[Andorion]

Since I am reading the first 6 Dune books back to back, I thought they deserved their own thread. Dune 1 is phenomenal so far and I may have somethings to say/ask.


There will be open spoilers, but only uptil the point I have read







Dune

So Doctor Yueh just attacked Leto and fit him with a poisonous tooth.


Impressions uptil now


I really really like Herbert's prose and descriptions. It feels very compact yet oddly beautiful. It feels good to read.

Herbert seems to be doing a really good job of the characters. I have a fairly good grasp on Paul, Jessica and Leto.

Leto Atreides is so charismatic. He gives off the air of a combination of Eddard Stark and Stannis Baratheon. He has the leadership, heart and family affinity of Ned and the hard ruthlessness of Stannis. I think he is going to die, which is a pity because I could read entire books about him described from the PoV of his followers.

The combination of Jessica and Paul and the prophecies on Arrakis is highly entertaining. It seems that most of the prophecies matching Paul seems to be result of:
1. A Bene Gesserit having a son
2. A Bene Gesserit training that son in their ways
3. Paul being very intelligent and quick witted.

In this context Kynes astonishment is quite entertaining.

One thing that strikes me is that the Harkonnens seem to have at least some sympathisers within the Imperial faction. If the Imperium itself is bent against the Atreides, I am getting a strong feeling that the eventual resolution of the storyline will be something like breaking the system

The setting as a whole deserves more comment


The House system and the titles give an impressively feudal air to a science fiction setting. I can see why some have called Dune Science Fantasy.

The whole post-science, slightly dystopian-post apocalyptic idea is very interesting. In fact it reminds me of Warhammer 40000 where different groups having different types of knowledge have all split off and now guard it jealously

The Bene Gesserit idea is very interesting. They have some mental powers and some futuresight? Not sure. Clearly they have a more holistic knowledge of science

Arrakis, the Spice, the Worms are fascinating. The Duke's comment about raising Fremen troops strikes me as very important and a very good idea.

What is Spice?I hope this will be cleared up in this book.

Thats all for now

[amphibian]

What do you make of the epigraphs before each chapter?

[Salt-Man Z]

Andorion, on 29 March 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

What is Spice?I hope this will be cleared up in this book.

Like I said earlier, it's been 20 years since I've read these, but this will get answered--by the end of the first trilogy at the latest.

[Garak]

Dune really influenced a lot of things. 40k actually took a lot of inspiration from Dune. Glad to see you're reading this awesome series.

[Andorion]

An extremely frustrating day of long commutes and longer waiting periods for people who didn't show up... but the upside is that I got read Dune throughout!

So I am nearing the end of Part 2, where Feyd Rautha's birthday is being celebrated through gladiatorial combat.

Lots of things have happened but some really stuck out for me.

The logic of Yueh's betrayal: Help me out a bit here, I am not entirely sure I followed his thought processes. The Harkonnen's had captured his wife and were torturing her. The agreement was that in return for his betrayal of Leto they would kill her, freeing her from her misery.

But Yueh clearly believed that they had already killed her/or would break the deal as he booby trapped Leto with the poison tooth.

So why did he go through with it? Was there not a stronger chance of revenge by allying himself with Leto? He could have revealed the entire scheme, Leto could have turned the ambush and the Harkonenns would have been defeated/embarrassed.


The change in Paul: About the time they were in the Stilltent, Paul makes some sort of cognitive leap and starts to experience the first in a long line of visions. Am I reading the text correctly where I interpret this as originating from a mixture of concentrated Spice and his Bene Gesserit training? Because Paul can clearly see decision nexii and he has an extremely heightened awareness

Also how strong is Paul? The Sardaukar are superior to average House troops, the Fremen beat Sardaukar with ease, and Paul killed a Fremen without too much trouble. Has he been that well trained? How much of it is his mental power?

