[Andorion]

So about a quarter into Sandworms.

Thing is I did most of my reading last night. Throughout today I was really busy with academic stuff. And now I have literally no urge to get back to it. None

I don't even remember what happened. Some really generic stuff I think. The Rabbi was being preachy. Murbella was being militaristic. The Navigators had a meeting? Duncan finds out Teg's abilities - though they already knew!!!!!!!

Also I am sure the Rabbi and Hawat are actually Face Dancers. The way they were trapped and then suddenly appeared again...

So the HM are Tlix females + fish + BG? Ok I guess?

Also if the Omnius robot can literally cast an interdimensional net, then aren't Spaceships and plagues rather prosaic for them?

Why was Harkonnen evil from the beginning? Thats just stupid.

Again with the Haderach thing. I am not even interested in it. After Frank broke the chosen hero trope in Books 2-4 this is just pathetic

[amphibian]

The amazing thing about this debacle is that it really did bring the "revive beloved series after original author's death" gambit to a new low. That takes a tremendous amount of determined effort to disregard what worked in the original series to achieve.

I think the previous low was Zelazny's Amber series, which was revived by Betancourt to very cold reviews and stubborn determination by the publisher to keep going.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 20 April 2016 - 05:16 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 20 April 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

So about a quarter into Sandworms.

Thing is I did most of my reading last night. Throughout today I was really busy with academic stuff. And now I have literally no urge to get back to it. None

I don't even remember what happened. Some really generic stuff I think. The Rabbi was being preachy. Murbella was being militaristic. The Navigators had a meeting? Duncan finds out Teg's abilities - though they already knew!!!!!!!

Also I am sure the Rabbi and Hawat are actually Face Dancers. The way they were trapped and then suddenly appeared again...

So the HM are Tlix females + fish + BG? Ok I guess?

Also if the Omnius robot can literally cast an interdimensional net, then aren't Spaceships and plagues rather prosaic for them?

Why was Harkonnen evil from the beginning? Thats just stupid.

Again with the Haderach thing. I am not even interested in it. After Frank broke the chosen hero trope in Books 2-4 this is just pathetic

In the BJ prequels, Atreides was the evil one and Harkonnen was the good guy. Because arbitrary inversion is well good.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 20 April 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

The amazing thing about this debacle is that it really did bring the "revive beloved series after original author's death" gambit to a new low. That takes a tremendous amount of determined effort to disregard what worked in the original series to achieve.

I think the previous low was Zelazny's Amber series, which was revived by Betancourt to very cold reviews and stubborn determination by the publisher to keep going.

Thing is, it didn't have to be this bad. Sanderson did a stellar job finishing WoT, Christopher Tolkien did an ok job with LotR. All BH needed was a better author than KJA

I am increasingly convinced that BH and KJA even wrote these sequels to popularise their own prequels. Otherwise the numerous references to prequels makes no sense.

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 20 April 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Sanderson did a stellar job finishing WoT

One of those 'where did it go so wrong with his own works' moments, yeah

[Andorion]

Finished this piece of shit

Seriously I did not think it oculd get worse than 7, but it did. Its so much worse.

First there was the ridiculous saboteur controversy. The Rabbi was caught out in a lie to Yueh. There are two Mentats abroad. They could not pair that with the fact the Rabbi and Yueh had been missing in a FACE DANCER planet? When Hawat Dancer was exposed, they still did not catch on? Did they magically stop becoming Mentats? Also why did Dancer Hawat try to save Leto? Makes no sense.

Why did the Baron ghola have the Alia voice in him and why was he evil from the beginning? It was specifically written in this book itself that upbringing decides the character of a Ghola.

Why was there even a Murbella and sisterhood storyline? They did nothing in the end.

But all of this pales before the atrocity that is the ending.

People talk about deus ex machina. This book is the grandfather of all deus ex machina. Its the deus ex machina others aspire to be.

