[Andorion]

Started Dune Messiah, two chapters in.

Ok, Herbert seems to have flipped everything. Paul's rule is a tyranny where people are killed for dissent and this group of plotters are planning something.

Also this and the rest of the books seem shorter compared to the first one

[Salt-Man Z]

Andorion, on 01 April 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

Also this and the rest of the books seem shorter compared to the first one

I was curious, so a quick Google search brought up this, which jives with the quick glance I gave my own copies:

Word Count:

Dune – 192,000
Dune Messiah – 74,000
Children of Dune – 151,000
God Emperor of Dune – 139,000
Heretics of Dune – 166,000
Chapterhouse Dune – 143,000

[Andorion]

I am about halfway into Dune Messiah, way too rushed for details but, all I can say is definitely slower than Dune, hope Paul keeps things straight.

[Salt-Man Z]

Briar King, on 02 April 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:

Yea I think I lost a post cause I know I had said bk 2 was the weakest imo though I still enjoyed it.

Yeah, you just said it two posts in a row.

[Andorion]

So I am nearing the end of Dune Messiah, only the last quarter left to go.

This book is significantly slower that the previous one as its about Paul trying to cope with the consequences of being Muad'dib.

I really loved the conversations between Idaho and Alia and Idaho and Paul. This book is definitely heavier on the philosophy.

At one point Paul mentions the thousands of worlds his forces sterilised. What I don't understand is why such a huge war was necessary. Surely he could have gained complete control of the Empire with only a fraction of the effort?

[Maark Abbott]

That would be down to the Emperor's previous decree.

"The House which controls the Spice controls Dune. There are no set territories, no rules of engagement."

[Andorion]

Finished Dune Messiah

The ending left me feeling a bit conflicted.

Firstly I knew that this book would have to end by doing something drastic. 80% of the book was Paul/Alia/Stilgar agonizing over the different problems of being a prophet emperor/super priestess/huge administrator. Clearly some resolution was necessary.

That said, I did not understand a lot of Paul's actions.

1. Why bring the whole dwarf/envoy/BG mess into the desert for the birthing?
2. Why couldn't Paul see the future of the dwarf?
3. I thought the whole plot of offering Paul Chani back as a Ghola in return for everything kind of weak.
4. Paul knows the BG are hostile to him. Why does he allow them to exist? He has killed billions. Why not more?
5. I thought the ending of Paul going into the desert a bit cliched. It felt too mystical and open ended.
6. What is this Tarot people are talking about? Was not there in book 1.

Having said that, the birth itself, and Paul looking through the eyes of his children was awesome. Alia is a quite interesting character and I want more of her.
This book felt like it was written exclusively to serve as a flipside to Dune. While I enjoyed it, it is nowhere close to the original Dune.


Started Children of Dune.

So far we have had a Stilgar, an Alia, a couple of Twins, and one Jessica PoV with a tiger interlude on Salusa Secundus.

This book is very interesting so far. Stilgar's PoV was creepy The way he actually stood there and thought of treachery and murder was chilling. The twin PoVs are very interesting. Prescient, confident, yet insecure. Jessica is the most interesting so far. She clearly has an agenda, but how is she going to push it? Does she remember how she could not control Paul in Dune? The kids are quite mature enough to resist her.

The notes about the backfiring ecological experiment are very interesting. The whole story breaks down without Spice, so clearly this will gain more importance in the narrative.

I don't think I understand the Abomination concept. Alia was considered one because she was BG from before her birth. But now Leto is worrying about becoming one. I thought he already was like Alia. Would like some clarification on this.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 05 April 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

Can't really. You ll have the answers to last part in bk3.

I think you ll enjoy 3. Do you pic Alia as the woman I linked who plays her in mini?

The Stilgar thing was indeed twisted.

What about my Book 2 questions? I thought Paul was being irrational

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 05 April 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

That said, I did not understand a lot of Paul's actions.