Also recently I think there is a definite clash of wills between Paul and Jessica. Paul does not want to embrace the violent future he sees, but Jessica is already thinking in terms of suitable wives and the eligibility of the Fremen as a military force


Regarding Arrakis in general, the Fremen refer to Worms as Makers and they also mention Little Makers. My theory is Little Makers are tiny worms. They create the Spice probably by consuming sand and minerals and excreting a chemically transformed substance called Spice. The Spice areas are either mating or feeding areas for Great Worms which explains their affinity for them

The Fremen harvesting water is very interesting, but what about the stories of scarce groundwater? Why is water so scarce and why does it need to be husbanded? Is it an ingredient in Spice and Worms consume it?

This post has been edited by Andorion: 29 March 2016 - 03:38 PM

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 29 March 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

When you get to bk 2 I ll link a character from the 2nd mini series. I started reading the bks just a few weeks before the show aired and I had the biggest boner for character/actor.

Glad you always seem to enjoy my recos to you.

Yeah we do seem to share tastes, don't we?

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 29 March 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

What do you make of the epigraphs before each chapter?

The epigraphs are very interesting and they seem to point to a very prominent future for Paul, but I am already wondering how badly have events been distorted in future histories?

This Princess Irrulan - probably Bene Gesserit, probably Paul's future consort?

[amphibian]

Briar King, on 29 March 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

It's a planet wide desert. Water is life and therefore valuable.

You ll see in time

This is not the whole answer.

Think of Arrakis as the Middle East. The Atreides and the other Great Houses ruling over the planet are the imperialism brought down to a manageable scale.

Herbert starts wondering about ecology and transformation in terms of economic ability and whether the impact of something like Lawrence of Arabia could be scaled upwards into a fantasy setting. He's very clear to keep most of the achievements grounded in a way that isn't Deus ex machina or character/plot contrivance.

[acesn8s]

Andorion, on 29 March 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

The logic of Yueh's betrayal: Help me out a bit here, I am not entirely sure I followed his thought processes. The Harkonnen's had captured his wife and were torturing her. The agreement was that in return for his betrayal of Leto they would kill her, freeing her from her misery.

But Yueh clearly believed that they had already killed her/or would break the deal as he booby trapped Leto with the poison tooth.

So why did he go through with it? Was there not a stronger chance of revenge by allying himself with Leto? He could have revealed the entire scheme, Leto could have turned the ambush and the Harkonenns would have been defeated/embarrassed.

The Harkonnens had Yueh's wife for a long time. He couldn't take the chance, so he went for what he considered the best chance of getting the Baron.

Quote

The change in Paul: About the time they were in the Stilltent, Paul makes some sort of cognitive leap and starts to experience the first in a long line of visions. Am I reading the text correctly where I interpret this as originating from a mixture of concentrated Spice and his Bene Gesserit training? Because Paul can clearly see decision nexii and he has an extremely heightened awareness.

Yes, yes, and more.

Quote

Also how strong is Paul? The Sardaukar are superior to average House troops, the Fremen beat Sardaukar with ease, and Paul killed a Fremen without too much trouble. Has he been that well trained? How much of it is his mental power?

Also recently I think there is a definite clash of wills between Paul and Jessica. Paul does not want to embrace the violent future he sees, but Jessica is already thinking in terms of suitable wives and the eligibility of the Fremen as a military force.

It don't think he has super-human strength. Certainly he's not stronger than a juiced up, Sardaukar. He's just a much better fighter because of his training (both military and Bene Gesserit), plus prescience is a nice plus.

Quote

Regarding Arrakis in general, the Fremen refer to Worms as Makers and they also mention Little Makers. My theory is Little Makers are tiny worms. They create the Spice probably by consuming sand and minerals and excreting a chemically transformed substance called Spice. The Spice areas are either mating or feeding areas for Great Worms which explains their affinity for them

The Fremen harvesting water is very interesting, but what about the stories of scarce groundwater? Why is water so scarce and why does it need to be husbanded? Is it an ingredient in Spice and Worms consume it?

RAFO.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 29 March 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

Briar King, on 29 March 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

It's a planet wide desert. Water is life and therefore valuable.

You ll see in time

This is not the whole answer.

Think of Arrakis as the Middle East. The Atreides and the other Great Houses ruling over the planet are the imperialism brought down to a manageable scale.

