[Andorion]

Briar King, on 18 April 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

amphibian, on 18 April 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Very, very bad writing.

It's a hell of a difference from 6-7. I say try 7 still just so YOU LL know what we mean. Damn you blew through those.... You can do the same for 7-8

Ed as I've said a few times. Read them and never read another

Yeah I didn't have much to do on Sunday, got a few hours of reading in.

[Andorion]

Maark Abbott, on 18 April 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

7 & 8 are horrendously written. They're still somehow better than Way of Kinds but don't let that get your hopes up one jot.

Hey Maark Has WoK become your standard for bad writing now?

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 18 April 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 18 April 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

7 & 8 are horrendously written. They're still somehow better than Way of Kinds but don't let that get your hopes up one jot.

Hey Maark Has WoK become your standard for bad writing now?

Absolutely. It's the benchmark for terrible books. So for me to say Dune 7 and 8 are fucking awful, but not as bad as WoK, you get an idea as to how far down the scale they are.

[Andorion]

Finished Chapterhouse Dune

That was some ride. I would say Herbert finished that last book quite nicely

Some very interesting things happened in this book. Who is this enemy the HM are fleeing from? Who are those old people Duncan can see? Are they some special type of Face Dancers?

So the new Mother Superior decides to combine the HM and the BG, Duncan doesn't like this idea, Sheeona agrees and they leave?

Overall I really enjoyed this book. Though 70% of the book had very little action, I think I got to know the BG much better as Herbert took this chance to show how the BG functions.


Now comes the irritating part

About 20% into Hunters of Dune by B. Herbert and Anderson

Wow. You guys were not exaggerating.

Did they even read Chapterhouse? There is this sequence where Miles Teg has to hide his super speed from everybody. Why??? Everybody knows! He demonstrated the speed when he got his memories back

There is a funeral held for BG bodies found in a hidden torture chamber. In Chapterhouse it was specifically explained that the BG do not have ceremonial elaborate funerals

Why is there even a torture chamber of archaic devices? The T Probe the HM have is enough!

The BG no longer talk like the BG. Where are the profound statements I have gotten used to? The energetic, often frenetic inner monologues?

And the proposed resurrection of the original cast. Why???? No really why? This is disgraceful. At some point death should have closure. I didn't want Paul back in Children of Dune. Duke Leto went out spitting in his opponents face. Idaho has all the abilities of Gurney. Idaho and Miles are both Mentats. Why bring Thufir back? Sheeona already has Lady Jessica in her, why a Ghola? In fact wasn't this stated in Heretics that while the Tlix maintain continuity through Gholas the BG use their Memories? And why Alia? Won't that start the Abomination issue all over again?

Apart from these pretty large scale problems, the general writing is bland and boring. I am getting extremely bored reading through this.


So here is the thing. I don't really want to continue. All I want to know is who is this mysterious enemy and what is his motive. Thats it.

[Salt-Man Z]

If I recall (haven't read them, remember) the mysterious enemy has his roots in...Brian and Kevin's Butlerian Jihad prequel trilogy. No, seriously. That's a big reason "7/8 come from dad's notes, we swear" is pretty laughable.

Your complaints about Hunters sound like the same issues I had with the House prequel trilogy (which was otherwise just okay.) Didn't Leto II invent no-ship technology? Nah, people had secret no-ships way back when. Were you intrigued by the "chairdogs" from Heretics? Yeah, they were en vogue thousands of years earlier. Remember how mysterious and weird the Ixians are? Nah, not really, you'll see how normal and boring they really are. Blegh.

[Andorion]

Quote

If I recall (haven't read them, remember) the mysterious enemy has his roots in...Brian and Kevin's Butlerian Jihad prequel trilogy. No, seriously. That's a big reason "7/8 come from dad's notes, we swear" is pretty laughable.

Shit. I just saw how many prequel books they have. Milking the cow for all its worth. There is no way I am reading the prequels.

Quote

Your complaints about Hunters sound like the same issues I had with the House prequel trilogy (which was otherwise just okay.) Didn't Leto II invent no-ship technology? Nah, people had secret no-ships way back when. Were you intrigued by the "chairdogs" from Heretics? Yeah, they were en vogue thousands of years earlier. Remember how mysterious and weird the Ixians are? Nah, not really, you'll see how normal and boring they really are. Blegh.