There are literally 4 deus ex machina at the end

1. The Oracle just randomly turns up and banishes Omnius to another universe. WTF? If she could do that, why hadn't she already done it? She basically resolves the final conflict herself. Why did we have the other characters again?

2. The great Face Dancer conspiracy - Erasmus pushes a button - they are all dead. Boom. Gone. Just like that.

3. Paul gets up, looks at Duncan: "Duncan, you are the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach!". Boom, Duncan is the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach. He gets more superpowers. Just like that.

4. What about all the trillions of robots left? Erasmus just gives them to Duncan and dies. Why? Who the fuck knows?

Smaller idiocies:

On Dune, giant sandworms randomly appear. Because of course they do.

A few hundred BG and soldiers put up a credible fight against superninja Face Dancers and killer robots on their home turf - a moving city which could have literally crushed all opposition itself. \

Leto merges with a worms, they tunnel through solid metal. Note that in Dune 1 they can't go through plain rock.

In the end, Jessica goes back to Caladan with Leto - happy ending compulsory!


Urgh...reading these two books have been the worst reading experience of my life. There is a bright side though - almost anything will seem good after this.

[Maark Abbott]

Yeah I really feel as though I should have done more to shield you from these.

[Andorion]

I am trying to think of these last two books as a character-forming educative experience. Basic lesson - don't read books if multiple people tell you they are shit

And no, I am never trying another BH KJA book again. Lots of perfectly good books to read.

The thing about the original 6 is that you can stop at 2 or 3, both have good endings. But if you read 4, you have to read 5 and 6. And these two are really good

This post has been edited by Andorion: 21 April 2016 - 05:47 PM

[JPK]

So I have an important question for you. Do you feel that reading those last two tainted the whole experience for you? Or can you separate them from FH's work?

[Andorion]

The Incredible Kitsu, on 21 April 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

So I have an important question for you. Do you feel that reading those last two tainted the whole experience for you? Or can you separate them from FH's work?

I can quite easily separate the books. The reading experience is entirely different.

Firstly these two books retcon a lot of stuff and keep on referring to the prequels.

Secondly FH dealt more in big ideas rather than action scenes. Narrative, dialogue and story were geared towards this aspect. This is clearly absent in the later books.

Thirdly the characters and their interactions were more profound and carried greater depth with FH.

[Binder of Demons]

Just reading your summary of the final book there ANDO, and i realise I had completely blocked out what had gone on in it. I just remembered it being shit. But when you lay out all those plot points together. Wow. That is a whole new world of shit. The brain is a wondrous thing in how it tries to protect us from ourselves. Thankfully the difference from Frank Herbert's Dune books to the later literary atrocities is so vast that it's easy to seperate them in your mind.

The lesson I learned was to never touch another KJA book.

You should have listened to us.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

With Denis Villeneuve's adaptation right around the corner I think it's OK if I bump this thread.

I started reading the Dune books last year after reading a statement from Villeneuve were he called Dune "Star Wars for adults", which really piqued my interest as I am a huge Star Wars fan who was looking for a space opera like Star Wars but with a more mature tone, and Dune also has the advantage of being one of the many works that influenced Star Wars. I had also finished reading the MBotF and in the preface to GotM Erikson mentioned Dune as an influence on the MBotF.

I am currently halfway through Children of Dune, and I must say these books are a real delight.

The first book is the best known and the most successful one in terms of sales and critical reception, which is a real shame, because IMO the story gets better.