Herbert starts wondering about ecology and transformation in terms of economic ability and whether the impact of something like Lawrence of Arabia could be scaled upwards into a fantasy setting. He's very clear to keep most of the achievements grounded in a way that isn't Deus ex machina or character/plot contrivance.

I got the Middle Eastern analogy pretty easily. He even uses words like Hajj and Hajira. He also uses other words, like the BG lady said about infusing something in Feyd Rutha called Prana Bindu. Now I am not sure what language Herbert was drawing on, but if its a Sanskrit derivation Prana means Life and Bindu means Drop. Still not sure what the BG lady meant though.

I find the ecological theme extremely interesting, but what is not clear is the harping on the theme of Jihad. Spice addicted people cannot leave Arrakis, so the only way the Fremen would be an effective fighting force would be if Paul could carry around a huge amount of Spice. And that creates a really vulnerable supply line. Also I would have thought that the monopoly of the Space Guild precluded in large scale warfare. I mean without their cooperation you can't even have interplanetary transport much less combat.

[amphibian]

The crux is indeed that the Spice Must Flow.

Figured out the Nasser/Pan-Arabism/Israeli parallels and skepticism yet?

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 30 March 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

The crux is indeed that the Spice Must Flow.

Figured out the Nasser/Pan-Arabism/Israeli parallels and skepticism yet?

Nasser? Not really getting that analogy.

What I am more interested in is the Missionary Protectiva of the BG which seems to have seeded Arrakis with messianic elements. Why? Something about Arrakis or do they do this on a lot of planets? The BG have the Ksiwatz Haderach (Spelling?) prophecy but does that refer to Arrakis itself?

Regarding the broader political elements I am not so much reminded of Israel as British/French colonialism pre 1939

[amphibian]

Substitute a wet Arrakis for Zionism.

Look at what Nasser represented before the 67 war and then look at Stilgar.

[Andorion]

Finished Dune.

Holy.. Shit

Now that's an ending.

So this book more or less exploded in the last third (not that it was slow before)

First, the one thing that confused me, why did the Empire suddenly descend on Arrakis? I thought the Harkonnen plan was to demonise Rabban and then bring in Feyd Rutha? Did that backfire? Was the disruption in Spice delivery enough to bring the Emperor down?

Another minor gripe - Herbert gave Feyd Rautha quite a lot of importance, only to have him be stabbed by Paul

Anyway... that last part

Gurney and Jessica almost had a Tavore and Felisin moment

Paul losing his child, his marriage to Irulan...these things are bound to have family consequences

Am I the only one utterly creeped out by Alia?

So Paul is Emperor? Or Regent?

Doesn't Paul having the Imperial shares, combined with his Atreides heritage, and his domination of the Space Guild break the House system completely?Is this the beginning of galactic conquest?

I don't get why the BG Reverend Mother is so angry at Paul. He is what their breeding program have been trying for, right? So why be angry now? Because he is independent? But how could somebody with his powers not be?

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 30 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Substitute a wet Arrakis for Zionism.

Look at what Nasser represented before the 67 war and then look at Stilgar.

But Stilgar wants a Wet Arrakis, while Nasser opposed the Jewish state and was for pan-Arab unity and development right?

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 30 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

First, the one thing that confused me, why did the Empire suddenly descend on Arrakis? I thought the Harkonnen plan was to demonise Rabban and then bring in Feyd Rutha? Did that backfire? Was the disruption in Spice delivery enough to bring the Emperor down?

The Spice Must Flow.

A sudden and violent seizure of the only planet producing Spice by an unknown group = Emperor stepping in to bring the Sardaukar with him. I liked the Janissary paralells, although they didn't go full on castration with the Sardaukar.

Another minor gripe - Herbert gave Feyd Rautha quite a lot of importance, only to have him be stabbed by Paul

Quote

Am I the only one utterly creeped out by Alia?

Nope. She's the scariest thing in the books because she never had a choice to be anything other than the weirdo, hyper-aware, imprisoned multitudes, near-insane being she is.

Quote

So Paul is Emperor? Or Regent?