This is a big problem. Bad writing is one thing. Not everyone can write Frank Herbert level. But this type of gross continuity errors, implausible retcons and story distortions make it so much worse

[Maark Abbott]

SPOILER FOR THE ENTIRE SERIES' ENDING:

Spoiler

The HM are running from the AI which had mankind enslaved in the Butlerian Jihad books

.

Spoiler tagged for those who want to torture themsens with 7&8.

[Andorion]

Ah Maark, that tag is like that one bullet preserved in the gun when the worst comes to the worst. I will use it wisely

[Maark Abbott]

Basically

Spoiler

The whole thing about 'thinking machines are bad' came from Omnius (yes, really), who is the AI I had mentioned.

[amphibian]

I do believe that the Big Bads in the last two books are the Big Bads Frank envisioned. That's about the extent to which I believe the notes are valid/in existence.

The tenor of Frank's works over the years until the 1980s make me believe that he had an idea towards addressing a full collapse of the Spice/oil economy, while fighting a nearly losing effort on a war against the Big Bads. I do not think he'd fully fleshed out how to get to those thematic elements and big ideas in terms of actual plot elements and happenings.

Pretty clear that he felt the time of Paul was over due to the constant revivals of Duncan.

[Andorion]

Read a bit more. This book is bizarre.

What is the Oracle of Time? It has never been mentioned before! In power it seems to be like a God.

The writing is very banal. The dialogue has no profoundness whatsoever. Just people repeating what we already know.

Why is Harkonnen being reborn? What possible purpose could that serve?

Also is Serena Butler a character from the prequels?

[Andorion]

Update: The Show, Dont Tell rule apparently never made its way to the authors. Its just chapter after chapter of dull exposition

Also Pauls blood? WTF? Paul died in Children of Dune and his body was rendered to water immediately. Nullentropy fields did not even exist back then

This is shit

WTF when did Fenring stab him?

This post has been edited by Andorion: 19 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

[Andorion]

Quote

The original worms of Arrakis had been aggressively territorial. After the God Emperor went “back into the sand,” each of the new worms he spawned contained a pearl of his awareness, and they could work together when they wished to do so.

Where the fuck did this come from??

[Andorion]

So I finished this. Now I know what "hateread" means.

This book was so tiresome. Huge events happen but they have little or no impact. And everyone is a facedancer, except the enemy who are Omnius and Erasmus - robots? AI? Where did they come from? I guess the Butlerian Jihad was fought against them? And how did they survive?

So now only Sandworms remain. But so many bizarre developments. Improved Sandworms? Better Spice? WTH is this coming from? They are just making stuff up on the go.

And Paul was most definitely never ever stabbed by Fenring. And when did Feyd Rautha and Fenring's wife have the chance to have a kid? This is absurd

There is no way this book is based on any notes. I am guessing all this weird stuff is coming from books these two wrote.

[Andorion]

I am just so tired....

But FoL is delayed and I read one book, so might as well read the other one.

[Maark Abbott]

I saw your review on Goodreads. Hehehehehe.

So yeah, Omnius is the AI network that the Butlerian Jihad was waged against (who had mankind enslaved and whatnot). Erasmus was the robot who kicked the Jihad off by murdering Miss Butler's kid. I don't recall it being explained how they survived but I guess the time between the BJ and Dune they were travelling through space the old fashioned way and it just took a reyt long time.

[Andorion]

So did Frank also want the Robots to be the villains? It just seemed to me that he was hinting that the enemy the HM were fleeing from would be people pissed off by their aggression.

Also I would have thought that given the tone of the series, the "Ultimate Enemy" would be more of an abstract concept rather than the old "Evil AI" trope

[amphibian]

I think Frank Herbert did indeed want the AI to be the ultimate enemy because the Golden Path Leto II put into place seemed to be about ensuring planetary independence and stability in the event of space-faring collapse.

[amphibian]

My crackpot theory is that FH was going to get Serena either revived or have someone experience Serena's memories of the Butlerian Jihad. This would be done in order to fully reveal the power and the banishment of the Artificial Intelligences to the further reaches of the galaxy/outside the galaxy.

Teg would have been her partner, if that happened, and Idaho and the BG/HM leader would have reconstituted the galaxy in a way that relied on improved spice/artificial spice. Perhaps the AI would even be convinced to coexist peacefully with people.

The Butlerian Jihad is indeed explored in the prequels, but it's badly handled and contradictory in so many spots.

[Maark Abbott]

Badly handled is a kind way to describe it.