post on page one, 'lets get everyone on ehte same basic outline early doors (paraphrased) he backs up his suspicions of And by highlighting it was other players (me and khell) that were suspicious of And dorion, as if to say, see other guys picked it up.first, if we lynch him and he's town, well it was their fault (supposition by myself based on a purely theoretical chain of events)And HO. I'll have to go back and find the post by HO that annoyed me, it jumped off the page at me there but tying to multiwiote and stuff on the phone is just a no, hence the stream of discombobulated thoughts.TLDR - I am suspicious of several players for several reasons (it was nom, drive by vote on Andorion noted, page one hoping for a runaway bandwagon fueled by tatts, khell.and macros suspicions possibly? Further investigation required)Notably Andorion, Tatts, Mess and HO. Quick question, is there an easy way to see one players posts in the thread, like 'show me every post macros has made in this thread, only.macros' posts'?

Andorion, on 27 April 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Looking back, back HO seems to have jumped on pretty fast and then backed out again.

Tattersail_, on 27 April 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Remove voteFinished my read up, i'm leaning towards voting for HO, thanks to Sergei's case but also the way HO comes onto the thread, quotes a few people, votes Andorion, says he's finished his DKT style catch up

HiddenOne, on 26 April 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

DKT style catch up^TM is complete, so back to work - I'm out of time to slack off

Yet he added no content, replied to a few quotes with cheeky one liners, and hurtfully didn't mention me once. Sounds bitchy doesn't it, but if you look, Andorion, Messremb, Tapper, Macros, Dhenrabi, had all mentioned me, quoted me and I'd been voted. He doesn't mention Ando's 2 votes on him, nothing mentioned by HO just a little vote on Ando which puts him number 3 on the train. He mentions Macros talking about Ando and mechanics but doesn't mention me talking about them. Skating by as usual. Vote HO

I go to sleep and now have several pages to catch up again... My first thought here is wtf?! Mac mentions HO, then Ando, so then Tatts votes him in rapid succession?

This is odd having Bliss stand up for HO as well. I think she is after Macros (who has seemed a lot more cheery than I remember him), but there is a lot of alarm over HO in both directions. It's a good distraction, but whether it is a distraction away from someone else's guilt or HO's role, I am not sure.



JPK is riding the newb role a bit hard, and I agree with Khell that we cannot just let them slide, even if Tapper ordered only puppies and rainbows for their first game. No, what I am worried about is one of our newbs is getting outside coaching from a more experienced player and just playing up their inexperience (or hiding experience in the case of our sea caterpillar). And now JPK is turning the tables on Khell, an interesting approach to raise ire for the newbie hater...

ADL is usually like this right? Shy, more like a quiet HO? Seriously, there is not much to go off of on the guy. I am really not sure what to do with him, but I don't like him tickling my paranoia...

Gust, I'd love to not be riding this newbie role. Yeah, I pointed out Khell had the first vote of the game placed against him, but that's all I've said in that regard so far. I'm still looking into him. I know he's infamous for being devious around here. I have two current problems: 1- Having to repeat myself multiple times since others just don't seem to be reading my posts. (Example: Lady Bliss asking if I've played before when at the top of the page I clearly stated that I haven't. Same page even!" 2- Macros completely dodging fair questions I've placed his way TWICE now. Without even a mention. Which seems suspicious as hell to me.

I'm also looking deeper into HO, Tapper, and Bubba at the moment. All three are vets that I'm under the impression are usually more active. I was accused of skating day one, but I feel like I still piped up at least as much as these three. Well, maybe not Tapper. The short time Tapper was on, a lot of light seemed to be shed on a couple of subjects.

So from this read up I mostly get the sense that Kitsu is new In seriousness, I suspect that the attachment to Ando and then Mac via stated suspicion of Tatts all stems from that very first conversation about roles and mechanics. There's poking and prodding, but Mac is correct to point out that there's little direct questioning. If they're scum they're playing it well. Or they're just a new townie, hesitant about how to go about things. I don't know, nothing particularly screams at me, but that in itself migh be disconcerting. I might just place my vote here anyway, though I would have liked to have done this earlier and see how they react to pressure. I'm not particularly convinced by the HO case, and Tatts is...well, I can't decide if he's being Tatts or Tatts pretending to be Tatts.

[Andorion]

Dhenrabi, on 29 April 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

To conclude the rest of my case since I really don't feel like copying all those posts again and doing it properly.

Coltaine continues to go on HO which can be seen as a pretty safe target at this point in the game. No one seems to trust him much and he doesn't seem to be hunting scum himself very proactively.

Aside from Nom and HO, Coltaine is positively neutral on everyone. It's likes he's looking for very specific toes he can thread on without disturbing the rest of the group, all sprinkled with copious amounts of confusion about everything.

He has not had a single interaction that was back-and-forth yet and is pretty much just going with the flow.

vote lynch Coltain93

Right, now, your vote makes sense.

See, thats all I wanted.

I omitted your post about removing your vote as to me that important thing was the way you voted at that time - i.e. without a case.

BTW Good morning people!


Now regarding Coltaine, from this case it seems he is really riding his newbie status, no commitment, a lot of wide-eyed surprise - if this is his first game, this is not unusual, but proceeding only on that assumption could be dangerous.

[Gust Hubb]

Whatever did happen to Bubba btw?