Doesn't Paul having the Imperial shares, combined with his Atreides heritage, and his domination of the Space Guild break the House system completely?Is this the beginning of galactic conquest?

Read onwards into the series.

Quote

I don't get why the BG Reverend Mother is so angry at Paul. He is what their breeding program have been trying for, right? So why be angry now? Because he is independent? But how could somebody with his powers not be?

The Bene Gesserit were indeed breeding for a Kwisatz Haderach - but he came one generation early and escaped from their control. They were breeding all of the Noble Houses, in particular, the Atreides and the Harkonnens, to produce a Kwisatz Haderach. Generations and generations of slow culling and improving of the genetic potential for mental and physical abilities were put in by thousands of really bitter, yet really hopeful women - and the culmination happened one generation too early because Jessica fell in love with Leto.

That's why she's angry at Paul - because his mother fucked over the Bene Gesserit by accident and never made good for it.

Andorion, on 30 March 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

But Stilgar wants a Wet Arrakis, while Nasser opposed the Jewish state and was for pan-Arab unity and development right?

Stilgar isn't an exact parallel to Nasser, but the charismatic leader who wanted mostly to overthrow the old, bad kings and impose a better way of life for all is exactly what Nasser's public image was at the time of publication. Remember that Nasser nationalized the Suez canal in order to get the Aswan Dam built - which changed the water systems of Egypt forever. Nasser's opposition to Israel was kinda political in that he didn't seem to mind Israel's existence, but had to play the anti-Israel politics with the other big Arab leaders in order to maintain his own popularity at home. Before the 67 war, Nasser was basically trying not to fight Israel and thought he was safe from any pre-emptive attacks because the US and the USSR both assured him that Israel wouldn't do that. His rival, General Amer, is sort of the reason why Egypt still went close to a war footing and pushed the Israelis to go pre-emptive and mess up Nasser's plans.

The twists Herbert put in of Stilgar's huge connection to Kynes and the willingness to step aside for Paul complicate things, but I really do believe Herbert took a ton of Nasser and put him into Stilgar, although he'd put in the Nasser before the 67 war because this book was written between ~1962-1965 (1965 being the year of the novel publication).

[Maark Abbott]

I don't know if Jessica did it entirely accidentally - she chose to conceive a child against the wishes of the BG (IIRC she was meant to have a girl) but had Paul instead. So she made a conscious choice that happened to have massive repercussions.

[amphibian]

Maark Abbott, on 30 March 2016 - 07:50 PM, said:

I don't know if Jessica did it entirely accidentally - she chose to conceive a child against the wishes of the BG (IIRC she was meant to have a girl) but had Paul instead. So she made a conscious choice that happened to have massive repercussions.

She knew the Bene Gesserit had an interest in the outcome - as per their order - but I think the text makes it clear that the Bene Gesserit plan for producing many Kwisatz Haderach hopefuls, rather than just one. The testing for Kwisatz Haderach apparently gets a ton of nearly-theres/failures, so having several candidates going every so often is a design feature.

Thus, Jessica didn't know she'd made such a transformation to the long held plains of the Bene Gesserit by picking a boy over a girl, but she did know he'd be a candidate and that the Gesserit were close. She hoped Paul would be the Kwisatz, but I speculate that she didn't know that the Kwisatz would so radically change the plans of everyone else. She calculated that he'd do what the Kwisatz was supposed to do - and thus it would be an Atreides leading the way, as Leto, her love, would want it.

Fwooosh. It all changed.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 30 March 2016 - 09:38 PM

[amphibian]

The Lynch movie and the SciFi mini series (both of them) are entirely worth watching - for very different reasons.

The Lynch movie is kind of a mess, but a glorious, highly stylized mess that compresses a ton of the book down into something that works, but not all the way. The SciFi series is a loving and well done (if low budgeted) tribute. Pretty good cast, smart scripts, and it works. Plus Daniela Amavia is really hot (and eventually became a director and real estate developer).

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 30 March 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Hmm mmmm boing BOING!
Just going ahead with the link since he's done and already mentioned Alia.

http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0526749/

Creepiest child ever? LoL!