I really enjoyed the first book, but if there's one part I don't like it is the dinner scene. Seriously, that part drags the book down to a crawl, and I nearly fell asleep reading that part. A lot of people like to talk about how cunning and evil Baron Harkonnen is, but he only appears sporadically, and maybe I have grown too cynical, but I didn't find his actions particularly reprehensible. Another thing that is frequently mentioned is the Baron's homosexuality, which many argue is problematic for modern audiences, but I didn't find it that big of a deal. Gurney's reunion with Paul marks the only time I was brought to tears reading a book. Only one part made my blood boil with anger, and that's when they mention Paul and Chani's firstborn son having his foreskin mutilated (I refuse to use the C word for I consider it far too elegant a word for such a degenerate practice), and the thought that it might still be done tens of thousands of years into the future stings me, but I digress. One thing is clear though, is that Frank Herbert was strongly influenced by the movie Lawrence of Arabia, and I'm pretty sure Anthony Quinn's portrayal of Auda Abu Tayi was the basis for Stilgar.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

Briar King, on 03 September 2021 - 09:51 PM, said:

If your only on CoD how do you know about Fish Speakers and other such things?

I don’t remember a circumcision bit in.

Going to make me pull this shit out again to and be back to 3 reads a day ain’t ya?

I know about the Fish Speakers from Quinn's YouTube channel.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

Briar King, on 03 September 2021 - 10:24 PM, said:

Link? I’m unfamiliar with that Quinn cat.

The spoilers don’t bother you? Man I don’t even want to know what color shirt someone is wearing from someone else when I’m engaged in new works.

In the case of Dune no, because Frank Herbert died before he could complete the saga, and having watched the 1984 film adaptation made it remarkably easy for me to navigate the first book, and since Herbert's story will remain unfinished, I figured what the hell. Besides, knowing where the story is headed hasn't detracted from the experience at all, and has in fact enriched them. There's a difference between reading about a story and experiencing the story itself.

On that note I refuse to read or even acknowledge Brian Herbert's and Kevin J. Anderson's Dune books.

As for Quinn, his YouTube channel is called Quinn's Ideas. Check it out, it's pretty good. Primarily focused on Dune, but he also discusses ASoIaF, Foundation, Hyperion and the works of H.P. Lovecraft.

This post has been edited by ContrarianMalazanReader: 03 September 2021 - 11:46 PM

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

The Dune universe is quite interesting from a technological standpoint.

Interstellar travel has been achieved, but this civilization has dispensed with anything digital such as computers and automated machines, relying mostly on analog technology. Firearms and firearm protection have advanced to the point that humans have gone back to melee combat.

About the Butlerian Jihad, I sometimes wonder if what really happened is that humans simply grew tired of the many comforts their advanced technology offered and decided to smash all computers.

This post has been edited by ContrarianMalazanReader: 04 September 2021 - 06:27 PM

[Traveller]

I just finished it for the first time.

I enjoyed the writing style and the world building, its amazing just how it feels like it was written far more recently than it was.

I did find the words and language of the religious aspects a bit jarring as Herbet uses existing terms rather than making his own; the circumcision comment also threw me a bit.

But mainly, the continuous reference to a Jihad. Paul has visions of this happening in the future, tries to stop it, then realises whether he lives or dies it will happen anyway - but if I'm assuming correctly and he is basically lined up as the next Emperor at the end of the book, who is the Jihad against?

As I said I did enjoy it, but it's one of those classics that has been so referenced and built upon by successive authors that I felt like I'd seen it all before.

Two quotes made me happy as there seemed to be a clear link with Malazan, to me at least. When the Fremen first attack and surprise the troops with their efficacy, there's a real 'who are these Malazans?' moment..

'It was the Fremen who took off in that captured ‘thopter, Hawat thought. He deliberately sacrificed himself to get that carrier. Great Mother! What are these Fremen?
“A reasonable exchange,” said the Fremen beside Hawat.'

..just made me think of the Bridgeburners 'always an even exchange'.

Which was closely followed by
'First up, last off,” Paul said.'

[amphibian]

Jihad is a righteous struggle and has a general idea of being unique to each person, although often united in a shared goal. Paul's personal jihad is against the system that broke his family and keeps the people and the planet of Arrakis as powerless.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

My favourite quote from Dune Messiah:

"Written constitutions become the ultimate tyranny."