1. Why bring the whole dwarf/envoy/BG mess into the desert for the birthing?
2. Why couldn't Paul see the future of the dwarf?
3. I thought the whole plot of offering Paul Chani back as a Ghola in return for everything kind of weak.
4. Paul knows the BG are hostile to him. Why does he allow them to exist? He has killed billions. Why not more?
5. I thought the ending of Paul going into the desert a bit cliched. It felt too mystical and open ended.
6. What is this Tarot people are talking about? Was not there in book 1.

Having said that, the birth itself, and Paul looking through the eyes of his children was awesome. Alia is a quite interesting character and I want more of her.
This book felt like it was written exclusively to serve as a flipside to Dune. While I enjoyed it, it is nowhere close to the original Dune.

Paul's plotline and most of your questions make much more sense after you read the rest of the series. Essentially, there is something big coming and Paul decides that he is not going to pay the costs to get through it. He doesn't have Chani and the others who got him through the events of Dune anymore. Thus the offer of gholam-Chani is tempting, but not to his liking.

The Tarot thing is a mechanism ordinary people figured out to have limited prescience/future predictions. This muddles up what Paul and the others see because most of the time, future seers cannot see each other/get disturbed by other future seers. So a few hundred thousand/million of rinky dinky seers ends up affecting Paul significantly.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 05 April 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

Andorion, on 05 April 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

That said, I did not understand a lot of Paul's actions.

1. Why bring the whole dwarf/envoy/BG mess into the desert for the birthing?
2. Why couldn't Paul see the future of the dwarf?
3. I thought the whole plot of offering Paul Chani back as a Ghola in return for everything kind of weak.
4. Paul knows the BG are hostile to him. Why does he allow them to exist? He has killed billions. Why not more?
5. I thought the ending of Paul going into the desert a bit cliched. It felt too mystical and open ended.
6. What is this Tarot people are talking about? Was not there in book 1.

Having said that, the birth itself, and Paul looking through the eyes of his children was awesome. Alia is a quite interesting character and I want more of her.
This book felt like it was written exclusively to serve as a flipside to Dune. While I enjoyed it, it is nowhere close to the original Dune.

Paul's plotline and most of your questions make much more sense after you read the rest of the series. Essentially, there is something big coming and Paul decides that he is not going to pay the costs to get through it. He doesn't have Chani and the others who got him through the events of Dune anymore. Thus the offer of gholam-Chani is tempting, but not to his liking.

The Tarot thing is a mechanism ordinary people figured out to have limited prescience/future predictions. This muddles up what Paul and the others see because most of the time, future seers cannot see each other/get disturbed by other future seers. So a few hundred thousand/million of rinky dinky seers ends up affecting Paul significantly.

Ah ok, the Tarot makes a lot more sense now. Thanks

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 05 April 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

Ohhh watching it now and Alia just showed up. Yummy

BK I have a to-watch list thats pretty big, I have problems watching tv and movie stuff anyway, I get tired fast, and you are really not helping!

[amphibian]

The Dune movie and miniseries are very much worth watching. Maybe not highest priority, but they are genuinely fun and interesting. Briar King is right in saying that they should be on your long list of things to watch.

Briar King, on 06 April 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Am I remembering the thing with dwarf right Amp? They came out of the same vat and it essentially shielded him.

Yes, Bijaz and Hayt came out of the same axlotl tank and that has some effect - as well as the manner in which the Tleilaxu designed the two to work.

[Andorion]

Finished Children of Dune


This book was so strange.

Firstly the children don't really seem to have very distinct personalities of their own. They just seem to say thing and to do things

The Abomination concept was explained but it wasn't really clarified why everybody thought Alia would be one from the beginning. I mean did Jessica even try to warn her?

Paul coming back as the Preacher was bad. His death in Book 2 was suitably vague and poetic for someone of his nature and the explicit spelling out of why he was back just ruined everything for me. He would have served far better as a legend in the shadows. The ambiguity of the Preacher should have been retained.

The situation at Jacurutu was a mess. Who was in command there? Halleck? Namri? Why didn't either Halleck or Jessica even try to check if Namri had other loyalties?

The Tiger plot was stupid. It relied heavily on the kids being outside. What if they refused to leave a Sietch? Those tigers would be wormfood pretty fast.

Leto's transformation just came out of nowhere. He assimilates the sandtrout and then he becomes a literal superhero? How?

[Binder of Demons]

It's been years since I read Children of Dune, but i wouldn't really argue with you on those comments above.

If I remember correctly, people can be divided on what they thought of GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE, but I know that I actually enjoyed it on a reread several years ago. It is very strange compared to the other books, but interesting for how it resets the board, and allows the Dune story to jump off in an new direction.

[Andorion]

I have some other general comments

There seems to be a continuous subtext that humanity is stagnating and will die out without the guidance of a strong ruler. What is not being stated here is that the stagnation comes from in world elements that nobody tries to remove. The Butlerian Jihad removed high technology or shoved it into the hands of secretive guilds like the BG, the Tleixacu etc. Space travel became a monopoly of the spacers guild. So with science and innovation removed from everyday life stagnation is obvious. Yet nobody addresses this.

Why was there so high a death toll in the Jihad? Paul effectively owned the Spacer guild through his control of Spice. So there couldn't have been any space battles. Who would you fight? And what type of an idiot of a planetary population would resist a huge army that controlled all of space? The death toll should have been a fraction of what it was.

I have also started God Emperor of Dune and am not at the point where Leto is travelling to the Festival

Why has Leto ruled for 3500 years? What was the point? He has enforced peace, yes, but done seemingly little to address the issues of stagnation.

There are some really strange comments about women and homosexuals. The justification for women in the army is stupid. That they maybe martially equal is not even brought up/ And something about homosexuals never maturing? After three books, where is this coming from?

Also why does he keep on needing new Duncans? What function do they serve?

[amphibian]

Keep going.

The children are kinda like Alia, trapped in their destinies, while Paul escaped his -only to experience massive regrets.

[amphibian]

As for the massive death counts, Paul and Leto quickly lost control of the military actions on each planet. The Fremen and eventually the true believers ended up massacring and converting by the sword instead of knocking off the top as per the original plans.

At the time of God Emperor, Leto is essentially driven by the forces of the Empire in a manner similar to what the old Emperor Shaddam was mired in, but he has a few tricks and the benefit of an extraordinary life span to get what he wants/what his prescience sees.

Unfortunately, Frank died before the last couple books were written, but once you read Chapterhouse, I can tell you what the plan for the ending was supposed to be.

[amphibian]

I strongly suggest to end the actual reads with the Frank Herbert written ones only and then get wiki summaries of the KJA/BH hack jobs.

Glad Briar King and I agree how abysmal the hack job books are.

[Maark Abbott]

Briar King, on 12 April 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

Yep I'm curious to see if he reads the 2 "notes bks" the son and KJA wrote lol. Part of me tells him to and never read any of the other butcher jobs of theirs and part of me tells him to end with 6.

You reminded me of the Notes Books BH and KJA did and now I need to vomit.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 12 April 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

Yep I'm curious to see if he reads the 2 "notes bks" the son and KJA wrote lol. Part of me tells him to and never read any of the other butcher jobs of theirs and part of me tells him to end with 6.

amphibian, on 12 April 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

I strongly suggest to end the actual reads with the Frank Herbert written ones only and then get wiki summaries of the KJA/BH hack jobs.

Glad Briar King and I agree how abysmal the hack job books are.

Briar King, on 12 April 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

I was genuinely terrified to read those 2 bks after all the hate I heard about their House bks and other Dune sets but I couldn't resists the "from the notes of FH" line they had and I honestly didn't mind the 1st of 2. I had to pep talk myself through that last for sure.

Maark Abbott, on 12 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

Briar King, on 12 April 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

Yep I'm curious to see if he reads the 2 "notes bks" the son and KJA wrote lol. Part of me tells him to and never read any of the other butcher jobs of theirs and part of me tells him to end with 6.

You reminded me of the Notes Books BH and KJA did and now I need to vomit.

This is not very encouraging!